Brew Potions question


Rules Questions


Recently in my game, the question came up "can a wizard brew a divine potion?". Specifically, I have a Dhampir PC that needs Inflict Wounds potions. Could the alchemist whip up a few? The Alchemist gets Cure Wounds spells on his list, but not Inflict. Also, the sorcerer (who is the Dhampir) was thinking of picking up Brew Potion just so he can make his own Inflict potions. Is any of this possible? I know that in general, you can use item creation feats to create magic items if you do not have the prerequisites by increasing the DC by 5, but does this apply to an arcane caster trying to duplicate a divine spell?


Jeff1964 wrote:
Recently in my game, the question came up "can a wizard brew a divine potion?". Specifically, I have a Dhampir PC that needs Inflict Wounds potions. Could the alchemist whip up a few? The Alchemist gets Cure Wounds spells on his list, but not Inflict. Also, the sorcerer (who is the Dhampir) was thinking of picking up Brew Potion just so he can make his own Inflict potions. Is any of this possible? I know that in general, you can use item creation feats to create magic items if you do not have the prerequisites by increasing the DC by 5, but does this apply to an arcane caster trying to duplicate a divine spell?

Technically, yes.

According to the rules, only "spell completion" and "spell trigger" items absolutely needs the spells. Potions are neither of these, so the +5 DC works.

But this is probably not what the designers intended...

If I were the GM, I would at probably require the PC to first buy the spell as a scroll, for "ingredient guidance" or some such.

Are the PCs such loners that no NPC divine caster will help for a few gp?


The dhampir could pick up brew potion and make them with a +5, but I expect that to be errata'd very soon, so you'd have to be ok with it being a houserule eventually.

Assuming he's undead bloodline, you could let him take Sanguine from the UM, which let's him heal 1d6 by drinking the blood of his fallen enemies. This is useable 3+CHA bonus times per day (so probably 7 or 8 times a day). That's a help.

If you want to do some houseruling, you could also allow him to trade out Chill Touch for Inflict Minor wounds. And then later Inflict Moderate for Vampiric Touch.


davidvs wrote:

Technically, yes.

According to the rules, only "spell completion" and "spell trigger" items absolutely needs the spells. Potions are neither of these, so the +5 DC works.

But this is probably not what the designers intended...

If I were the GM, I would at probably require the PC to first buy the spell as a scroll, for "ingredient guidance" or some such.

Are the PCs such loners that no NPC divine caster will help for a few gp?

Technically, no.

From the Brew Potion feat:

SRD wrote:
You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures.

(emphasis mine)

In the wording of the feat, you cannot brew a potion of a spell you do not know. Specifics (feat wording) trumps generality (item creation rules). Knowing the spell, in other words, is not a bypassable prerequisite but a core component. Compare this to the wording of other item creation feats. For example, Craft Staff:

SRD wrote:
You can create any staff whose prerequisites you meet.

To make a staff you must meet the prerequisites. You can take a +5 on the check in order to meet any prerequisite you don't otherwise. To make a potion, you must know the spell itself. This isn't a prereq put in place by the magic item (bypassable), but rather by the feat itself (not bypassable).

As for the alchemist, if he himself is a dhampir, then I would swap inflict in for cure on his spell list. Clearly cure is there so the alchemist can heal himself. It makes no sense for a dhampir alchemist to be able to make a cure extract since that would only damage him. This wasn't accounted for in the class, but I think RAI clearly shows the alchy should be able to self-heal. I would strongly suggest AGAINST allowing the sorcerer to do something similar, though. Healing should stay out of the hands of the "pure" arcane casters (sorc/wizard) beyond roundabout methods such as summon monster a SLA healer.

If the alchy isn't a dhampir, then I would let him learn the extract formula from a dhampir alchy at typical formula sharing costs, or possibly at a slight premium since the dhampir might be sharing "racial secrets." (this premium could be an extra cost, or having the party have to do a quest for the guy in exchange for it, or make it a favor that he is doing for the sorcerer dhampir that he can call in later).

EDIT: Fixed Quote tags, clarified staff argument


To head off an argument against my staff example at the pass (specifically that as worded, the argument is wrong since neither potion's spell known nor staff's spell known prerequisite is bypassable), let's look at a few others:

Craft Wand: "You can create a wand of any 4th level or lower spell that you know."
Craft Wondrous Item: "You can create a wide variety of magic wondrous items."
Craft Rod: "You can create magic rods."
Forge Ring: You can create magic rings."
Craft Magic Arms and Armor: "You can create magic weapons, armor, and shields."
Scribe Scroll: "You can create a scroll of any spell that you know."

For those magic items which have unbypassable prerequisites (wands, staffs, scrolls) they are specifically called out in the feat description. For those that have bypassable prerequisites (rods, rings, magic arms & armor, wondrous items), they are not specifically called out in the feat description.

This puts everything under the heading of general (item creation rules) getting trumped by specific (feat descriptions).

It is unfortunate that spell-trigger and -completion items got called out further in the magic items creation rules where potions did not, and that the caster level prereq for enhancement bonuses on magic weapons and armor being unbypassable got called out in the magic item creation rules, but not in the feat, but these exceptions do not disprove the larger statement. Unless there is a specific exception for potions not needing the spell known which I am unaware of, RAW says that you must be able to cast the spell.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Jeff1964 wrote:
Recently in my game, the question came up "can a wizard brew a divine potion?". Specifically, I have a Dhampir PC that needs Inflict Wounds potions. Could the alchemist whip up a few? The Alchemist gets Cure Wounds spells on his list, but not Inflict. Also, the sorcerer (who is the Dhampir) was thinking of picking up Brew Potion just so he can make his own Inflict potions. Is any of this possible? I know that in general, you can use item creation feats to create magic items if you do not have the prerequisites by increasing the DC by 5, but does this apply to an arcane caster trying to duplicate a divine spell?

I come down on the side of "yes, but at +5 DC." The argument about "specific trumps general" has issues because the Brew Potion feat contradicts the potion crafting rules in the item creation section - which is more specific?

I look at it this way - is it broken to allow it? I say it is not broken. It's only 1st-3rd level non-personal spells.

Summary: This is a contested issue with no clear answer. As GM, you should make the call for your game.

Dark Archive

Bascaria wrote:

To head off an argument against my staff example at the pass (specifically that as worded, the argument is wrong since neither potion's spell known nor staff's spell known prerequisite is bypassable), let's look at a few others:

Craft Wand: "You can create a wand of any 4th level or lower spell that you know."
Craft Wondrous Item: "You can create a wide variety of magic wondrous items."
Craft Rod: "You can create magic rods."
Forge Ring: You can create magic rings."
Craft Magic Arms and Armor: "You can create magic weapons, armor, and shields."
Scribe Scroll: "You can create a scroll of any spell that you know."

For those magic items which have unbypassable prerequisites (wands, staffs, scrolls) they are specifically called out in the feat description. For those that have bypassable prerequisites (rods, rings, magic arms & armor, wondrous items), they are not specifically called out in the feat description.

This puts everything under the heading of general (item creation rules) getting trumped by specific (feat descriptions).

It is unfortunate that spell-trigger and -completion items got called out further in the magic items creation rules where potions did not, and that the caster level prereq for enhancement bonuses on magic weapons and armor being unbypassable got called out in the magic item creation rules, but not in the feat, but these exceptions do not disprove the larger statement. Unless there is a specific exception for potions not needing the spell known which I am unaware of, RAW says that you must be able to cast the spell.

A. "You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures."

This is flavor text and has been called out as being that repeatedly so has no bearing on anything here.

B. There are only 2 requirements that can not be replaced with a +5 difficulty modifier and those are:
1). The item creation feat being used (ie. Brew Potion)
2). For the level requirement for creating +x weapons and armor.

Any other requirement can be replaced by increasing the difficulty. This has been quoted over and over by the Dev's so lets not start this conversation again. PLEASE.


ryric wrote:
The argument about "specific trumps general" has issues because the Brew Potion feat contradicts the potion crafting rules in the item creation section - which is more specific?

To clarify, I am splitting magic item creation into 2 separate thresholds: you need to meet the feat's prereqs before you address the item's prereqs.

For something like a wondrous item, you can make ANY wondrous item once you have the feat. You can then bypass specific item's prereqs by taking the +5.

For something like a wand, you must first meet the feat's prereq (knowing the spell) before you can make any item. Once you meet that, you can take the +5 to avoid any prereq you don't already fulfill. I'm not really sure of an example where that would apply, since I'm pretty sure the only prereqs necessary would be knowledge of the spells, but there you go.

Is this a bit complicated? Yeah, I suppose so, but all magic item creation is, and its the best way I can think of to reconcile the langauge discrepancy in the feat descriptions.

ryric wrote:
I look at it this way - is it broken to allow it? I say it is not broken. It's only 1st-3rd level non-personal spells.

You are letting an arcane caster get access to divine spells. Yeah, they are only 1st-3rd and he could buy the potions at twice the price, but it still seems pretty broken to me. He can then brew healing potions to hand to the fighter, or, more troubling to me, the various divine buff spells, or let the staff magus make oils of shillelagh.


First off, there's no such thing as a "divine potion." Potions, like wands and staves, are neither arcane nor divine. There is no difference (bar minimum caster level) between a potion of cure light wounds brewed by a bard and one brewed by a cleric.

Second, potions are neither spell trigger nor spell completion items. They are "use-activated" items.

PF SRD wrote:


Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). the DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.

So, in order to create a potion, you must "know" the spell you are putting into it. Fortunately, that is a common prereq which can be sidestepped by increasing the DC by 5, per the rules on meeting prereqs.

So, for instance, in order to create a potion of cure light wounds (CL 1), you need to meet the following prereqs:

Brew Potion
Cure Light Wounds known

You must also be able to hit a DC 6 Spellcraft or Craft (Alchemy) check (5 plus Caster Level).

You must, per the rules on meeting prereqs, meet the Brew Potion prereq. The spell knowledge prereq, however, may be met or ignored (which increases the DC by 5). So, if you can hit a DC 11 Spellcraft of Craft (Alchemy) check, you can brew CL 1 potions of Cure Light Wounds without the knowing the Cure Light Wounds spell.


A few clarifying statements regarding the situation: the dhampir is the sorcerer, and yes he did take the undead bloodline. The alchemist is human. The campaign setting I am using is not Golarion, and there are several 'watchdog' groups in the area making sure that the undead do not get too uppity. This means that the normal clerics do not make Inflict potions for fear of the aforementioned groups (which have governmental approval). This means that, at present, he can only get them from the 'black market', or make them himself (or get his friend to do it). On another note, there is a difference between divine potions and arcane potions. Specifically, all divine casters can make curative potions, but only the bard and alchemist (so far) can make arcane curatives. My original question should have been a little clearer: what would the total addition to the DC of brewing the potion for an alchemist, since inflict spells are not on his list, and are not considered arcane spells by anyone. Would he have to add 5 (for not having the spell) or 10 (for not having the spell and not having it on his spell list) or more because it is a divine spell and he is an arcane caster?


Jeff1964 wrote:
On another note, there is a difference between divine potions and arcane potions.

On another note, there is no such thing. ;) Potions, like wands and staves, are neither arcane nor divine. Just like Boots of Teleportation are neither arcane nor divine; they're just magic.

Scrolls, on the other hand, contain arcane or divine spells because they're spell completion items - but they are the exception.

Quote:
Specifically, all divine casters can make curative potions, but only the bard and alchemist (so far) can make arcane curatives.

This is irrelevant; don't worry about it.

Quote:
what would the total addition to the DC of brewing the potion for an alchemist, since inflict spells are not on his list, and are not considered arcane spells by anyone.

The bolded part is the only important part.

Quote:
Would he have to add 5 (for not having the spell)

This. The arcane / divine split is, in this case, immaterial.


Since, my dhampir character's background had him coming from Qadira, I used this regional trait and bypassed any problems. I chose "inflict light wounds".

Alchemical Prodigy

Greg


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


A. "You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures."
This is flavor text and has been called out as being that repeatedly so has no bearing on anything here.

B. There are only 2 requirements that can not be replaced with a +5 difficulty modifier and those are:
1). The item creation feat being used (ie. Brew Potion)
2). For the level requirement for creating +x weapons and armor.

Any other requirement can be replaced by increasing the difficulty. This has been quoted over and over by the Dev's so lets not start this conversation again. PLEASE.

A: It's not flavor text. The flavor text for Brew Potions is, in its entirety "You can create magic potions." What I quoted is from the Benefits section of the feat, which is to say the crunchy part, so it does have bearing here.

I would curious what Patryn's response here would be. I'll more than happily concede that the magic item creation rules let you bypass knowing the spell, so long as you qualify for the feat, but I don't see how you can qualify for the feat without knowing the spell.

B. Again, I would say that not knowing the feat disqualifies you from requirement 1 there. Since you don't qualify for the FEAT, you don't qualify for the item (rings, rods, magic arms & armor, and wondrous items don't have this requirement in the feat, so it can be bypassed in the item creation).

Compare to Power Attack. If I have 13 Str, I can grab power attack. If I take strength damage and my strength drops to 12, I can no longer use Power Attack. I still have the feat (just like I still have Brew Potion), but I no longer qualify for it, so I can't use it in this instance.

If the devs have said otherwise, quote them to me and I will concede the point, but don't just declare that they have.

Otherwise, I think it's agree to disagree time.

For the OP, I don't think allowing the alchemist to brew the inflict potions will be unbalancing in this instance, but I would caution against making it a blanket rule that he can brew any non-class spell as a potion just by taking a +5 bump to the DC, which is trivial for him (with a +1 int bonus, a 1st level alchemist can take 10 and get an 18, more than enough to brew any potion, on a craft(alchemy) check).

Dark Archive

Bascaria wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


A. "You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures."
This is flavor text and has been called out as being that repeatedly so has no bearing on anything here.

B. There are only 2 requirements that can not be replaced with a +5 difficulty modifier and those are:
1). The item creation feat being used (ie. Brew Potion)
2). For the level requirement for creating +x weapons and armor.

Any other requirement can be replaced by increasing the difficulty. This has been quoted over and over by the Dev's so lets not start this conversation again. PLEASE.

A: It's not flavor text. The flavor text for Brew Potions is, in its entirety "You can create magic potions." What I quoted is from the Benefits section of the feat, which is to say the crunchy part, so it does have bearing here.

I would curious what Patryn's response here would be. I'll more than happily concede that the magic item creation rules let you bypass knowing the spell, so long as you qualify for the feat, but I don't see how you can qualify for the feat without knowing the spell.

B. Again, I would say that not knowing the feat disqualifies you from requirement 1 there. Since you don't qualify for the FEAT, you don't qualify for the item (rings, rods, magic arms & armor, and wondrous items don't have this requirement in the feat, so it can be bypassed in the item creation).

Compare to Power Attack. If I have 13 Str, I can grab power attack. If I take strength damage and my strength drops to 12, I can no longer use Power Attack. I still have the feat (just like I still have Brew Potion), but I no longer qualify for it, so I can't use it in this instance.

If the devs have said otherwise, quote them to me and I will concede the point, but don't just declare that they have.

Otherwise, I think it's agree to disagree time.

For the OP, I don't think allowing the alchemist to brew the inflict potions will be unbalancing in this instance, but I...

The only requirement for that feat is Caster level 3 never says you have to know ANY spells, just that you be caster level 3.

Everything else is immaterial per your argument then.


Perhaps inapplicable would be a better description than qualify. The feat is inapplicable. The only listed prereq on the table for Brew Potion is CL 3, true. But in the crunch text it says you can only make potions from spells you know.

The only prereqs for Power Attack are Str 13 and BAB +1, but the crunch text says you have to also be making an attack roll to use it.

You can't use Power Attack unless you are making an attack roll; you can't use Brew Potion unless you are brewing a potion of a 3rd level spell or lower that you know. The final part of that sentence -- "that you know" -- is no less important than any other part. You can't use Brew Potion to make an attack action, and you can't use Brew Potion to make a Rod, so you can't use Brew Potion to make a spell you don't know. The feat is inapplicable.

(For the record, I think that the rule here is, at best, ambiguous... oh my! Item creation rules are unclear!... and I completely understand your argument. I just don't think it is as clear cut as you are trying to make it out to be, and to me giving alchemists access to every potion at 1/2 price is too much at low levels.

If you can show me a dev saying otherwise I will gladly concede the point. Until then, we'll resolve nothing.)


Bascaria wrote:
But in the crunch text it says you can only make potions from spells you know.

Which is just a restatement of the item creation rules.

Quote:
The only prereqs for Power Attack are Str 13 and BAB +1, but the crunch text says you have to also be making an attack roll to use it.

Actually, you don't. You must declare Power Attack on your turn before you make any attack rolls, but you need not actually make any attack rolls on your turn.

For instance, a character could declare that they were using Power Attack, double move, and then apply the appropriate modifiers on their subsequent AoO made on an enemy's turn.


Patryn of Elvenshae wrote:

First off, there's no such thing as a "divine potion." Potions, like wands and staves, are neither arcane nor divine. There is no difference (bar minimum caster level) between a potion of cure light wounds brewed by a bard and one brewed by a cleric.

Second, potions are neither spell trigger nor spell completion items. They are "use-activated" items.

PF SRD wrote:


Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). the DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.

So, in order to create a potion, you must "know" the spell you are putting into it. Fortunately, that is a common prereq which can be sidestepped by increasing the DC by 5, per the rules on meeting prereqs.

So, for instance, in order to create a potion of cure light wounds (CL 1), you need to meet the following prereqs:

Brew Potion
Cure Light Wounds known

You must also be able to hit a DC 6 Spellcraft or Craft (Alchemy) check (5 plus Caster Level).

You must, per the rules on meeting prereqs, meet the Brew Potion prereq. The spell knowledge prereq, however, may be met or ignored (which increases the DC by 5). So, if you can hit a DC 11 Spellcraft of Craft (Alchemy) check, you can brew CL 1 potions of Cure Light Wounds without the knowing the Cure Light Wounds spell.

Except where it says on page 549 of the core rule book last sentence of the second paragraph:

Quote:
In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisite.

Which of course means as stated by others you can not do it. Because the magic item creation rules trump a feats description. And I belielive the book trumps the SRD unless some where I missed that the SRD was an errata site and not a free sharing site.

Liberty's Edge

TheJesterXIII wrote:

Which of course means as stated by others you can not do it. Because the magic item creation rules trump a feats description. And I belielive the book trumps the SRD unless some where I missed that the SRD was an errata site and not a free sharing site.

Actually, it sort of is, since it's the most up-to-date and errataed version of the rules. Luckily for your argument, which I agree with, the same sentence is found in the SRD under the Magic Item Creation Rules.

Grand Lodge

Deadmanwalking wrote:
TheJesterXIII wrote:

Which of course means as stated by others you can not do it. Because the magic item creation rules trump a feats description. And I belielive the book trumps the SRD unless some where I missed that the SRD was an errata site and not a free sharing site.

Actually, it sort of is, since it's the most up-to-date and errataed version of the rules. Luckily for your argument, which I agree with, the same sentence is found in the SRD under the Magic Item Creation Rules.

I believe the requirements for potions were updated first in FAQ, then in the 5th printing and errata, since this thread began. And a very good thing too.


What about a Witch with the cauldron hex? Despite being arcane they also get Curatives, in addition to inflict.


Here is my take on the whole thing. You need to know the spell or have access to it. So in my Opinion as a GM if a character wanted to brew a potion of whatever. Then he would roll for the brew difficulty and then he would roll a Spell craft check for using a Scroll of that spell. It allows some give on characters who want go outside those boundries and having them pay to do since they need to be able to get a hold of the scrolls to do that.

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