~stuff~Ok with the above Information in mind do these feats also allow a Non Sorcerer to take Bloodline abilities from the Wildblood Blood Lines or are those limited to the Wildblood Arch type?
I personally don't see why not... the Wildbooded Archetype creates a variation on the bloodlines, and logically your character could be a descendant of a Wildblooded sorcerer.
Question is would the spell gained in this way be considered divine spells since they use divine spell slots ?
I would guess that... yes, the spells would be considered divine. Eldritch Heritage doesn't make you into a sorcerer, it gives you some sorcerer powers due to your blood. How those powers manifest should be aligned with your character. That's in RP terms... in game mechanics terms, EH doesn't grant you arcane spell slots, so you can only cast these as divine.
Think about Cleric domain spells. A Domain spell slot is a divine slot, and if you cast a spell that's normally arcane (like fireball) that's granted from a domain, the spell becomes a divine variant.
My take: this absolutely does not work.
New Arcana adds additional spells known to your spell list for your levels as sorcerer. We would certainly agree that a sorcerer/cleric can only cast the New Arcana spells with their sorcerer spell slots, not their cleric spell slots; similarly, an Oracle with Eldritch Heritage would gain no benefit to choosing New Arcana unless she has sorcerer spell slots.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
My take: this absolutely does not work.
New Arcana adds additional spells known to your spell list for your levels as sorcerer. We would certainly agree that a sorcerer/cleric can only cast the New Arcana spells with their sorcerer spell slots, not their cleric spell slots; similarly, an Oracle with Eldritch Heritage would gain no benefit to choosing New Arcana unless she has sorcerer spell slots.
New Arcana (Ex): At 9th level, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to your list of spells known. This spell must be of a level that you are capable of casting. You can also add one additional spell at 13th level and 17th level.
Sorry Avalon, I see no mention of the restriction of as sorcerer
The feat specficially affects the character. If the sorcerer/cleric above took the feats and applied them to her cleric levels then heck yes she'd be able to cast them with her cleric slots. If she got the New Arcana for being a sorcerer 9, then she'd be 'stuck' with her sorcerer slots fueling them.
I don't see an issue with it.
My take: this absolutely does not work.
New Arcana adds additional spells known to your spell list for your levels as sorcerer. We would certainly agree that a sorcerer/cleric can only cast the New Arcana spells with their sorcerer spell slots, not their cleric spell slots; similarly, an Oracle with Eldritch Heritage would gain no benefit to choosing New Arcana unless she has sorcerer spell slots.
New Arcana (Ex): At 9th level, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to your list of spells known. This spell must be of a level that you are capable of casting. You can also add one additional spell at 13th level and 17th level.
Sorry Avalon, I see no mention of the restriction of as sorcerer
This ability is under the "Sorcerer" class description. If you take a look at the "spells" section of other class descriptions, it uses the same verbage. The "list of spells known" is the sorcerer spells known list; this is the only thing it could reasonably mean at all. If you're going to argue that "spell list" under each class description refers to any spell list and not just the one for the actual class we're talking about, you've opened up some ridiculous wackiness way beyond just the Eldrich Heritage feats.
RAW, this doesn't work, because New Arcana adds spells to your sorcerer list, which a non-sorcerer doesn't have. Unless you also have a bloodline power to give you sorcerer spell slots, your sorcerer spells known don't actually allow you to do anything (other than perhaps meet specific "spells known" prerequisites). It certainly doesn't let you cast the sorcerer spells with other spell slots.
|
I'm saying that some people (not me) might argue that a fighter or similar non-spellcaster would not be able to do it because he has no functional caster level, something that is only really given by classes. That, or something similar in thought.
My thoughts would be that while he might now KNOW the spell, without any spell slots, he has no actual way to CAST the spell.
This ability is under the "Sorcerer" class description. If you take a look at the "spells" section of other class descriptions, it uses the same verbage. The "list of spells known" is the sorcerer spells known list; this is the only thing it could reasonably mean at all. If you're going to argue that "spell list" under each class description refers to any spell list and not just the one for the actual class we're talking about, you've opened up some ridiculous wackiness way beyond just the Eldrich Heritage feats.
RAW, this doesn't work, because New Arcana adds spells to your sorcerer list, which a non-sorcerer doesn't have. Unless you also have a bloodline power to give you sorcerer spell slots, your sorcerer spells known don't actually allow you to do anything (other than perhaps meet specific "spells known" prerequisites). It certainly doesn't let you cast the sorcerer spells with other spell slots.
I completely disagree with you.
Yes, Sorcerer bloodlines are under the "Sorcerer" class description, but you are gaining access to bloodline powers due to having a history of that bloodline (rules-wise, it's from Eldritch Heritage). Thus, you have access to it.
New Arcana adds spells to your list of spells known. If you were to multi-class a sorcerer/bard, your list of spells known would mix between the two. If a spell you learned as a bard was also on the sorcerer list, what's to stop you from casting it with a sorcerer spell slot? It's a spell that you know, that simple. So when New Arcana adds to your list of known spells by pulling from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, it's not requiring that you be a sorcerer/wizard.
If a paladin picks up Unsanctioned Knowledge, that player gains the 4 spells chosen from the bard/cleric/inquisitor/oracle as known spells on his/her spell list. The feat doesn't say that you would have to have class ranks and spell slots for those classes to gain the spells, you simply gain the spells. Same thing.
If you were to multi-class a sorcerer/bard, your list of spells known would mix between the two. If a spell you learned as a bard was also on the sorcerer list, what's to stop you from casting it with a sorcerer spell slot? It's a spell that you know, that simple.
This is completely wrong. You do not, under the core rules, mix all of your "spells known" onto one list -- you have a separate "spells known" list for each class that you have levels in.
I can understand why you would disagree with my reading if you're under the mistaken impression that you can mix and match spells and slots and only have one "spells known" list for all your classes, but in Pathfinder that is not how the rules work.
If you were to multi-class a sorcerer/bard, your list of spells known would mix between the two. If a spell you learned as a bard was also on the sorcerer list, what's to stop you from casting it with a sorcerer spell slot? It's a spell that you know, that simple.This is completely wrong. You do not, under the core rules, mix all of your "spells known" onto one list -- you have a separate "spells known" list for each class that you have levels in.
I can understand why you would disagree with my reading if you're under the mistaken impression that you can mix and match spells and slots and only have one "spells known" list for all your classes, but in Pathfinder that is not how the rules work.
Could you provide a link to the text that states that spells known are divided by class, even if the spell applies to multiple classes?
I'm having trouble following the idea that an arcane caster creates blocked-off sections in his mind that prevents him from utilizing the full breadth of his knowledge.
Avalon is correct about different lists of spells known, but I disagree with him on that it cannot apply to a PC without any sorcerer casting.
-James
I would still feel better if I could see this written in the rules. Can you provide a link or direct me which section of the rules contains this information? The way you two are stating that it works defies logic.
|
I would still feel better if I could see this written in the rules. Can you provide a link or direct me which section of the rules contains this information? The way you two are stating that it works defies logic.Avalon is correct about different lists of spells known, but I disagree with him on that it cannot apply to a PC without any sorcerer casting.
-James
An easy example is the Mystic Theurge ability Combined Spells from the core rulebook. It illustrates what they've been saying.
Combined Spells (Su): A mystic theurge can prepare and cast spells from one of his spellcasting classes using the available slots from any of his other spellcasting classes.
This ability cannot be used to cast a spell at a lower level if that spell exists on both spell lists.
Blatantly put every class you have has it's own separate spell lists and slots devoted to it and these two do not interact at all. Unless an ability specifically states it adds a spell to a different classes spell list then it stays on the list it's currently on.
An easy example is the Mystic Theurge ability Combined Spells from the core rulebook. It illustrates what they've been saying.Blatantly put every class you have has it's own separate spell lists and slots devoted to it and these two do not interact at all. Unless an ability specifically states it adds a spell to a different classes spell list then it stays on the list it's currently on.
I wouldn't say that that is an easy example... the Mystic Theurge combines Arcane and Divine casting. Logically, you wouldn't be able to use a Divine spell, or a spell learned from a Divine class that also appears as an arcane spell, in an arcane slot.
For example, if you were a Cleric/Bard, you couldn't cast Eagle's Splendor from one of your Arcane spell slots unless you learned it as a bard.
On the other hand, if you are a Bard/Wizard, it shouldn't matter which class you learned the spell from. Regardless of which one, it's still the same spell, and it's still arcane.
I appreciate the example you've provided, but I hardly see that as proof of any kind to support the argument.
If I could cast Sorcerer spells with my bard slots. What do I use as my caster level? If I am a 10th level bard/1st level sorcerer and I cast a magic missile with one of my bard spell slots what is my caster level?
You ask to be shown in the rules where it says you cant do this. I would ask you to show where it says you can.
Obviously, whichever arcane slot you used to cast the spell would determine the CL. If you are a Bard 10/Sorc 1 and you cast a spell from your sorcerer slots, your CL is that of your Sorc... CL 1.
And considering how I have logic in my argument, I think the burden of proof is on you to provide the text that says I can't do this. If I'm an arcane/arcane caster and both classes share certain spells, it shouldn't matter where I learned the spell from, I learned the spell. I don't have a part of my brain specifically for ClassA and another for ClassB...
New Arcana (Ex): At 9th level, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to your list of spells known. This spell must be of a level that you are capable of casting. You can also add one additional spell at 13th level and 17th level.
I'd say as an Oracle with this, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer spell list to your sorcerer spell list of spells known (none so far), as long as the sorcerer spell is of a level that you are capable of casting (and being an Oracle, is not capable of casting any Sorcerer spells).
So does nothing.
|
|
useless argument
Though it's a stupid argument I'll bite and clarify the issue.
First off there are several hard rules you must accept and they all deal with prepping spells.First, Wizards cannot prepare any spell that is not in their spellbook
Wizards also must have access to their spellbooks to study from and sufficient light to read them.
Until he prepares spells from his spellbook, the only spells a wizard has available to cast are the ones that he already had prepared from
the previous day and has not yet used.
Sorcerers & Bards do not prepare spells or store their spells in spellbooks.
Sorcerers and bards cast arcane spells, but they do not use spellbooks or prepare spells.
So from that you can see that a wizard cannot prepare a wizard spell slot they have with a Sorcerer/Bard spell since it's not in his spellbook.
Sorcerer cannot use spells from the wizards spellbook since they don't prepare spells and are limited to only casting spells they have learned.
Adding Spells to a Sorcerer’s or Bard’s Repertoire: A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time she attains a new level in her class and never gains spells any other way.When your sorcerer or bard gains a new level, consult Table 3–4 or Table 3–15 to learn how many spells from the appropriate spell list she now knows.Repertoire: the entire range of skills or aptitudes or devices used in a particular field or occupation.
So, not only is your argument wrong it's irrelevant.
The wizard side can't prepare prepare the spells the sorcerer/bard list has since they aren't in his spellbook and the sorcerer/bard side can't cast the wizard spells since they aren't on the list of spells they have chosen to learn.The spell lists are mutually exclusive because the prep method for each slot in each class has specific requirements that the other class can't meet.
The Witch and Alchemist also have their own unique spell storage and prep requirements that no other class can provide so those slots are forbidden as well.
Divine casters are even easier.
However, a divine spellcaster’s spell selection is limited to the spells on the list for her class. Clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers have separate spell lists.
This one just flat says divine caster=X can only select divine spells that are on the divine caster=X spell list.
New Arcana (Ex): At 9th level, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to your list of spells known. This spell must be of a level that you are capable of casting. You can also add one additional spell at 13th level and 17th level.I'd say as an Oracle with this, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer spell list to your sorcerer spell list of spells known (none so far), as long as the sorcerer spell is of a level that you are capable of casting (and being an Oracle, is not capable of casting any Sorcerer spells).
So does nothing.
I really don't think this is the case.
There are plenty of examples of spells crossing from one list to another. I really don't see how this is any different.
Saying everyone has separate, distinct spell lists is a strawman as there are exceptions abound even in the Core rules.
|
|
New Arcana (Ex): At 9th level, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to your list of spells known. This spell must be of a level that you are capable of casting. You can also add one additional spell at 13th level and 17th level.I'd say as an Oracle with this, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer spell list to your sorcerer spell list of spells known (none so far), as long as the sorcerer spell is of a level that you are capable of casting (and being an Oracle, is not capable of casting any Sorcerer spells).
So does nothing.
I really don't think this is the case.
There are plenty of examples of spells crossing from one list to another. I really don't see how this is any different.
Saying everyone has separate, distinct spell lists is a strawman as there are exceptions abound even in the Core rules.
not saying I disbelieve you since I've seen you pull some obscure rules out but I'm not familiar with any class that shares a spell list with another class.
Sharing the same spells definitely but the same list I can't remember any.The few listings I've seen where you could take additional spells and add them to your spell list are usually pretty explicit and state that it's added to X class spell list or say that add to your spellcasting class that grants this ability.
Okay just gonna throw this on the fire see what people make of it since there's pretty strong views for and against.
you get bonus spell slots for having a high ability score in this case CHA gives bonus spells to both a Sorc and Oracle.
a) Can you argue that bonus spells are not class specific and can be used to cast arcane spell learnt through new arcana
b) If you firmly believe the new arcana gives you an arcane spell that you need arcane slots to cast then an Orcale10/Sorc1 , the sorc side would get bonus spell slots for having a high cha and therefore be able to cast a 2nd level arcane spell gained through new arcana.
more over as this is treated a an arcane spell with its own slot you can therefore qualify for mystic theruge.
Either the new arcana gives you a spell as prt of your divine list in which case you can cast i using divine slots as an oracle OR its an arcane spell which would allow you access to mystic thuruge with only 1 level dip into sorc.
side note
If you could get your hands on a magic item which increased your number of spell slots you could use its slots to cast any spells gained from new arcana as well
There is also an existing premise to allow spells from another spell list to be put into another.
e.g.
Magus
Greater Spell Access
The magus gains access to an expanded spell list. He learns and places 14 spells from the wizard’s spell list into his spellbook as magus spells of their wizard level. He gains two of each of the following wizard spells not on the magus spell list:
Although its spelled out here the premise and intent is that spells from one list can be incorporated into another.
Thus although not implicitly stated one way or the other I don't think its unreasonable for 3-4 feats to allow 1-3 arcane spells in a divine list, 1/3 of your general feats.
The question would you prevent a magus learning wizard spells for the same reason you won't let an Orcale learn them using Eldrich heritage ?
And if we really want to pull apart the wording as people often like to do
"New Arcana (Ex): At 9th level, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to your list of spells known. This spell must be of a level that you are capable of casting. You can also add one additional spell at 13th level and 17th level."
As an Oracle YOUR list happens to be divine
If it said "your sorcerer list" well then we wouldn't be having this discussion ;)
There is also an existing premise to allow spells from another spell list to be put into another.
e.g.
Magus
Greater Spell Access
That is but one example, yes.
Interesting premise Phasics, but the Magus ability specifically states that it allows for such a thing. Your point can just as easily be interpreted as not allowing bloodline feats to grant sorcerer spells to an oracle, simply because it doesn't specifically say that it can.
Can we get an official ruling on this? I think that is the only thing that will solve the debate.
Well you either argue on a shift in intent or you argue the can/can't
as new material is published the "intent" of should something be allowed is defined by what else exists that is similar and has been released after the item in question is being looked at.
for example should a Heavens Oracle be allowed to use this to gain Scintillating Pattern and use awesome display to knock 10+HD off a 20HD monster making it stunned and confused instead of just confused.
When a Heaven Oracle 1/ Sorc 14 can unquestionably do exactly the same thing.
The same logic applied to custom magic items, does a similar things exist ? if so does is its pricing beyond what the base rules would suggest etc etc.
vs arguing about can and can't
e.g. it doesn't say I can't charge up to OVER9000 and fire a kamehameha... ya doesn't say you can either.
(although the intent is pretty clear compared to other classes and abilities that this is unreasonable)
useless argument
So clearly I picked the wrong two classes to use as an example and you both completely missed the point.
Perhaps I should have gone with Magus/Wizard as the arcane/arcane multi-classer, since they both use spellbooks, or bard/sorcerer as they're both spontaneous (just because the bard side couldn't learn more doesn't mean that the sorcerer side couldn't use the bard spells that exist on the wizard/sorcerer chart); and cleric/wizard for the divine/arcane caster since they share a few spells but wouldn't actually "share" spells since the cleric's were of divine nature and the wizard's of arcane.
Point was, if they share a spell, caster type, and spell preparation method, it shouldn't matter where the spell was learned.
Now back to the original topic (which this discussion does actually relate to...), I'm still of the mind that what the OP was trying to do would work, and it still goes back to my original thoughts:
Game-wise, your character is gaining access to a sorcerer bloodline and its power due to having history of that bloodline. How those powers manifest is based on which bloodline powers manifest. If the powers manifest arcane spells as divine variants due to the nature of your history and the nature of how you wield magic now, then that's how it goes.
Mechanically, this means that you are gaining access to the sorcerer bloodline abilities from the Eldritch Heritage feat, then gaining spells from the sorcerer spell list and adding them to your own spell list.
|
Point was, if they share a spell, caster type, and spell preparation method, it shouldn't matter where the spell was learned.
Ahh, but it should matter because each class casts at a different caster level, depending on how many levels you take in it, and the full content of those spell lists.
Let's go with bard/sorcerer in this case. Bards get access to some spells that sorcerers get, but similarly have several spells that sorcerers don't have access to. And vice versa.
By merging those spell lists, you're allowing a character to take mostly sorcerer levels, and only a handful of bard levels, and allowing those spells gained through bard to use the best caster level available to your character.
It might make bookkeeping simpler to run it the way you're describing, but both class entries are specific about having a class specific spell list, and a specific number of spells per day they can use to cast spells from their list.
By your interpretation, a sorcerer could take all the sorcerer only spells and take the shared sorcerer/bard spells with his bard levels, so that he can cast them all with his sorcerer caster level. For those spells which appear at different spell levels for the bard/sorcerer, which spell level would you use? The sorcerer level, if you're casting them with the sorcerer class? Or the bard level, where you actually picked the spell up at?
Your interpretation can also be followed to combining the uses per day. "Show me where it says I can't..." is not a logical argument towards being allowed to do something. Especially in a rule book that describes what you CAN do, since citing everything you CANNOT do would fall far beyond the ability of any publisher. Not to mention increasing the CRB into more pages than a series of dictionaries.
Your argument is tantamount to claiming that rogue and fighter levels should stack when calculating sneak attack damage just because they both have a bab and show me where it says I can't...
Don't get me wrong, houserule it to whatever you want in your games :p However, in order to make it work legally, you must provide supporting rules citations before you can demand that others prove it doesn't work.
Back to the original topic.
Mechanically speaking, new arcana would allow you to add those sorcerer/wizard spells to your spell list. However, nothing about arcana *ironically* states that the spells are still arcane in nature. Since you're adding them to your spell list, and you can only cast divine spells, these spells would be divine in nature, though that wouldn't change how they function. Note that the reverse of this is already possible in the CRB under the creating new spells section.
You wouldn't get to cast them as arcane spells though, since you have no way to cast arcane spells.
Point was, if they share a spell, caster type, and spell preparation method, it shouldn't matter where the spell was learned.Ahh, but it should matter because each class casts at a different caster level, depending on how many levels you take in it, and the full content of those spell lists.
Let's go with bard/sorcerer in this case. Bards get access to some spells that sorcerers get, but similarly have several spells that sorcerers don't have access to. And vice versa.
By merging those spell lists, you're allowing a character to take mostly sorcerer levels, and only a handful of bard levels, and allowing those spells gained through bard to use the best caster level available to your character.
It might make bookkeeping simpler to run it the way you're describing, but both class entries are specific about having a class specific spell list, and a specific number of spells per day they can use to cast spells from their list.
By your interpretation, a sorcerer could take all the sorcerer only spells and take the shared sorcerer/bard spells with his bard levels, so that he can cast them all with his sorcerer caster level. For those spells which appear at different spell levels for the bard/sorcerer, which spell level would you use? The sorcerer level, if you're casting them with the sorcerer class? Or the bard level, where you actually picked the spell up at?Your interpretation can also be followed to combining the uses per day. "Show me where it says I can't..." is not a logical argument towards being allowed to do something. Especially in a rule book that describes what you CAN do, since citing everything you CANNOT do would fall far beyond the ability of any publisher. Not to mention increasing the CRB into more pages than a series of dictionaries.
Your argument is tantamount to claiming that rogue and fighter levels should stack when calculating sneak attack damage just because they both have a bab and show me where it says I can't...
Don't get me wrong,...
Pleas keep in mind that many of us (all of us?) are NOT arguing what you describe.
Pleas keep in mind that many of us (all of us?) are NOT arguing what you describe.
It started out as a supporting argument for what you were trying to do and took a wrong turn...
RAW or RAI, right or wrong GMs asks yourself this.
If a player asked to add 1-3 arcane spells to his divine list of known spells for the cost of 3-4 feats would you deem this an acceptable cost ?
if not what is an acceptable cost in your eyes
Off the top of my head, I can't think of any Arcane spells that would be inherently broken to give to a divine caster, though I'm sure someone could think of a few. The feat investment would be satisfactory for any game of mine, as most players would likely simply grab a few extra blaster spells not normally available to divines outside of Mysteries and Domains.
Well I personally fancy a late game summoner using animal growth on his eidolon(64 ish strength at the end baby).
eidelon is an outsider, animal growth only effects animals
The only really potent things I can think of is giving an oracle of battle access to some of the better Polymorph spells to buff themselves and take advantage of their 3/4 BAB and weapon/armor proficiencies. But considering the level they'd have to be to get access to the stuff, it's hardly any more broken than anything else a well build character of equal level could do. Divines as a whole have been dumbed down a lot from the gods they were in 3.5.
Lets break it down.
New Arcana (Ex): At 9th level, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell
Safe so far, add a spell from sorc/wiz...
list to your list of spells known.
Also seems safe. Completely agree with RD so far.
This spell must be of a level that you are capable of casting.
This is the snag line IMO, are you capable of casting a level XXX Sorc/wiz spell? Or does it just care about the pure level? The first part is easily correct. The second part I lean towards pure level being the correct way, and an Oracle with this chain gets 3 arcane spells.
Lets break it down.
New Arcana (Ex): At 9th level, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell
Safe so far, add a spell from sorc/wiz...
list to your list of spells known.
Also seems safe. Completely agree with RD so far.
This spell must be of a level that you are capable of casting.
This is the snag line IMO, are you capable of casting a level XXX Sorc/wiz spell? Or does it just care about the pure level? The first part is easily correct. The second part I lean towards pure level being the correct way, and an Oracle with this chain gets 3 arcane spells.
If we all agree you can read the 3rd part both ways then the discussion boils down to intent and is it "reasonable".
although you could also quite easily argue its something the devs never considered thus they had no intent and until they review it and FAQ its perfectly reasonable for GMs to rule it in or out for their own group.
heh oddly enough it may not even be RAW or RAI discussion
As written its easily reads both ways depending on the person
As Intended, if the devs didn't see it there was no intent to rule it in or out.
Actually here's a tangent some people might want to consider
If you have a staff with both arcane and divine spells on it the recharge requirements are as follows
a) you must know as least 1 spell that on the staff
b) you must have a spell slot of the highest level spell on the staff to sacrifice.
Staff recharging doesn't actually care where those spell slots come from as long as they are the correct level of slot.
So a staff of
Magic Missle 1 charge
Bless 1 charge
Delay'd Fireball 3 charges
A Cleric of 11th level could recharge the above staff burning a 6th level slot for the day.
This seems like a lot of angst for one cross over spell at level 11. What spell is so overpowering that three feats in it's going to be any worse than some of the domain spells. Personally I would be much more concerned about the cleric with improved familiar.
This seems like a lot of angst for one cross over spell at level 11. What spell is so overpowering that three feats in it's going to be any worse than some of the domain spells. Personally I would be much more concerned about the cleric with improved familiar.
More like 3 crossover spells.
What's so bad about a cleric with an improved familiar?
Personally, I wouldn't mind a Druid with an Improved Familiar. An animal companion AND a familiar? Sweet deal. Makes me think of the old 3.5 Arcane Hierophant PrC.
|
Most GM's I know would rule that the spells added would have to be on both the sorcerer AND the oracle class lists.Thats a pretty harsh nerfing of the feat line. I mean, it cost three feats to be at the point you can benefit from it.
I think its actually a pretty cool way to expand a classes options. A good alternative to Mystic Theurge, really.
Especially since the number of classes that can benefit is pretty open.
Spells: An oracle casts divine spells drawn from the cleric spell lists. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, an oracle must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an oracle's spell is 10 + the spell's level + the oracle's Charisma modifier.
Unless a feat or class power explicitly say that you can add spells from a list outside your normal list of spell know, you can't add spells from outside the list.
When something give you the possibility to gain a spell from outside your particular list it is always a explicit exception.
|
|
An easy example is the Mystic Theurge ability Combined Spells from the core rulebook. It illustrates what they've been saying.Blatantly put every class you have has it's own separate spell lists and slots devoted to it and these two do not interact at all. Unless an ability specifically states it adds a spell to a different classes spell list then it stays on the list it's currently on.
I wouldn't say that that is an easy example... the Mystic Theurge combines Arcane and Divine casting. Logically, you wouldn't be able to use a Divine spell, or a spell learned from a Divine class that also appears as an arcane spell, in an arcane slot.
For example, if you were a Cleric/Bard, you couldn't cast Eagle's Splendor from one of your Arcane spell slots unless you learned it as a bard.
On the other hand, if you are a Bard/Wizard, it shouldn't matter which class you learned the spell from. Regardless of which one, it's still the same spell, and it's still arcane.
I appreciate the example you've provided, but I hardly see that as proof of any kind to support the argument.
If I could cast Sorcerer spells with my bard slots. What do I use as my caster level? If I am a 10th level bard/1st level sorcerer and I cast a magic missile with one of my bard spell slots what is my caster level?
You ask to be shown in the rules where it says you cant do this. I would ask you to show where it says you can.
Obviously, whichever arcane slot you used to cast the spell would determine the CL. If you are a Bard 10/Sorc 1 and you cast a spell from your sorcerer slots, your CL is that of your Sorc... CL 1.
And considering how I have logic in my argument, I think the burden of proof is on you to provide the text that says I can't do this. If I'm an arcane/arcane caster and both classes share certain spells, it shouldn't matter where I learned the spell from, I learned the spell. I don't have a part of my brain specifically for ClassA and another for...
Wonnerfull interpretation.
As I have no limit to the number or level of spells I can add to my spellbook (with the exclusion of money and my spellcraft check), following your interpretation of the rules I would make a level 1 wizard/level 19 sorcerer, add all the existing spells to my spellbook and be capable of casting all existing spells spontaneously.
You notice some small problem with that?
|
|
Actually here's a tangent some people might want to consider
If you have a staff with both arcane and divine spells on it the recharge requirements are as follows
a) you must know as least 1 spell that on the staff
b) you must have a spell slot of the highest level spell on the staff to sacrifice.
Staff recharging doesn't actually care where those spell slots come from as long as they are the correct level of slot.
So a staff of
Magic Missle 1 charge
Bless 1 charge
Delay'd Fireball 3 chargesA Cleric of 11th level could recharge the above staff burning a 6th level slot for the day.
As for rules, a magic items powers/spells are neither arcane nor divine.
I do not have much of a problem with a character picking a sorceror/wizard spell to add to their spell list, though it does make it a somewhat more powerful ability than for the sorceror.
I would reinforce the character picking a spell a sorceror 2 levels lower could cast though, so at that point the oracle in the example could not pick her highest level spell.
Oracles have the most to gain from it, other classes would just gain an arcane spell on their spell lists or have secondary casting ability, but hardly unbalancing and could be quite flavorful depending on spell choice.
Actually here's a tangent some people might want to consider
If you have a staff with both arcane and divine spells on it the recharge requirements are as follows
a) you must know as least 1 spell that on the staff
b) you must have a spell slot of the highest level spell on the staff to sacrifice.
Staff recharging doesn't actually care where those spell slots come from as long as they are the correct level of slot.
So a staff of
Magic Missle 1 charge
Bless 1 charge
Delay'd Fireball 3 chargesA Cleric of 11th level could recharge the above staff burning a 6th level slot for the day.
As for rules, a magic items powers/spells are neither arcane nor divine.
and ? what's your point ?
|
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
Off the top of my head, I can't think of any Arcane spells that would be inherently broken to give to a divine caster, though I'm sure someone could think of a few. The feat investment would be satisfactory for any game of mine, as most players would likely simply grab a few extra blaster spells not normally available to divines outside of Mysteries and Domains.
I think the only really abusable thing would be to take Personal range spells, which could be argued are intended mostly for squishy aracne casters to have access to.
I imagine a druid casting transformation on their animal companion (using Share Spells), or a summoner on their eidolon, for example.
I'm not sure if the liberal interpretation (that it works just fine) here is all that broken, even with that concern.