Help with tricky DM...


Advice


This is a TL'DR thread, and I apologize. I'm attempting to get all the details out of what I'm requesting.

Ok, so this is not a "hate on the DM" or any sort of arms race type thread. This is a difficult situation thread that is making the game difficult and not fun to play. Instead of simply quitting the game, I instead of have chosen to try one more strategy to keep myself in the game and having fun.

As a bored game that was meant to be between three people, we started a Gestalt game. Our GM is experienced and just wants us to have fun, even adding in extra boons that normal characters shouldn't get, giving us all 18's and allow Flaws for extra feats and even gives us traits. That's awesome, right? Right.

Well everyone who didn't show up that day decided they wanted in, so he let them in. However, they didn't just decide to join the game, they also exploited Pathfinder's poorly written rules on Drow Nobles, and my DM's general apathy.

They also decided to go ahead and take it further and added the advanced creature's template. I explained for a while they were wrong, but couldn't back it up fully. Finally I did research, proved it wrong with a ton of sources, and the DM still refused to make them change it.

Ok...so now I'm stuck with my puny Magus who got rules lawyered into the point he's useless. I'm being out performed in every aspect by creatures of the same "level" with ridiculous stats and bonuses and always being near death. Not only that, the party goes around proclaiming my character as a human slave and will almost kill my character just to prove they can.

They assure me it's part of the game, blah blah blah. The DM simply states the game isn't for me if I can't play in that type of setting and enjoy the game.

Oh, the kicker is that the DM states this isn't Golarian so the drow aren't hunted or hated.

So now the question:
I want to bring in a new character that is more up to par to these ones, but not in the same trick. I don't want to be a Drow noble, but instead I want to use semi-legal or misread rule tricks to create an overtly powerful character.

This isn't to be a dick or prove I'm better. It's simply because this is a power-gaming encouraged game, and I currently am not doing so. I've used the argument the developers have stated the Drow Noble should have a sort of LA, but they don't care. So if that's the case, I'd like to play on their rules. I'm just not devious or rulesbreaking enough to do that.

SHORT VERSION:
DM is allowing Drow Nobles without level adjust, my legitimately made character in a non-golarion custom Gestalt setting is basically getting beaten to the point of no-longer being fun.
Using similiar tactics as playing a race that shouldn't be played but can be arguably used due to poor wording...I want a character that will be on par with them or better. If someone knows one...

This is for fun, so if you want to lecture me, please just don't post. I'm curious to see what people come up with.

Estimated level should be around 4 with Gestalt (best of two classes) build.


Well, you could take advantage of the Gestalt and the all 18's to play some of the more MAD classes. Combine them for more fun.

Monk/Magus for flurry of touch spells might be fun. You'd have good saves, a decent AC, mobility, a couple bonus feats, and some solid damage output.

Barbarian/Alchemist would get you some pretty crazy Strength.

Synthesist Summoner/Alchemist (Mindchemist) would let you have all your stats quite high.

Monk/Paladin for even more absurd saves and flurry of smites.

Fighter with any combat class. Fighter/Rogue, Fighter/Ranger, Fighter/Paladin. Take the fighter feat advantage and make it work for a class/build that might normally be feat starved.

Just a few thoughts off the top of my head.


I want to play a Monk/Paladin, but my stats aren't as high as theres and they're anti-human, which is my preferred race.

Also, I am a Magus/Druid right now, but got rules lawyered into not being able to cast more than one spell at a time. So how would a flurry of Touch Spells work? They argued when I was using Shocking grasp twice a round....which I could actually be wrong about. It made sense when they said it.

Dark Archive

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Never choose to build a 'counter character', or whatever you want to call it.

Instead, play your existing character, fueled by the hatred of drow. They might not be evil in your DM's world, but they're dicks to you. Voluntarily obey them, while becoming more inept over time at what you should be good at (if you're the Wizard, memorize poor spells because you "thought it would be a good idea"--speak convincingly as a player, if need be.) and maintain your character's quiet hatred until it can come to a proper fruition. Hopefully you can "forget" to heal someone, or have something you deem more important to do, while they lay dying.

Perhaps most importantly, be fair. If they cast a spell to read your thoughts, blatantly tell them your character is thinking about stabbing them, or whatever other flavorful imagery you can come up with. If they kill you for that, so be it. Die with a smile on your face.

It's fun to play a character who keeps their enemies closest.

It's not fun to play an awesome new character who dies quickly anyway, because the DM makes poor decisions. (The other probable route.)


Flurry of Shocking Grasp isn't legit, but Chill Touch is 1 charge per caster level. You could combine Spell Combat + Spellstrike + Flurry + ki point to potentially burn all 4 charges in a round.

As for not playing a human, you could just play a half-orc or half-elf. They generally tend to be nearly as good (or better) at most classes than a human. Or play something like a Tiefling or Aasimar. Aasimar Monk/Paladin would be pretty potent, and make a decent amount of sense from a roleplay perspective.


Play an Advanced Aasimiar Half-Dragon Monk/Rogue


Also a very good suggestion. But they don't "need" my character in any way. My damage output doesn't do enough on its own to make them worry about not having me around. My healing doesn't bother them as they have an Oracle/Cleric heal battery sitting around...they find traps, etc. It's a party of 6 as it is. My character can't really put them into a situation like that, and is more likely to end up in that situation himself.

And the off-hand of leading them to their deaths is probably not likely either. But then-again, once a bad guy has been fully introduced, I'm sure I'll be given a chance to do something.

I don't really want to build a counter-character, but I am curious to see what builds are up here in case I do. I have a higher HD advantage and a much higher gold advantage. But NOTHING is preventing them from taking it from me.


Hyperion-Sanctum wrote:
Play an Advanced Aasimiar Half-Dragon Monk/Rogue

I don't think I've got enough levels to do that. That's +3...well maybe I do huh...that would be fun.


If he's not applying a level adjustment to Advanced Drow Nobles, then he shouldn't apply them to a Half Dragon. Hell, I'm pretty sure you can stack multiple Half templates. An Advanced Half Dragon (gold), Half Celestial Aasimar Paladin/Monk would be a badass.


Vistarius wrote:
Hyperion-Sanctum wrote:
Play an Advanced Aasimiar Half-Dragon Monk/Rogue
I don't think I've got enough levels to do that. That's +3...well maybe I do huh...that would be fun.

Flurry of Blows + Sneak Attack is insanity. And with 18s in your beginning stats, you have 30, 22, 28, 24, 24, 26 before any items are applied.


Hyperion-Sanctum wrote:
Vistarius wrote:
Hyperion-Sanctum wrote:
Play an Advanced Aasimiar Half-Dragon Monk/Rogue
I don't think I've got enough levels to do that. That's +3...well maybe I do huh...that would be fun.
Flurry of Blows + Sneak Attack is insanity. And with 18s in your beginning stats, you have 30, 22, 28, 24, 24, 26 before any items are applied.

That's pretty awesome, but the majority of his enemies are constructs. he loves constructs.

But, I may go with it just for the awesome implications. And while he SHOULDN'T apply it, he probably will. It's just so poorly written for Drow Noble, they got away with it.


Vistarius wrote:
Hyperion-Sanctum wrote:
Vistarius wrote:
Hyperion-Sanctum wrote:
Play an Advanced Aasimiar Half-Dragon Monk/Rogue
I don't think I've got enough levels to do that. That's +3...well maybe I do huh...that would be fun.
Flurry of Blows + Sneak Attack is insanity. And with 18s in your beginning stats, you have 30, 22, 28, 24, 24, 26 before any items are applied.

That's pretty awesome, but the majority of his enemies are constructs. he loves constructs.

But, I may go with it just for the awesome implications. And while he SHOULDN'T apply it, he probably will. It's just so poorly written for Drow Noble, they got away with it.

in Pathfinder, you can sneak attack a construct

and yes, by rules you can stack multiple half-templates. Half-Dragon/Celestial/Fiend, although there are printed CR adjustments for them.


No you can't...unless I'm missing something.


Vistarius wrote:
No you can't...unless I'm missing something.

indeed you CAN

3.x - no
pathfinder - yes


If he insists on adding a penalty, then "Gestalt" the adjustment with another race with an adjustment? I like my Half-Dragon, Half-Celestial idea, lol.

Str 30
Dex 20
Con 26
Int 22
Wis 24
Cha 26

+5 NA, Darkvision, Low Light Vision, fly (60), +4 on saves vs poison, resist acid 10, cold 10, electricity 10. Fire immunity, DR 5/magic, SR, claw claw bite, breath weapon, immunity to sleep and paralysis.


Hyperion-Sanctum wrote:
Vistarius wrote:
No you can't...unless I'm missing something.

indeed you CAN

3.x - no
pathfinder - yes

Holy crap. You can. LOL very awesome.


SunsetPsychosis wrote:

If he insists on adding a penalty, then "Gestalt" the adjustment with another race with an adjustment? I like my Half-Dragon, Half-Celestial idea, lol.

Str 30
Dex 20
Con 26
Int 22
Wis 24
Cha 26

+5 NA, Darkvision, Low Light Vision, fly (60), +4 on saves vs poison, resist acid 10, cold 10, electricity 10. Fire immunity, DR 5/magic, SR, claw claw bite, breath weapon, immunity to sleep and paralysis.

Technically I should be able to gestalt the penalty, but he didn't allow them to do it with the advanced creature template. Though that's a bit different. I'll have to create the character and see what he says. And then surprise him when I sneak attack and critical hit his constructs.

Dark Archive

Play Cleric up to 7th level.
Alignment
LN / CN / N or any evil alignment

- Get a Candle of invocation (save the gold for it) if he is going lite on gold. Spells you need are Magic circle against Good (bind option) and Dimensional Anchor. Use them with the candle (gate option) to gate in 13 HD Noble Vizier (Noble Djinn) C-G alignment. He will be trapped in the circle. They grant three wishes to any being (nongenies only) who captures them.

Wish
1. ask for another candle
2. ?
3. ?

*** Just remember to stay under the window of using a wish to produce greater effects. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM's discretion.)

SRD:Candle of Invocation

Aura strong conjuration; CL 17th

Slot —; Price 8,400 gp; Weight 1/2 lb.

Candle of Invocation: Each of these special tapers is dedicated to one of the nine alignments. Simply burning the candle generates a favorable aura for the individual so doing if the candle’s alignment matches that of the character. Characters of the same alignment as the burning candle add a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks while within 30 feet of the flame.
A cleric whose alignment matches the candle’s operates as if two levels higher for purposes of determining spells per day if he burns the candle during or just prior to his spell preparation time. He can even cast spells normally unavailable to him, as if he were of that higher level, but only so long as the candle continues to burn. Except in special cases (see below), a candle burns for 4 hours.

Here is the important part

In addition, burning a candle also allows the owner to cast a gate spell, the respondent being of the same alignment as the candle, but the taper is immediately consumed in the process. It is possible to extinguish the candle simply by blowing it out, so users often place it in a lantern to protect it from drafts and the like. Doing this doesn’t interfere with its magical properties.


I remember that candle from 3.x I'm shocked they didn't fix it. That's another useful item to remember. Hehe.


if you want to be a dick with gestalt, take 2 prestige classes from 3.5 that are made for multiclassing the same thing.

However I would just try to have fun, I believe that game will run to an pretty fast, because allowed munchkinism doesn't make much fun. However it will probably be a lesson well learned at the end.

Dark Archive

Vistarius wrote:

Also a very good suggestion. But they don't "need" my character in any way. My damage output doesn't do enough on its own to make them worry about not having me around. My healing doesn't bother them as they have an Oracle/Cleric heal battery sitting around...they find traps, etc. It's a party of 6 as it is. My character can't really put them into a situation like that, and is more likely to end up in that situation himself.

And the off-hand of leading them to their deaths is probably not likely either. But then-again, once a bad guy has been fully introduced, I'm sure I'll be given a chance to do something.

I don't really want to build a counter-character, but I am curious to see what builds are up here in case I do. I have a higher HD advantage and a much higher gold advantage. But NOTHING is preventing them from taking it from me.

A gestalt party of 6 characters with uberstats and a GM that selectively breaks rules?

You should do something better: anything else.

Sczarni

Players that broke character generation rules, are jerks, nearly kill your character, with an apathetic gm?

Go play Fallout: New Vegas, or learn how to play the harmonica.

Basically, anything but this farce of a game.


Honestly...I really should.

Last time this happened I spent about a week breaking a 3.5 character when the GM selectively gave people the Paragon Template from 3.5 (With a +11 LA of course). It resulted in everyone pissed off when I couldn't die because I'd basically spent every waking hour (not something I should be saying lol) to do it.

This will probably just escalate into a "I can break the game better than you" contest.

The DM still says I'm wrong which is the part that bothers me the most. It's very obvious the Drow Nobles should have LA.

But...with the Drow effectively having a CR equal to class levels, they feel that is their ECL, they don't realize that CR= ECL-1 so they would have a "blank" level there. BUT that being said, it shouldn't be hard for me to drop the LA on both Half-Dragon and Half-Celestial.

If I still feel like fighting their B.S. Rules. He says the developers don't know what they're talking about (which doesn't help at how often I personally have called out the developers). So unless it's written and spelled out clearer in the beastiary or other rules...I'm just not going to get this argument settled.

Silver Crusade

Sounds like IC bullying to me. They are using their characters to basically treat you like dirt.

There is a simple procedure that you should go through.

1) Speak to your GM. It's his job to make sure that everybody is having fun after all. Explain that you feel that the two new characters are basically acting like jerks and the only reason that you have not acted until this point is that you don't want to start PvP. If he tells you to sort it out IC then warn him that he might not like your actions.

2) If the GM tells you to sort it out IC. Wait until they are asleep. Shocking Grasp Coup de Grace. I don't care how tough you are, you aint surviving that on anything less than a 20.

3) Alternatively, if you are playing a good character just leave and take all their stuff with you. Then sell their equipment and give the money to an orphanage.

4) If you are playing a Lawful Good character have the Drow arrested for assault.

Don't try to out arms race them. It never works.


FallofCamelot wrote:

Sounds like IC bullying to me. They are using their characters to basically treat you like dirt.

There is a simple procedure that you should go through.

1) Speak to your GM. It's his job to make sure that everybody is having fun after all. Explain that you feel that the two new characters are basically acting like jerks and the only reason that you have not acted until this point is that you don't want to start PvP. If he tells you to sort it out IC then warn him that he might not like your actions.

2) If the GM tells you to sort it out IC. Wait until they are asleep. Shocking Grasp Coup de Grace. I don't care how tough you are, you aint surviving that on anything less than a 20.

3) Alternatively, if you are playing a good character just leave and take all their stuff with you. Then sell their equipment and give the money to an orphanage.

4) If you are playing a Lawful Good character have the Drow arrested for assault.

Don't try to out arms race them. It never works.

Actually, everyone remade characters except for me. I'm the only one NOT playing a Drow Noble, and only one of them decided not to take Advanced Template.

So yeah, I talked to him, and he offered my an extra level (2 levels) technically out of it. Which is why I've decided to make a new character, because a human druid/magus quite simply isn't able to catch up even with an extra level ahead of them. So I'll probably go with both suggestions.

I'll try to work with the show-boating PC's, or simply wait for a moment to strike against them. If it gets any worse, I'll simply remake using the extra level(s) provided for me and we can try it as an arms race in which at the end I think we can all simply agree we're here to have fun. But if not...I've got other stuff to do.

Thanks for the advice. More advice will always be helpful though.

Scarab Sages

The thing is... there's no *settling* this argument.

Your dm thinks they shouldn't have a level adjustment. Or maybe he doesn't want to go back through and tell everyone to subtract levels.

You (and the devs) think they should have one.

A difference of opinion can be discussed, but you can never prove one opinion over another. If your dm ignores the sources you cite, then don't count on winning this fight.

My first suggestion, as far as cheese goes, would be to involve the reincarnate spell. Just toss it in with some trite rp reason.

Then you can max out your mental stats, and reincarnate as whatever you want. Note that the reincarnate chart has a roll of 100 as being Other(GM's choice), so pick the race you want and bring it to the table. After all, you're dm'ing the creation of your character.

And I do mean ANY race. Perhaps some kind of demon. Drow do, after all, worship demons. Really. It says so in the bestiary.

The marilith demon looks like a good choice for the reincarnate spell. It's cr 17... but reincarnate doesn't change your cr.

Or possibly a matured Nabasu demon. Let's assume... the maximum of 20 growth points.

That would be +20 to pretty much all the rolls, +10 to natural armor, sr, and it gains the advanced and giant simple templates.

Of course, this isn't min-maxing so much as shoving the book over a pinball game and making it squeal. But hey, why not? :p


Lazy GM.

PRD wrote:
GMs should carefully consider any monster PCs in their groups. Some creatures are simply not suitable for play as PCs, due to their powers or role in the game. As monster characters progress, GMs should closely monitor whether such characters are disruptive or abusive to the rules and modify them as needed to improve play.

That should be all you need.


Advanced Aasimar Werewolf.

Sovereign Court

Vistarius wrote:


As a bored game that was meant to be between three people, we started a Gestalt game. Our GM is experienced and just wants us to have fun, even adding in extra boons that normal characters shouldn't get, giving us all 18's and allow Flaws for extra feats and even gives us traits. That's awesome, right? Right.

For me? No not really awesome but some people really like those types of games meh. This is however, thread number 123456789 where a game that allowed Drow noble PCs caused a player to run to the forums asking what to do. I dont know what it is about Drow noble PCs. I am not sure anyone has had positive experiences with DNs but that's an entirely different topic.

I'm going to come at this the same way I would any group. It sounds like these guys are having a joke at your expense. If the players and GM do not care that your PC is gimped and make a running joke of it, you may need to find another game. I dont recommend giving them a "taste of their own medicine."

How well do you know them? Maybe this is a simple misunderstanding and you arrived at the game with a character built for what you thought was an entirely different game? If so, I say rebuild and go for it. I can see some people having a good laugh about the "slave" thing but from your post I cant tell if it was a table wide joke, yourself included, or a table of gamers treating the odd man out like a crap.

Scarab Sages

Vistarius wrote:
As a bored game that was meant to be between three people, we started a Gestalt game. Our GM is experienced and just wants us to have fun, even adding in extra boons that normal characters shouldn't get, giving us all 18's and allow Flaws for extra feats and even gives us traits. That's awesome, right? Right.

Sounds like you might be best waiting for the "experiment" to end. Wait for them to start a serious game again and jump back in.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Quite frankly, playing an arms race with munchkin players in a game overseen by a DM who can't bother to moderate it properly brings to mind one thing:

Summer is that time of year where marginal games get passed aside for more fun activities.

A two or three month break may be just what you need.


Drow noble isn't really a PC race at all (and I don't think the rules are poorly written).

This game sounds like an overpowered train wreck no matter the GM's level of experience. I'd quit it in a heartbeat.


Cartigan wrote:
Advanced Aasimar Werewolf.

Paladin/Sorcerer - Dragon Disciple!


Evil Lincoln wrote:

Drow noble isn't really a PC race at all (and I don't think the rules are poorly written).

This game sounds like an overpowered train wreck no matter the GM's level of experience. I'd quit it in a heartbeat.

Well in the other game I've played with this DM, he's pretty well known for basically not caring enough and just letting things go. The newcomers aren't in any games that I run and I won't let them be, but he lets them in his. So what happens is, if I make a mistake, I get belittled and told I'm wrong, but when they are wrong, they won't admit it and the DM simply won't get involved, so it makes for a difficult game. However, they're having fun and most of them are still my friends and I would like to enjoy the game as well. So like I said, I'm not trying to outdo them as much as join in on the fun that I apparently am missing.

I'm sure it sounds like more headache than it's worth, but I'm going to at least attempt it. So here is the build I have made completely cheesy.

Spoiler:

Mercurian Dawn-Bringer
Half-Celestial Half-Dragon Aasimar Young Advanced
Child-Small Size

Paladin/Monk
STR: 30 (18+8+4-4+4)
Con: 26 (18+6+2-4+4)
Dex: 30 (18+4+4+4)
Int: 26 (18+2+2+4)
Wis: 30 (18+4+2+4)
Cha: 28 (18+2+2+2+4)

Young: Rebuild Rules: Size decrease by one category; AC reduce natural armor by –2 (minimum +0); Attacks decrease damage dice by 1 step; Ability Scores –4 Strength, –4 Con, +4 size bonus to Dex.

Advanced:
Rebuild Rules: AC increase natural armor by +2; Ability Scores +4 to all ability scores.

AC (+6 Natral/size) + (20 dex/wisdom)
+4 natural Armor from Dragon
+1 Half Celestial
-2 Young
+1 for small
+2 for Advanced
+10 Dex
+10 Wisdom

With 1 level of Paladin/Monk
Total CR= (+1+2+0-1+1)= CR 3

Damage will be fairly weak with the low die, but a flurry of blows that will almost constantly hit, an impossibly high AC and strength damage going into the attacks should make me formidable. Smite and flurry of blows should balance me vs. Evil and when I get divine grace, I'll be even more ridiculous.


Vistarius wrote:
Evil Lincoln wrote:

Drow noble isn't really a PC race at all (and I don't think the rules are poorly written).

This game sounds like an overpowered train wreck no matter the GM's level of experience. I'd quit it in a heartbeat.

Well in the other game I've played with this DM, he's pretty well known for basically not caring enough and just letting things go. The newcomers aren't in any games that I run and I won't let them be, but he lets them in his. So what happens is, if I make a mistake, I get belittled and told I'm wrong, but when they are wrong, they won't admit it and the DM simply won't get involved, so it makes for a difficult game. However, they're having fun and most of them are still my friends and I would like to enjoy the game as well. So like I said, I'm not trying to outdo them as much as join in on the fun that I apparently am missing.

I'm sure it sounds like more headache than it's worth, but I'm going to at least attempt it. So here is the build I have made completely cheesy.

** spoiler omitted **

That is suitably ridiculous, yes.


Now if I could just add the Crystalline Creature in there...I'd be a disco ball of Drow defeating light lol.

Dark Archive

Vistarius wrote:
Now if I could just add the Crystalline Creature in there...I'd be a disco ball of Drow defeating light lol.

Pretty amusing. But my money is on this DM pulling the rules out from under you when you need them most, again.

Do tell us how it turns out.


Vistarius wrote:
I remember that candle from 3.x I'm shocked they didn't fix it. That's another useful item to remember. Hehe.

There is an entire debate thread with several ideas on how the idea is almost impossible to stop without metagaming by the GM. Unless the GM really knows the rules he is out of luck.


Well I decided to go ahead and remove Advanced and add in Crystaline creature. With Aasimar, I can turn myself into a brilliant ball of light that permanently blinds people. Hehe....


I can already see the GM arguing that what you have done and what they are doing is different because drow noble is a PC race in the bestiary.

You should just be a drow noble too. Or ask him what else you can be and bring up the half-dragon, and then half-celestial, and then both. Just showing up with this character might not earn you the desired reaction.

I'm just saying that you are arguing on the side of logic versus people who are illogical. If you try to appeal to them by being illogical, expect them to react illogically. The only way to win is not to play.


Bring nacho Chips and wine cause this game soungd realy cheesey


Very simple answer: Find a Game Group who are worth playing with...

Scarab Sages

If you aren't going to be a drow noble, you could always fight fire with fire and play an Aasimar cleric with the Sun domain and taking items that let you cast daylight as many times a day as possible. Also, improved intiative feats and traits. Try to go first every battle and cast daylight, then recast as necessary until every battlefield is bright and sunny.


I talked to the DM, and he approved it. Just warned me that 1HD kinda puts me at a lower advantage, but the ridiculous AC is worth it. He's fine when I can get him aside, it's when there's groups of people that it isn't fine. So we'll see how it goes.

Yes it's cheesy, but sometimes that can be fun.


I kinda got hooked to this munchkin galore - how did it turn out?

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