What do you think of the Numerian super science rules? (Spoilers)


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

This thread is for GMs who have purchased "Dungeons of Golarion." There will be spoilers, so please stop here if you're a player.

...

One of the six mega-dungeons featured in Dungeons of Golarion is the Red Redoubt, a place packed with all sorts of Numerian technology. More importantly, I interpret it as a testing ground for rules dealing with robots, science, and other sci-fi elements in the Pathfinder campaign setting. In this thread, James Jacobs had this to say regarding these new rules:

James Jacobs wrote:
And perhaps more importantly, let us know what you think of it. Folks generally reply more quickly when they see something they don't like, and if we have 10 people hating Numerian content and posting on the boards while 1,000 people who love the content don't say a thing, we'll be more likely to assume that the content is more universally loathed than it is.

So what does everyone think?

I'll start. I love the Red Redoubt, and really appreciate the simple approach used to address technology. We don't have a bunch of new rules and subsystems - rather, "robots" are just constructs with the robot subtype, and powerful mechanical artifacts function like magical items with a few minor alterations. These elements can be easily integrated into any GM's game without having to overhaul the rules.

Furthermore, for GMs who have no interest in super science, the technological stuff can be ignored altogether. Don't want your PCs battling robots? Simply remove the robot subtype, and suddenly the bad guys in the Red Redoubt become arcane constructs just like any other golem. Think a "sonic sword" is too much? Well now it's a +1 thundering longsword. In this way, the Red Redoubt of Karamoss can function as either the high-tech laboratory of a crazed machine-mage, or the arcane workshop of a crazed golem-crafter, depending on how a GM chooses to use it.

I understand that this little preview doesn't address all the possibilities of Numerian super science, but it's an excellent start. We don't have stats for the mechanical scorpion illustrated in the Inner Sea World Guide, for example, but GMs can now officially stat up robotic soldiers. And that's pretty cool.


I enjoy seeing anything get done with Numerian super-science, and the knowledge that such information is concealed within the pags of Dungeons of Golarion just makes me all the more eager to get a copy of it.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber

I am very much looking forward to more information on this. And can't wait to see the Numeria AP come out.

The Exchange

Oh heck yes! Give me more! I didn't know this was in that book. I'm buying a copy asap.


If I had no experience of Pathfinder and you told me about the basic idea of Numeria and super science and all the rest of it, I'd expect to hate the idea on principle. Sci-Fi and fantasy don't mix, I would think.

But I love Numeria. I don't know why, but I do. Admittedly, I don't have DoG yet, but Numeria is one of my favourite places on Golarion so I'm keenly anticipating the section on the Red Redoubt.

Hurry up!

Dark Archive

gang wrote:

If I had no experience of Pathfinder and you told me about the basic idea of Numeria and super science and all the rest of it, I'd expect to hate the idea on principle. Sci-Fi and fantasy don't mix, I would think.

But I love Numeria. I don't know why, but I do. Admittedly, I don't have DoG yet, but Numeria is one of my favourite places on Golarion so I'm keenly anticipating the section on the Red Redoubt.

Hurry up!

Probably because it's literally Crashed Into the setting, rather than being an actual part of it. It implies a greater universe out there, and creates a crazy scavenger-world aesthetic in the region.

Liberty's Edge

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Numeria, to me, is METAL. Not, like, copper, but like a dude in a loincloth swinging a technoaxe at a murder-bot cyborg bear, and he's got a sexy metal lady clinging to one leg while firing eye lasers at a pterodactyl covered in skull holograms. Wait, what were we taking about?

Anyway, I like the tech in DoG, and I would love to see more Numerian science. I think that making it similar (Use Magic Device to operate, ray guns that work like wands of scorching ray, etc.) or sub-systems of (excellent work with the robot subtype!) is a lot better than trying to integrate a whole new mechanics (such as creating new skills, or creature types).


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I am all for having my science fiction crash land into my fantasy.

In Dungeons the robot subtype was cool, the expansion on one of the skymetals was awesome.


Sounds reasonable to me.

Scarab Sages

brreitz wrote:

Numeria, to me, is METAL. Not, like, copper, but like a dude in a loincloth swinging a technoaxe at a murder-bot cyborg bear, and he's got a sexy metal lady clinging to one leg while firing eye lasers at a pterodactyl covered in skull holograms. Wait, what were we taking about?

+1 to Numerian super-science, technoaxes (that totally shred), and skull hologram-covered pterodactyls.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 8

If I had made it to the final four of this year's RGP Superstar, my adventure proposal would have been set in Numeria. My round 4 entry, Apep's Head, was to test the waters. While it had its design flaws (like being in a country besides Numeria), the blending of sci-fi and fantasy seemed to polarize some people. I think my adventure proposal would have really polarized people with Mad Max style orcs, robots, and a long dead space crew.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
brreitz wrote:
Numeria, to me, is METAL. Not, like, copper, but like a dude in a loincloth swinging a technoaxe at a murder-bot cyborg bear, and he's got a sexy metal lady clinging to one leg while firing eye lasers at a pterodactyl covered in skull holograms. Wait, what were we taking about?

European power metal (Manowar and Hammerfall especially) is my inspiration for D&D in general. I feel like my Pathfinder games should be about the sorts of things metal bands sing about.

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I was probably listening to a lot of Diamond Head when I invented Numeria, so yeah, there's a certain heavy metal vibe there. Heck, the place is best known for it's [sky[metal, anyway! :)


Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber
Jonathon Vining wrote:
brreitz wrote:
Numeria, to me, is METAL. Not, like, copper, but like a dude in a loincloth swinging a technoaxe at a murder-bot cyborg bear, and he's got a sexy metal lady clinging to one leg while firing eye lasers at a pterodactyl covered in skull holograms. Wait, what were we taking about?
European power metal (Manowar and Hammerfall especially) is my inspiration for D&D in general. I feel like my Pathfinder games should be about the sorts of things metal bands sing about.

Curling?


John Benbo wrote:
If I had made it to the final four of this year's RGP Superstar, my adventure proposal would have been set in Numeria. My round 4 entry, Apep's Head, was to test the waters. While it had its design flaws (like being in a country besides Numeria), the blending of sci-fi and fantasy seemed to polarize some people. I think my adventure proposal would have really polarized people with Mad Max style orcs, robots, and a long dead space crew.

you could set something like that in a demiplane. just bury the only gateway to the realm in Numeria somewhere and let it rip. incidentally, there was an older product called 'death valley free prison' (essentially an RPG riff on the old Escape from New York movie) that I would lurve to steal ideas from while building an extradimensional weird science/magic prison dimension. orcs on scratch built dune buggies tearing around a windblown desert just appeals to me for some reason.

then there's the old Blackmoor stuff - to my knowledge that was one of the first attempts to combine science and magic. some of it good, some of it bad. All of it worth a read if you were going to try to combine genres. could be worth it just to avoid repeating certain horrible mistakes (i.e. radiance magic - what the hell guys!?).


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
John Benbo wrote:
If I had made it to the final four of this year's RGP Superstar, my adventure proposal would have been set in Numeria. My round 4 entry, Apep's Head, was to test the waters. While it had its design flaws (like being in a country besides Numeria), the blending of sci-fi and fantasy seemed to polarize some people. I think my adventure proposal would have really polarized people with Mad Max style orcs, robots, and a long dead space crew.

Would've probably gotten my vote...

That said, I hope Paizo eventually gets to covering Numeria without the direct intervention of an RPG Superstar being necessary.

Lantern Lodge

James Jacobs wrote:
And perhaps more importantly, let us know what you think of it. Folks generally reply more quickly when they see something they don't like, and if we have 10 people hating Numerian content and posting on the boards while 1,000 people who love the content don't say a thing, we'll be more likely to assume that the content is more universally loathed than it is.

+1 to Red Redoubt

The technique of Robots as a Construct type, SOnic Swords as variant magic swords, etc. is the right on,

Liberty's Edge

Dammit. This thread is making it impossible for me to wait. Dungeons of Golarion hasn't hit my FLGS yet, and knowing it has Numerian Super Science in it makes the wait unbearable. PDF here I come.

Based on what I'm reading in this thread, I think I am going to be a very happy gamer. I've written up so robots myself (anyone wants stats for R2D2 and C3PO? I've got 'em for you. They make a great present for a PC!), and I made them constructs with the robot subtype, so clearly paizo and I are thinking along the same lines.

ETA: WEDNESDAY??? I HAVE TO WAIT TIL WEDNESDAY???

Oh Paizo, you're killing me. It's like you stabbed me right in the heart.

Liberty's Edge

gang wrote:
If I had no experience of Pathfinder and you told me about the basic idea of Numeria and super science and all the rest of it, I'd expect to hate the idea on principle. Sci-Fi and fantasy don't mix, I would think.

The concept of a hard line between sci-fi and fantasy is actually a very recent development, and the very reason why Science Fiction/Fantasy exist as a genre is because the line between the two blurs the further you go back in time.

Consider H.P.Lovecraft. His stories contained elements of science -- such as Mi-Go, aliens from Pluto who transport humans (or at least theiur brains) back to their homeworld in cryocases -- that exist side by side with people who are outright described as magicians and witches.

Edgar Rice Burroughs John Carter of Mars series blends sword-fighting, epic monsters and ray blasters without batting an eye. Old comic serials like Flash Gordon and Buck Rodgers feature common fantasy tropes alongside spaceships and rocket packs. Robert E. Howard (of Conan fame) wrote Almuric, a straight up fantasy novel that starts with a scientist who has invented a matter transporter. John Norman's Gor series would make a pretty rocking D&D setting (minus the weird sex fetishes), but it only works because the planet Gor is ruled by sufficiently advanced aliens who used their flying saucers to steal humans to populate their world. Gardner F. Fox (creator of superheroes The Flash, Sandman and Hawkman, as well as the Justice Society) wrote two excellent fantasy novels (Warrior of LLarn and Thief of LLarn) that featured "magic" in the form of advanced psionics and forgotten alien technology.

Really, it's the purists who are the ones who have it all wrong. It's the hard sci-fi geeks vs the Tolkien literary romanticists who have manufactured this idea that sci-fi and fantasy are incompatible with each other, but the reality is that both genres were born in the cauldron of adventure fiction, and some of the classics works that inform modern sci-fi and fantasy seamlessly blend the two into one mind-blowingly awesome whole.

Liberty's Edge

Erik Mona wrote:

I was probably listening to a lot of Diamond Head when I invented Numeria, so yeah, there's a certain heavy metal vibe there. Heck, the place is best known for it's [sky[metal, anyway! :)

Diamond Head is fantastic. Good choice. =3


I worry that the equivalence isn't going to work. Most magic spells are measured in rounds. A 20th level Summon Monster brings something into this plane for all of one minute. On the other hand technology tends to have a more long lasting effect. How do you handle it when somebody want a bulldozer and a assembly line. I suppose I could simply make the dozer a construct.


Gailbraithe wrote:
gang wrote:
If I had no experience of Pathfinder and you told me about the basic idea of Numeria and super science and all the rest of it, I'd expect to hate the idea on principle. Sci-Fi and fantasy don't mix, I would think.

The concept of a hard line between sci-fi and fantasy is actually a very recent development, and the very reason why Science Fiction/Fantasy exist as a genre is because the line between the two blurs the further you go back in time.

Consider H.P.Lovecraft etc.

Oh, sure. I know. But those guys were writing modern (or at least contemporary stories) that blend science fiction and fantasy. What I would normally object to is an injection of science fiction into an otherwise medieval(ish)-era fantasy setting. But I don't object. Quite the opposite. I love it. Kudos to Mr Mona. Now I'm going to have to listen to Diamond Head to see what he was on.


gang wrote:
Gailbraithe wrote:
gang wrote:
If I had no experience of Pathfinder and you told me about the basic idea of Numeria and super science and all the rest of it, I'd expect to hate the idea on principle. Sci-Fi and fantasy don't mix, I would think.

The concept of a hard line between sci-fi and fantasy is actually a very recent development, and the very reason why Science Fiction/Fantasy exist as a genre is because the line between the two blurs the further you go back in time.

Consider H.P.Lovecraft etc.

Oh, sure. I know. But those guys were writing modern (or at least contemporary stories) that blend science fiction and fantasy. What I would normally object to is an injection of science fiction into an otherwise medieval(ish)-era fantasy setting. But I don't object. Quite the opposite. I love it. Kudos to Mr Mona. Now I'm going to have to listen to Diamond Head to see what he was on.

Sorry, but that's not true, see Robert Howard's "The Tower of the Elephant".


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I love write up for the Red Redoubt. Paizo seems to be publishing the supplements that I need just as I'm needing them. Last month I was in the middle of a plot line involving the cults of the Old Gods, and the Carrion Crown articles and bestiary filled that out nicely.

On the tail end of that adventure they came across some information about an unexplored crash in Numeria and decide that, since the Old Gods and their servants seem to come from the places between the stars, and this crashed craft came from arguably the same place, they could be related, or at least give them some new information on who and what they're dealing with. So, I spent the better part of a week wondering how to run a dungeon crawl through a space ship, and exactly what robots would be in PF. And then my subscription shipment went out and sent me into a frenzy of robot and super science design. I have a handful of other technological weapons patterned after the one in the write up, and am working on some new robots (including a Nanite swarm and the giant robot scorpion from the Numeria entry in the World Guide). If anyone's interested in what I came up with, I'll post it here when I'm finished.


lordzack wrote:
gang wrote:


Oh, sure. I know. But those guys were writing modern (or at least contemporary stories) that blend science fiction and fantasy. What I would normally object to is an injection of science fiction into an otherwise medieval(ish)-era fantasy setting. But I don't object. Quite the opposite. I love it. Kudos to Mr Mona. Now I'm going to have to listen to Diamond Head to see what he was on.
Sorry, but that's not true, see Robert Howard's "The Tower of the Elephant".

Oh you scamp you!

Well, yes. There is that. But on the whole, I'm right. :p

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

devil.in.mexico13 wrote:
If anyone's interested in what I came up with, I'll post it here when I'm finished.

Yes please.

Oh and when I read red redoubt, all I could think of was Karamos wants to be:

Spoiler:
Cybermen!
Dungeons of Golarion wrote:
He came to believe that organic life should give way to the lawful perfection of the machine—that by rebuilding life in the form of machinery, one could conquer disease, hunger, and aging at once.
Rise of the Cybermen wrote:


John Lumic: They were homeless, the wretched and useless, until I saved them, and gave them life eternal. And now I leave you in their capable hands. Good night, sir! Good night, Mr. President! [a Cyberman steps towards the President]
Cyberman: We have been upgraded.
The Doctor: Into what?
Cyberman: The next level of mankind. We are Human.2. Every citizen will receive a free upgrade. You will become like us.

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

lordzack wrote:


Sorry, but that's not true, see Robert Howard's "The Tower of the Elephant".

Probably my second favorite Conan story, after "Queen of the Black Coast".

Henry Kuttner is also one of my favorite authors, and he fairly seamlessly blends scientific and "magical" elements in his stories. I'm thinking specifically of The Dark World (which we published in Planet Stories) and the Mask of Circe (which is just wonderful).

Contributor

I will always be a fan of anything from Numeria. However, when it comes to DoG, I absolutely enjoyed the little there was. After Gallowspire, it was the chapter I loved most.

Crunch-wise, I was happy that the Numerian tech doesn't feel any different than any other magic items or subtypes. It's very easy to handle as a GM. Fluff-wise, our group is never opposed to such tech. Hopefully this opens the doors for more Numerian tech and clockworks in later setting based products.

Kudos on DoG as a whole, Paizo. No purchase regrets on my end. Keep up the good work.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I am trying desperately not to start a Red Redoubt PbP here after reading that chapter. So far I've held out, but the daily Will saves... eventually I'm going to roll a 1, dangit.


Shisumo wrote:
I am trying desperately not to start a Red Redoubt PbP here after reading that chapter. So far I've held out, but the daily Will saves... eventually I'm going to roll a 1, dangit.

Oh please please let me know when you fail that will save, never done a PbP before but since both my gaming groups aren't into sci-fi and fantasy mixing, I'd give it a try for Numeria


Honestly I thought I'd pass on this book until I read that there would be Numeria stuff in general (Robot template in particular).

I got the PDF, immediately read the Red Redoubt, hit the Batteries mechanic, and started to freak out.
I am still freaking out.

I need more.

Devs, I beseech you! I NEED more!

Things like:
Superscience, it's not magic so it doesn't register under Detect Magic right? Or does it?

How do you make it? Craft Superscience? Craft alchemy is kinda superscience, would that work?

What action is it to install a battery? To remove?

Is it 1 charge that lasts 10 days or 10x 1 day charges?

What is a battery's AC/Hardness/HP?

Then there are the grander issues when you combine the tidbits mentioned elsewhere...

Like just reflavoring things into tech (Potions into pills, belts of giant strength into mechanical augments), or should single use items be reflavored, but enduring items run off batteries!?

I know I'm not the only one who has bored loved ones and coworkers with my frantic speculation on the Paizo superscience rules (We can make flying helper-bots that speak old-draconian by crom!)

So please, to those who make these decisions, from the bottom of my dice bag, please release more superscience.

Think of the nerdly children...

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I for one welcome our new robotic overlords :)

Actually I'll be needing as much steampunk and superscience elements as possible before the end of my Kingmaker campaign so I'm a fan of both the clockwork and robot templates released so far for the game.

I want more though, so here's a list of stuff I'd still like to see:

Comprehensive "Super Science Equipment" rules, using Craft Ranks instead of Caster Level to craft. Steampunk stuff included.

An Engineer sub-class for the Alchemist or Summoner - complete with robot/automaton companion.

A Biologist sub-class for the Summoner - Your eidolon doesn't leave and it's a horrible aberration the likes of which should not exist in the minds of the rational thinker.

Steampunk/Superscience grafts, great steaming piston powered arms and legs: I want to build the 6 million GP man.

Advanced Alchemy - Rules for designing new alchemical items.

Rules for Construct characters, the Tin Man, brass men and later the warforged were popular choices in my group and let players enjoy archetypes unrealised by other races (think Data, Vision or Karrn).

And Many More!

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Personally, I like the rules, but adding crafting rules for super-science kinda defeats the purpose for me. It'd be like adding crafting rules for artifacts.

I don't think the PCs have to be able to do everything ... there's allowed to be some mystery out there. And I see no possible way that anyone in a medieval setting should be able to craft tech. Maybe chemical batteries, but those would be crude and prone to failure.

It's like of like saying that just because there's gunpowder, folks can create modern rifles - there's a lot more going on than stuffing some powder into a little metal can.

So - please - don't cheapen the super-science by making it something that can suddenly be out there. After all, there has to be a reason that the only source of the super-weapons is the Numerian mountain ...

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Lost Omens Campaign Setting / General Discussion / What do you think of the Numerian super science rules? (Spoilers) All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.