For the Concentration skill, I would just use the character's Initiator level (in place of caster level) and constitution modifier (in place of spellcasting stat modifier). That could be extended to prestige class prerequisites -- any prerequisite of "Concentration x ranks" would conver to "Initiator level x". I think that approach should cover nearly all Book of 9 Swords references to the Concentration skill.
I would recommend against this method of replacing the concentration skill. It is not on par with a normal skill check (which can be enhanced in a number of ways this cannot) and there are other skills still present in other manuevers and powers, which retain these options. Whatever you replace concentration with should be another skill and not something else.
For the Concentration skill, I would just use the character's Initiator level (in place of caster level) and constitution modifier (in place of spellcasting stat modifier). That could be extended to prestige class prerequisites -- any prerequisite of "Concentration x ranks" would conver to "Initiator level x". I think that approach should cover nearly all Book of 9 Swords references to the Concentration skill.
It wouldn't, at all. Or, to be more specific, you could do that, but it would be a horrible nerf to the Diamond Mind discipline. When you use maneuvers that utilize the Concentration skill, you're rolling the skill bonus in place of a save, or against an opponent's AC. Using initiator level would be significantly weaker, and it would also be off-theme--initiator level is nowhere near as evocative of the precise, perceptive, intelligent warrior that the discipline embodies as an appropriate skill.
For the Concentration skill, I would just use the character's Initiator level (in place of caster level) and constitution modifier (in place of spellcasting stat modifier). That could be extended to prestige class prerequisites -- any prerequisite of "Concentration x ranks" would conver to "Initiator level x". I think that approach should cover nearly all Book of 9 Swords references to the Concentration skill.The thing is that each discipline has an associated skill which is affected by certain feats/class abilities and rolled in certain maneuvers. For example, Setting Sun uses Sense Motive, Devoted Spirit uses Intimidate, and Diamond Mind uses Concentration - and none of the disciplines depend as much on the associated skill as Diamond Mind does (probably because the other skills have actual use for a melee type - Concentration doesn't). So the removal of Concentration in Pathfinder is unfortunate for the Warblade. There's also the issue others mentioned, that skills can get some pretty heavy-duty boosts that wouldn't work if Concentration rolls were based on level instead.
Making it a PF Concentration check isn't all that bad, as long as the Warblade can assign the 'casting stat'. That alone would generally make up for losing the +3 skill points from 3.5.
Now, if you're talking about not being able to cheaply boost the Concentration mods to auto-save stuff (i.e. a +20 Ring of Concentration with +28 from level and Str = autosave on a 1), that's probably a good thing. Have 'em take Skill Focus: Concentration or something if they want to raise it. It's still going to scale faster then any normal saving throw. At level 10 when it doubles, that's reasonable 10 Ranks +6 Str +6 skill focus is +22 to the save. At level 20 it's +20 +10 +6, for +36 to save, and auto-passing against an optimized caster.
===Aelryinth
===Aelryinth
...You can't take Skill Focus: Concentration in Pathfinder, because Concentration isn't a skill.
Rolling d20+level+ability bonus is a significant nerf compared to d20+skill bonus.
That is what I forgot in my original suggestion -- you would use constitution to modify the concentration check only if no other stat seems appropriate. In most cases, the action associated with the concentration check would suggest an appropriate ability score modifier.
Also, since you have to go into house rule territory to integrate Book of 9 Swords with Pathfinder anyway -- you could create a house rule to enable feats like Combat Casting and Ultimate Concentration to modify concentration checks associated with martial disciplines -- I think that together they could be regarded as giving a total bonus of +6, which is more than enough to boost the concentration check bonus to be competititive with a standard skill check bonus.
I must admit that I originally was looking at the limited case of dealing with the Concentration skill in prestige class prerequisites -- and in particular one case where the Concentration skill ranks were the sole prerequisite that set the minimum level at which the prestige class could be taken, so simply ignoring that prerequisite was not an option.
I suppose another possibility would be to use the Martial Lore skill for this purpose, but then you would have less flexibility in terms of which stat to use to modify the check (as I think that skill is intelligence based).
...You can't take Skill Focus: Concentration in Pathfinder, because Concentration isn't a skill.
Rolling d20+level+ability bonus is a significant nerf compared to d20+skill bonus.
Actually, they are EXACTLY THE SAME if you ignore magic items that can modify Skill Checks. Especially since Conc was a Con Skill, which tended to be significantly less then your best ability mod, and so takes care of the 3.5 +3 bonus (same as for spellcasters!)
===Aelryinth
Actually, they are EXACTLY THE SAME if you ignore magic items that can modify Skill Checks. Especially since Conc was a Con Skill, which tended to be significantly less then your best ability mod, and so takes care of the 3.5 +3 bonus (same as for spellcasters!)
===Aelryinth
We are using this exact method in our Pathfinder game for my Warblade (Initiator Level + Con) and it has worked out just fine so far. That said, I am only up to level 6 so far so I am sure there will be some suprises as I level up.
We are however using 3.5 Material and allow any feat or ability that normally boosts Concentration to work for this as well (such as Traits).
While it is a general reduction from the overal power in 3.5 it is more balanced so far.
...You can't take Skill Focus: Concentration in Pathfinder, because Concentration isn't a skill.
Rolling d20+level+ability bonus is a significant nerf compared to d20+skill bonus.
Actually, they are EXACTLY THE SAME if you ignore magic items that can modify Skill Checks. Especially since Conc was a Con Skill, which tended to be significantly less then your best ability mod, and so takes care of the 3.5 +3 bonus (same as for spellcasters!)
===Aelryinth
If you ignore magic items, certain spells, feats, traits, and the +3 bonus for putting ranks in a class skill--that is to say the majority of things that go into determining a skill bonus, then yes, that's sort of true. Which is like saying a Masterwork bastard sword is just as good as Serithtial, if you ignore the +4 Holy Zon-Kuthon Bane enhancements, that it counts as cold iron and silver, can be any type of sword, and is an intelligent weapon that can cast some very useful spells on its wielder.
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It's kind of strange to find a BO9S junkie who can't get into 4E.You've found two then. Double strangeness!
+1! Treble Strangeness! I loved BO9S, and really don't see any of those classes being overpowered in PF.
If you ignore magic items, certain spells, feats, traits, and the +3 bonus for putting ranks in a class skill--that is to say the majority of things that go into determining a skill bonus, then yes, that's sort of true. Which is like saying a Masterwork bastard sword is just as good as Serithtial, if you ignore the +4 Holy Zon-Kuthon Bane enhancements, that it counts as cold iron and silver, can be any type of sword, and is an intelligent weapon that can cast some very useful spells on its wielder....You can't take Skill Focus: Concentration in Pathfinder, because Concentration isn't a skill.
Rolling d20+level+ability bonus is a significant nerf compared to d20+skill bonus.
Actually, they are EXACTLY THE SAME if you ignore magic items that can modify Skill Checks. Especially since Conc was a Con Skill, which tended to be significantly less then your best ability mod, and so takes care of the 3.5 +3 bonus (same as for spellcasters!)
===Aelryinth
i didn't ignore any of those.
The +3 is taken up by using your best ability score instead of Constitution.PF doesn't have a lot of the skill-breaking magic that 3.5 does. Thus, you can't buy a +20 Conc item and autopass all saves by level 10. Since those items didn't port over anyways, it's a moot point to refer to them.
As for feats, easy enough to make an analogue to Combat Concentration or skill focus/conc for the purpose. You're already importing the mechanic, a little additional DM fiat isn't going to hurt.
So, in other words, they work out exactly the same. Allowing the Magic in that further modifies the ability is a totally seperate issue of balance.
===Aelryinth
Sorry for the necro, but I'm starting to convert Bo9S to Pathfinder, starting with the Crusader, who I'll unleash against my players in a tournament final. As the majority of you, I think the classes are balanced to PF classes (just some tweaks to some maneuvers, but that's still from the original book). Did the skill conversion suggested in the other thread, but after seeing the class table some things come to my mind:
- The class has some "dead levels", or not, if you take in account new maneuvers and stances knows (much akin to casters). Is that a problem, or not?
- The Smite ability. Not sure if I should convert it to function as Pf Paladin's Smite Evil, as I have some doubts about the balance (not much, as there's so few uses/day). Or if I should let it as it is, only one strike, and increases the uses/day (solving in the same time part of the problem with "dead levels").
Any more thoughts?
I enjoyed the concept of ToB and 4th Ed, but I thought the execution of both was a bit off. Pathfinder is the spiritual successor to 3.5, and I believe that the ToB are closer in power to PF classes. One thing I would certainly change is that maneuvers should be 1/day like a caster. A war blade using stone mountain/dragon/ whatever every encounter was ridiculous.
They combined the two damage dealing philosophies in broken proportions. They pretty much set you up for static damage bonuses as well as receiving damage from multiple dice. The war blade was the worst, with his d12 hit points he out shone a gestalt fighter/barbarian... In fact all the ToB classes were on a power level with gestalt characters.
That gap has narrowed some with PF, but there are still some stepps to go as of yet.
I agree with Byrdology above me. I hate to disagree with so many people but ToB classes as are are NOT good to run in a Pathfinder game as is due to one big issue: they go on and on with little penalty. When I first started running PF I had one player run in with a Swordsage- in game and in dungeons especially he would clear a room and have full resources a few seconds later. For everyone else in the party this was not the case. Wizard went low on spells, monks ran out of ki- Hell the fighter ran up on arrows. But the Swordsage? 'We can't rest; I can keep going so you'd better!'
Listen, the ToB has great material- except no limits. So you just need to fix this. I did giving the different classes maneuvers per day like spells and giving them ki polls that they could use like a Magnus's arcane pool. However my player freaked after the change and refused to play the class after word so I can't say for a fact the changed worked. Still, if you give me time to dig up these remakes of mine I would be willing to hand them over to the community as a hole.
If your player base freaked and wouldn't touch these flavourful and powerful classes, then I would be slightly concerned that the "balance" attempt was a bridge too far.
They freaked because HE had to slow down like the others. Frankly save for him and another who was getting ready to roll a Crusader, everyone liked and preferred the rules.
If you made the maneuvers 1/day (even with a limited recharge) it would balance quite well. There are some great ideas in there that have tons of potential otherwise no one would have enjoyed the book at all. Swordsage was the best answer for an armored monk that I have ever found, and I loved all the flavor. The crusader needed the most tweaks to make it more playable, or even understandable, but it was a very solid class at its core. The war blade was the worst, but some of the adjustments above seem to balance the worst parts of it. Personally I hope paizo gets a green light to revamp this book because I think that with a balanced hand, the ToB would be an excellent offering.
Listen, the ToB has great material- except no limits. So you just need to fix this. I did giving the different classes maneuvers per day like spells and giving them ki polls that they could use like a Magnus's arcane pool. However my player freaked after the change and refused to play the class after word so I can't say for a fact the changed worked. Still, if you give me time to dig up these remakes of mine I would be willing to hand them over to the community as a hole.
If you have them on hand could you post those conversions for the boards to peruse?
I think the best way to handle ToB is one of two ways.
1: Disallow the classes and only allow the maneuvers and stances to be taken via the feats.
2: Allow the classes but remove the in combat recharge mechanics, the only way to get your maneuvers backs is to rest out of combat for 1 minute.
I think the best way to handle ToB is one of two ways.
1: Disallow the classes and only allow the maneuvers and stances to be taken via the feats.
2: Allow the classes but remove the in combat recharge mechanics, the only way to get your maneuvers backs is to rest out of combat for 1 minute.
I disagree with your second point. The maneuvers should be usable 1/day with a mechanic to be able to recall maybe one or two. Or let them regain them the same way a wizard regains a few spells/day after some rest.
Tome of battle classes have far fewer abilities than casters. They are also less reality shattering. The whole idea behind a supernatural combat technique was that you could do something interesting without having to have caster levels.
Its a middle ground, the developer of the system suggested that the mechanic to recharge in combat should have been removed, I think that would be a suitable adjustment.
Another adjustment would be to change the warblades weapon flexibility class feature so that it only functions within a weapon group.
Finally, adjust the warblades effective fighter level for combat feats to -4.
Mission accomplished.
Add me to the Loves ToB/Not fond of 4E pile.
I haven't noticed them being game-breaking with not having to rest a full eight hours like a caster to get their maneuvers back, though I admit the Warblade being able to do so with just a full-round action is a bit cheesy. Revamp him back to on-par with the other two and remove the feat that lets the others recover their stuff as quickly as the Warblade (or leave it in if you don't mind players burning a feat to do it, just make Warblades have to take it too) and you're good to go.
I consider players going "We can't stop, I still have stuff so you need to keep going too!" a player problem, not a class/mechanics/balance problem. That's just jerkass behavior.
RE: Concentration: I subbed in the Autohypnosis skill from Dreamscarred's Psionics products. Wis-based rather than Con, but it's done the job, and we use Psionics regularly enough in my games that people are familiar with the skill.
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i have a Warblade in my new group.
(i was like "you wanna play a what?!?")
session two and he handed me a printed copy of the material. i have been looking over it. it has major cool factor.
so far the only mechanical change i have proposed to him is to allow the swift "recharge" only on a round in which he makes no other attacks (including opportunity attacks). so he may opt for a total defense, double move, switch weapons, use skills, just not attack. if he abides, he is recharged for next round.
i feel like impacting the action economy is a significant enough tradeoff to balance the power level of maneuvers as compared to feats.
Dot.
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The only issue I find with ToB is the lack of Concentration for Diamond Mind maneuvers, but either Sense Motive or Perception are okay, and still get the flavor of the discipline. Yes, those two are powerful skills, but since every Warblade has enough extra skill points to spare it's not like you won't be using them in Perception(or Sense Motive for a more social oriented Warblade, which perfoms quite good too) anyway.
About the maneuvers, if nerfing the recharge mechanics is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY (which most of time it is not), the Swordsage mechanics are good enough nerf. Further, even if ToB characters have theoretically infinite maneuvers per day those aren't nearly as powerful as most spells, and only in terms of combat effectiveness the three classes are roughly as powerful as a Paladin or a Magus (except a minmaxed Magus who'd win against any of the three classes pwntastically every time).
On a side and almost unrelated note, I also love ToB but hate mindlessly 4E.
http://sorcererstudios.com/forumdisplay.php?3-Libram-of-Battle
I'd love some new materials for Pathfinder using the Tome of Battle, because that was an interesting take on the genre.
I don't know why people are asking for maneuvers to be used a limited number of times per day. That's downright as idiotic as the 4e's once per encounter rule. Let me put it this way:
Would you play a fighting game that allows special and super moves to be once per round?
Would you play League of Legends if it would allow players to use their champions' spells once per life?
Would you play a RPG that allows you cast spells or use special attacks once per fight?
Yeah... me neither... same thing with D&D. The idea that you can't use the same move twice because of some force is bogus anyway.
You wanna make the maneuvers balance? Simple:
- If you're a martial adept, each maneuver takes a number of rounds to recharge based on their levels. I.E. 1st-level maneuvers take 1 round to recharge.
- If you're not a martial adept, then each maneuver takes double the noumber of rounds to recharge. I.E. 1st-level maneuvers take 2 rounds to recharge.
For the classes, well:
- Remove school exclusivities. The Crusader, Swordsage and Warblade should get access to all 9 schools, except that they would have a limited number based on their class.
- Remove the recharge ability, as stated above.
- Add that if the character uses the favored weapon, then he gets a bonus on the maneuvers. In short, eliminate the weapon restrictions.