Backpacks


Rules Questions


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silky question here but where is the backpack ( and amount it carries) explained In the rules.

for a while our game has had a rule that it's a full round action to get an item from a backpack. one of the players I'n a side game pointed out he cannot find the rule anywhere.

so I looked it up found the reference to retrieving a stowed item being a move action.

the adventuring gear section lists backpack but when you go to the description of items all the descriptions start with the c items.

at this point it's just a curiosity since I figured this item would be defined more somewhere and one person I'n my main group insists he read it somewhere.

Dark Archive

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that is a good one, the only thing that I can find for Pathfinder is in the APG under Masterwork Backpack where it says the following:

Quote:
...Like a common backpack, it can hold about 2 cubic feet of material in its main container...

But I too can find nothing else.

Dark Archive

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all you need to know backpack :)


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Mojorat wrote:
silky question here but where is the backpack ( and amount it carries) explained In the rules.

Masterwork Backpack explains that a backpack can hold about 2 cubic feet of material in its main container. (The Masterwork Backpack also treats your strength as +1 higher when determining carrying capacity)

You are correct that normally, retrieving a stored item is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity. (Handy Haversack doesn't provoke, but is still a move action)

The full-round rule is probably from the Bag of Holding which states that if the Bag of Holding contains more than a normal backpack can hold, then it's a full-round action to retrieve the item.

Dark Archive

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chopswil wrote:
all you need to know backpack :)

Thank you, I just added a new phrase to my gaming language.

Invisible Leather Tardis.


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it appears for the game I am playing the rule will be , a move action to remove the backpack and a move to retrieve. not sure if this is better than the full round action rule. but I kind of agree retrieving stuff off your back as quickly as pulling it out of a belt pouch seems silly.


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According to the table here it is a move action to "Retrieve a stored item"


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The rules text entry.

Manipulate an Item
Moving or manipulating an item is usually a move action.

This includes retrieving or putting away a stored item, picking up an item, moving a heavy object, and opening a door. Examples of this kind of action, along with whether they incur an attack of opportunity, are given in Table: Actions in Combat.

So it is not unreasonable at all for the GM to call for more that just a move action for things that are well put away. A fine piece of precedence for this is in the slight of hand skill, "Drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity.", so IMHO anything a foe can't see, should at the minimum, be a standard action to get out.

The Exchange

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We have a house rule that all packs have quick-release straps. One free-action tug and it drops from your back, along with all the weight and encumbrance penalties associated.

Of course, you need to carry stuff you may want to access in a fight, somewhere other than in your 'pack.'

We have just found it somewhat tedious micro-managing the pack to keep your encumbrance penalties minimized.


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Frankthedm wrote:
So it is not unreasonable at all for the GM to call for more that just a move action for things that are well put away.

It's already in the rules. Stowed item is move action, provokes. Stowed item in a stuffed bag of holding is full round action, provokes. Stowed item in handy haversack is move action, no provoke. Yes, a DM can rule otherwise, see The Most Important Rule, but personally adding more micromanagement by tracking exactly where each item is going is tedious. I'd rather my players worry about how to defeat the evil dragon than which pocket their mirror was in when they dropped their backpack on a sharp rock.

Frankthedm wrote:
IMHO anything a foe can't see, should at the minimum, be a standard action to get out.

Even a potion? Move to draw, standard to drink is very common.


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I guess my question is. does the game differentiate from abet pouch ( which is more or less a large pocket) and a backpack which is strapped to your back securely and likely has 20 30 items along with large things like bedrolls.

the raw seems to be No ( so all a move to retrieve)

though I am leaning towards the slight of hand suggestion of acstandard action ( which is Also somewhat supported by oracle haunted mystery of a Standard action if stuff is hard to find.


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Perhaps the most unrealisttic aspect of most, if not all, RPGames is the backpack. Yes, I am including casting reality altering spells in that.

Back when I first started playing, my GM was a stickler for managing inventories. I had to describe where everything my character owned was stored. That meant the GM assumed things were stored in the order they were written on my character sheet. To pull any item out of a backpack was not something you could even entertain in combat, to do so was tantamount to simply surrenduring.

And of course that's pretty realistic. I do a lot of hiking and camping, and I am also a fly fisherman who typically fishes with a backpack, and I can tell you that pulling an item from a backpack is no six second activity. For fly fishing I have everything I think I need tied, clipped, pinned or velcroed to my gear where I can get to it quickly. If I need something from my backpack, that means I am not fishing for at least a minute or two. While hiking it can be a five minute ordeal to find the pain killer or insect repellant which I KNEW was in the left pocket, but I eventually find buried at the bottom of the main compartment wedged between the ziplock bag of raisins and peanuts and the wadded up rain gear that hasn't been used in two months.

To contemplate getting something specific out of a backpack in three seconds while in the middle of combat is no more realistic than dropping a flaming ball on somesone's head by mouthing some arcane phrase and twiddling your fingers.

But treating equipment realistically would take a lot of fun out of the game.


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brassbaboon wrote:

Perhaps the most unrealisttic aspect of most, if not all, RPGames is the backpack. Yes, I am including casting reality altering spells in that.

Back when I first started playing, my GM was a stickler for managing inventories. I had to describe where everything my character owned was stored. That meant the GM assumed things were stored in the order they were written on my character sheet. To pull any item out of a backpack was not something you could even entertain in combat, to do so was tantamount to simply surrenduring.

And of course that's pretty realistic. I do a lot of hiking and camping, and I am also a fly fisherman who typically fishes with a backpack, and I can tell you that pulling an item from a backpack is no six second activity. For fly fishing I have everything I think I need tied, clipped, pinned or velcroed to my gear where I can get to it quickly. If I need something from my backpack, that means I am not fishing for at least a minute or two. While hiking it can be a five minute ordeal to find the pain killer or insect repellant which I KNEW was in the left pocket, but I eventually find buried at the bottom of the main compartment wedged between the ziplock bag of raisins and peanuts and the wadded up rain gear that hasn't been used in two months.

To contemplate getting something specific out of a backpack in three seconds while in the middle of combat is no more realistic than dropping a flaming ball on somesone's head by mouthing some arcane phrase and twiddling your fingers.

But treating equipment realistically would take a lot of fun out of the game.

+1

It sometimes bothers me how unrealistic it is to grab anything out of a pack so easily. Then I imagine myself having to actually keep track of how everything is packed and I remember the hassle it would add to the game is not worth the added realism.


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For those who have to keep intricate details about where everything is...Does your GM have an assigned amount of "storage" for a backpack? for instance does a basic backpack have 1 main pouch & 5 smaller side pouches fitted along the sides? or does he expect you to create your own backpack design? In my opinion this would make a huge factor in determining total storage capacity & where things are stored for combat purposes.


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All of our packs must feature quick-release straps as a house rule. With a single free-action tug, it'll be off your back, along with all the weight and encumbrance penalties that come with it.

Of course, you'll need to keep items that you might require in a fight somewhere other than your 'pack.'

We've just noticed that micro-managing the pack to maintain your encumbrance penalties to a minimum is a bit tedious.

Scarab Sages

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philips wrote:

All of our packs must feature quick-release straps as a house rule. With a single free-action tug, it'll be off your back, along with all the weight and encumbrance penalties that come with it.

Of course, you'll need to keep items that you might require in a fight somewhere other than your 'pack.'

We've just noticed that micro-managing the pack to maintain your encumbrance penalties to a minimum is a bit tedious.

Well necromancy aside given the normal packs likely don't have belt or cross sectional straps I imagine its just shoulder straps that's fairly easy to shrug off in my experience.


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within RAW there is an expected progression toward magical stowage.
The Handy Haversack has long been a favorite since its debut mainly for simplifying getting an item out and not provoking an AoO.
Raw focuses on game mechanics and some common circumstances and does not explain how things work in a realistic or sensible manner, it's flavor text.
I've always used a libreoffice/word document with a long table (sorting!) noting the location for my PC's inventory. It makes it very easy. page 1 accessible stuff, pg 2 wands, potions, scrolls, pg 3-5 other stuff, pg 6 expended stuff.


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Senko wrote:
philips wrote:

All of our packs must feature quick-release straps as a house rule. With a single free-action tug, it'll be off your back, along with all the weight and encumbrance penalties that come with it.

Of course, you'll need to keep items that you might require in a fight somewhere other than your 'pack.'

We've just noticed that micro-managing the pack to maintain your encumbrance penalties to a minimum is a bit tedious.

Well necromancy aside given the normal packs likely don't have belt or cross sectional straps I imagine its just shoulder straps that's fairly easy to shrug off in my experience.

Most backpacks (granted modern ones) do have a strap that comes across the chest and/or abdomen to better secure the weight, especially if it's the equivalent of a "masterwork" backpack that would enable better weight distribution and accommodation. While the easy clip buckles are a fairly modern invention (plastic is what enabled them to be firm enough to not come undone normally but flexible enough to be intentionally broken), there could easily be something similar for a medieval backpack like the clipless loop buckles that use friction to hold the actual belt part tied.


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Why is anyone carrying things they might need in an emergency inside of their backpacks? Weapons and shield, outside the pack; flasks in a bandolier; spell components, holy symbol, other small/light objects in a belt pouch; wands and scrolls either in belt loops/sheaths or spring-loaded wrist device.

Are there ambushes, combats or other situations that call for your PC's sudden retrieval of rations, a climbing kit or their bedroll? Does that come up a lot? The closest my players ever get to these rules is the Wizard PC that has a ton of scrolls and for ease of play I just handwave it being a Move action to retrieve a stowed item, not worrying about what its contained in, since said PC is usually about 30' away from any foe.

Honestly sometimes I feel like I'm playing a completely different game from everyone else here.


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wandering commentary
amusingly pulling a flask from a bandolier 0.5gp provokes and isn't any faster than a backpack 2gp in RAW (is it snapped? open?...it does avoid the "is it buried" question). RAW is rough and it takes a Home GM to fix that IF desired. Again, Handy Haversack or Spring-loaded Wrist Sheaths within RAW. So most of this involves low level game play (Fifth or less level). Don't buy the Adv. Sash, MW backpack. The Weaponrack Backpack mayyybe. Weapon cords got nerfed and are now more bother than they are worth. A heavy war horse with gear and saddlebags will improve your low level PC more than anything.

I've made multiple suggestions and several threads over the years to improve PC survival.


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R. Doyle wrote:

We have a house rule that all packs have quick-release straps. One free-action tug and it drops from your back, along with all the weight and encumbrance penalties associated.

Of course, you need to carry stuff you may want to access in a fight, somewhere other than in your 'pack.'

We have just found it somewhat tedious micro-managing the pack to keep your encumbrance penalties minimized.

We have this exact same house rule, and for the exact same reason.


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Azothath wrote:

wandering commentary

amusingly pulling a flask from a bandolier 0.5gp provokes and isn't any faster than a backpack 2gp in RAW (is it snapped? open?...it does avoid the "is it buried" question). RAW is rough and it takes a Home GM to fix that IF desired. Again, Handy Haversack or Spring-loaded Wrist Sheaths within RAW. So most of this involves low level game play (Fifth or less level). Don't buy the Adv. Sash, MW backpack. The Weaponrack Backpack mayyybe. Weapon cords got nerfed and are now more bother than they are worth. A heavy war horse with gear and saddlebags will improve your low level PC more than anything.

I've made multiple suggestions and several threads over the years to improve PC survival.

When it comes to weapons... I respectfully disagree. If you're a martial character dependent on manufactured weapons to deliver damage as a means of ending encounters, the majority of the time you have a primary weapon and a weapon of the opposite attack type. Either you've got a primary melee with a secondary ranged weapon or a primary ranged with a secondary melee.

You might also have a Light backup weapon like a dagger, armor spikes and so on. I have known very few players willing to strategize around the "golf bag" of weapons and the two I can think of right off the top of my head both had Quick Draw.

Your concern about the bandolier, or even the provocation of pulling from a backpack: I specifically mentioned flasks, as in alchemical splash weapon flasks, in my post above. These are meant for throwing. If your PC is at a point where throwing a flask in combat is their best option for an attack AND their foe is standing close enough to threaten... AND that PC has no room for a 5' step? You're in bad enough shape that provoking probably isn't your biggest worry.

But you're right though; pulling from a backpack is the same as pulling from a bandolier. There are several move equivalent options that provoke if a foe is close enough. If I'm dealing with novice players I'll say "do you want to pull that flask here? You'll provoke" and if I'm dealing with veteran players, they rarely get cornered to a point where their actions are provoking, even at low levels.

For pulling something from a backpack to be an issue, that item has to be reasonably buried in the main compartment of the backpack, the PC has to be under duress, and the PC may be close enough to a foe or foes to provoke by their activity. Does this come up a lot in games? Like, from levels 1-5, even with novice players, is it often that a PC is like "hang on... I had it in here somewhere... oh right, here's the McGuffin I'm going to destroy you all with" as they root around in their pack?


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Note most sane people don't let you root around in a backpack that is on your back (unless its a fancy magical haversack that you can simply think of the item you want, reach near the lid over your shoulder, and it's there). You had that McGuffin in your pack, cool, now you need to doff your backpack usually as a free action but is a move action if you want to avoid provoking later so that you are carrying the backpack in front of you instead of off the floor, open your backpack as a move as per open/close container, reach for the item from the backpack (off the floor that provokes or not as determined before), probably you'll want to rewear your backpack as another optional move, and now you have the item to use after 1-2 turns of rooting around (assuming the GM is generous and doesn't make you go hunting within the pack).


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Scroll case, when held, retrieve a scroll as a Move action, holds 10 scrolls. Bandolier can hold 8 items, retrieve stored item. Spring loaded wrist sheaths are only 5 GP each. While folks said ignore the adventurer's sash, that's only 20 GP for 6 belt pouches and a Move action to open them and just leave them unfastened prior to a fight. A scroll can hang at the hip, or a scroll case with 4 scrolls.

Need even more utility? People chastise me from time to time for being so obsessed with Valet familiars, but this Archetype gives you something that can cast open/close and Prestidigitation at will - they can open a scroll case or float a scroll into your waiting hand. Depending on the familiar, they may even be able to cast Open/Close AND retrieve the scroll for you in the same round.

So, again, with all of these options... how often is a cluttered backpack ACTUALLY a problem?


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Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Scroll case, when held, retrieve a scroll as a Move action, holds 10 scrolls. Bandolier can hold 8 items, retrieve stored item. Spring loaded wrist sheaths are only 5 GP each. While folks said ignore the adventurer's sash, that's only 20 GP for 6 belt pouches and a Move action to open them and just leave them unfastened prior to a fight. A scroll can hang at the hip, or a scroll case with 4 scrolls.

Need even more utility? People chastise me from time to time for being so obsessed with Valet familiars, but this Archetype gives you something that can cast open/close and Prestidigitation at will - they can open a scroll case or float a scroll into your waiting hand. Depending on the familiar, they may even be able to cast Open/Close AND retrieve the scroll for you in the same round.

So, again, with all of these options... how often is a cluttered backpack ACTUALLY a problem?

spring loaded scroll case is even faster to get ready to use (swift action) and a scroll can have any number of spells scribed into it, it just makes it longer (up to gm approval of 'any number')


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There's plenty of other things that wouldn't fit so succinctly into a case, bandolier, or even on a belt. Thieves' tools, folding bridges/ladders, rope, even a bag of holding/portable hole might all be needed in a pinch in the middle of a combat in the right circumstance, there's plenty that all those gimmick items don't cover and they are all made mostly redundant by a properly prepped haversack. Plenty of reason for people to "overlook" them even if they start at a high level game, or a low level game.

Scarab Sages

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AwesomenessDog wrote:
Senko wrote:
philips wrote:

All of our packs must feature quick-release straps as a house rule. With a single free-action tug, it'll be off your back, along with all the weight and encumbrance penalties that come with it.

Of course, you'll need to keep items that you might require in a fight somewhere other than your 'pack.'

We've just noticed that micro-managing the pack to maintain your encumbrance penalties to a minimum is a bit tedious.

Well necromancy aside given the normal packs likely don't have belt or cross sectional straps I imagine its just shoulder straps that's fairly easy to shrug off in my experience.
Most backpacks (granted modern ones) do have a strap that comes across the chest and/or abdomen to better secure the weight, especially if it's the equivalent of a "masterwork" backpack that would enable better weight distribution and accommodation. While the easy clip buckles are a fairly modern invention (plastic is what enabled them to be firm enough to not come undone normally but flexible enough to be intentionally broken), there could easily be something similar for a medieval backpack like the clipless loop buckles that use friction to hold the actual belt part tied.

Modern being the important part I think the earliest sternum strap only dates to the 1960's so I've never seen Pathfinder or DnD ones as possessing that feature.


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AwesomenessDog wrote:
There's plenty of other things that wouldn't fit so succinctly into a case, bandolier, or even on a belt. Thieves' tools, folding bridges/ladders, rope, even a bag of holding/portable hole might all be needed in a pinch in the middle of a combat in the right circumstance, there's plenty that all those gimmick items don't cover and they are all made mostly redundant by a properly prepped haversack. Plenty of reason for people to "overlook" them even if they start at a high level game, or a low level game.

I have GOT to be running the game wrong. I'm not joking; I need to take a class or something. My players never run away, except for my daughter and her friends who are all newbs to TTRPGs. My players also never throw a portable hole down as an attack; they use weapons and spells, deal overwhelming damage, they strategize entry and exit points, etc.

Now granted, I haven't played a lot of high level games, but for game levels 1-6 I've done plenty. I haven't had any situations when the party has to quickly unlock a door, or throw a folding bridge, or even use a rope in combat.


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this has wandered quite a bit


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There's the mite cave in book 1 of kingmaker where you'll want to throw a bridge down if you dont want to get knocked into a pit with a giant centipede while climbing and being shot at by darts. Then there's just any room with a trap in it and monsters; Mummy's Mask's first dungeon has a "fake trap" that floods the room while an animated sarcophagus tries to eat everyone. I'm personally not sure how you would use a BoH/PH as a weapon either, but you might get ambushed by something you can't harm without a special doohicky you have stored away in an extradimensional container (this is more likely the weaker Str and carry capacity the entire party is, and I have had to run games where every melee went dex build); and even just having a just a slaying arrow you keep tucked away in the bag because you don't want anyone to be able to nick your 2kgp bolt in town, but you didn't expect to need to use it early when the young dragon threatening the town ambushes you instead.

Most of these uses are so niche or minor even to the point that having to spend 2+ turns setting it up means you won't need it by the time combat is done, but again, a haversack makes it just take a move action.


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I've derailed this thread enough. In a separate thread I'd love to know how mites knock a party of PCs into a pit, mechanically, but this is a thread about backpacks and the speed at which items can be retrieved from them. I think we've all given several examples of devices that can be purchased at low levels to deliver enough gear that most emergencies can be resolved with a Move action to pull a weapon or item, Standard to use it.


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So the thread is done then, and I can tell you that the answer is they attack you with ranged, forcing you to come to them potentially via a trapped series of ropes across a mini cavern so that you grab a false hold and pull it free causing yourself to fall into said cavern, the bottom of which contains a giant whiptail centipede. All of that is negated with a simple wooden plank 10-15ft long.


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One of the slightly weird things about the pathfinder list of containers is that it doesn’t include a non-magical haversack/satchel/shoulder slung bag. From LRP experience (which is the closest I have got to adventuring), having your antivenoms, lights, potions, scrolls, ritual focii etc in one bag at your waist is much easier to manage than a belt pouch or backpack.


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AwesomenessDog wrote:
So the thread is done then, and I can tell you that the answer is they attack you with ranged, forcing you to come to them potentially via a trapped series of ropes across a mini cavern so that you grab a false hold and pull it free causing yourself to fall into said cavern, the bottom of which contains a giant whiptail centipede. All of that is negated with a simple wooden plank 10-15ft long.

Wait, are you saying that a group of 4 PCs have a 10'-15' plank of wood in a backpack? You certainly can't be talking about a portable bridge which is 200 GP and requires a good deal of assembly.

If the PCs aren't under duress from a previous encounter and the players aren't complete noobs to the game, the trapped ropes have a DC to be detected as a trap, modified by distance. I don't know a group of experienced players even at L1 that don't prioritize and use Perception all the time.

From there you've got the party on one side of a 10'-15' wide gap with mites making ranged attacks from the other. Unless the mites are just about to destroy the McGuffin or slay an NPC, there's nothing that says you should rush to melee with them. Again, depending on the experience level of your players the martial types should have at least secondary ranged attacks.

You've got other options to cross the gap besides a wood plank or the trapped ropes. Acrobatics +5 gives you a decent chance; spells or racial abilities that give you a Climb or Fly speed, increase your Acrobatics or your base speed. There's Expeditious Construction, Alter Self if you're high enough level, or even just Enlarge Person on a melee martial with a Reach weapon.

Last but not least, there's mist/smoke effects. If the PCs DO have a 15' plank of wood in a backpack they've gotta grab, but they're pinned down by darts being thrown by mites, throwing a Smokestick or casting Obscuring Mist will give them all the time they need to wrench the plank free while minimizing their exposure to damage.


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Neriathale wrote:
One of the slightly weird things about the pathfinder list of containers is that it doesn’t include a non-magical haversack/satchel/shoulder slung bag. From LRP experience (which is the closest I have got to adventuring), having your antivenoms, lights, potions, scrolls, ritual focii etc in one bag at your waist is much easier to manage than a belt pouch or backpack.

That would just be called a sack, which the game does have. A haversack is its own thing in real life, but it isn't really something anyone would want to wear in combat until we get to a firearms anywhere standpoint, but a backpack is still a backpack.

@Mark, If it folds, yes, even if you can only get it to 5ft, it would go around only a foot over your head without significantly restricting your legs' range of motion. Most melee martials aren't going to have +5 or higher acrobatics at level 1-3 when they're carrying armor and possibly a shield; granted your dex-builds might but dex-builds sucked when the core book with the folding ladder and the kingmaker AP came out. (You will probably see the mites before you get a chance to see the ropes, and you need to be intentionally searching for traps unless you have the trap spotting feat.) And there are plenty of other strategies or things to help the bridge strategy, but all of them could be buried at the bottom of a backpack.

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