Creation of magic items: substituting the spell known

[Theomniadept]

So I'm playing my second pathfinder game, first that has plans of being long running. I'm a summoner and I looked at the Craft Staff feat. It would be amazing for my companions to have staves with more spells, as well as myself, but I don't have the spells known to make ANY staves. At all. And I mean summoner spells, not that I don't know them, but that summoner cannot learn them.

Normally this wouldn't be a problem. Summoner can't cast Arcane Lock, so he can't make the Staff of Obstacles. Summoner can't cast Greater Magic Weapon (but CAN cast Greater Magic Fang - go figure) so he can't make the Staff of Bolstering. If these were use-activated or something I could make them by just upping the Spellcraft DC by 5 and still have a reasonable abiliy to make it. But the rules explicitly state that I must be able to cast the spell to make spell trigger or spell completion items.

Now here's my question: since I can substitute not having the spell by having someone else help me make the item by casting it, could I substitute not having the spell. And I quote, "These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)."

Now, this does mean I can make technically ANY magic item as long as I have someone or something there to cast the spell.

"A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal."

"The caster level of all spells in a staff must be the same, and no staff can have a caster level of less than 8th, even if all the spells in the staff are low-level spells."

"The creator must have prepared the spells to be stored (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focus the spells require as well as material component costs sufficient to activate the spell 50 times (divide this amount by the number of charges one use of the spell expends). Material components are consumed when he begins working, but focuses are not. (A focus used in creating a staff can be reused.) The act of working on the staff triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the staff 's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)"

Does this mean that, technically, I COULD make the Staff of Obstacles? According to my logic, I would need 26 days, each day using my own spell slots AND using 26 scrolls of 8th caster level Arcane Lock. Thus adding a cost of 25 x Spell level 1 x Caster Level 8 x 26, or rather 5,200 gp. So the 25,800 gp staff would cost me 12,900 + 5,200 gp, for a total cost of 18,100 gp, 70% of the market price as opposed to the normal 50%.

Is this a viable method to make items like these using this method of substituting higher-leveled scrolls in place of knowing the spell? It simply states that I must be able to use the spell via an item, but the entry under creating staves says I must have the material components to activate each spell 50 times - do I need to thus have 50 scrolls or is it sufficient to have 1 per day of crafting?

And yes, this is my first post, nice to meet everyone, and as you can tell I do tend to make large posts just to make sure I've encompassed all I can.

[Name Violation]

you can just add 5 to the DC to create and make it without knowing the spell needed

[Theomniadept]

Name Violation wrote:

you can just add 5 to the DC to create and make it without knowing the spell needed

No, not in the case of spell trigger and spell completion activated items. It explicitly states you need the spell.

[leo1925]

Yes you can have someone else (or a scroll or wand etc) to be casting the spell for you.
Now why do you want to create an exact copy of one of the staves that are in the books? just create a staff with spells you know, the formula to calculate the price is right there.

[Theomniadept]

leo1925 wrote:

Yes you can have someone else (or a scroll or wand etc) to be casting the spell for you.

Now why do you want to create an exact copy of one of the staves that are in the books? just create a staff with spells you know, the formula to calculate the price is right there.

Actually you bring up another question. First off I usually don't like making my own magic items because it seems a bit metagamy and a friend of mine was a fail artificer in 3.5 His 2/day Rod of Disintigration was real helpful when he shot it twice and in total maybe got 1/10th the cost in usage.

Anyway, my next question is this: can you create an item at a lower caster level than your own if it means you couldn't cast the spell but another class could?

Here' the same Staff of Obstacles: Highest level spell is Wall of Stone. A 5th level Wizard spell and a 4th level Summoner spell, but Wizard can cast it at CL 7 while Summoner needs to be 10th level. Doesn't this, by the rules, mean that the summoner incurs a higher cost because he would NEED to make that staff at CL 10 as opposed to 8? Can he actually make staves at CL 8 because of the feat Craft Staff, bypassing his own limitations?

[leo1925]

Theomniadept wrote:

leo1925 wrote:

Yes you can have someone else (or a scroll or wand etc) to be casting the spell for you.

Now why do you want to create an exact copy of one of the staves that are in the books? just create a staff with spells you know, the formula to calculate the price is right there.

Actually you bring up another question. First off I usually don't like making my own magic items because it seems a bit metagamy and a friend of mine was a fail artificer in 3.5 His 2/day Rod of Disintigration was real helpful when he shot it twice and in total maybe got 1/10th the cost in usage.

Anyway, my next question is this: can you create an item at a lower caster level than your own if it means you couldn't cast the spell but another class could?

Here' the same Staff of Obstacles: Highest level spell is Wall of Stone. A 5th level Wizard spell and a 4th level Summoner spell, but Wizard can cast it at CL 7 while Summoner needs to be 10th level. Doesn't this, by the rules, mean that the summoner incurs a higher cost because he would NEED to make that staff at CL 10 as opposed to 8? Can he actually make staves at CL 8 because of the feat Craft Staff, bypassing his own limitations?

Creating a staff with the spells you want isn't metagaming and it isn't a custom staff, just because there aren't any scrolls printed that doesn't mean that all scrolls are custom magic items.

As to your question, no i don't think that you can set the DC lower than it is required in order to cast the spell by the crafter.

[LazarX]

Summoners in general aren't really cut out for magic item crafting, and have a lot less need for it when it comes to casting thier own spells. If item crafting really has an itch for you, you're better off with wondrous items.

Keep in mind also that staves with spells not on your class list require Use Magic Device rolls for each usage.

[Theomniadept]

LazarX wrote:

Summoners in general aren't really cut out for magic item crafting, and have a lot less need for it when it comes to casting thier own spells. If item crafting really has an itch for you, you're better off with wondrous items.

Keep in mind also that staves with spells not on your class list require Use Magic Device rolls for each usage.

Hehehe. Already took Craft Wondrous Item. Summoners get lotsa feats if you count the eidolon but for the summoner himself there's not much. Expanded Arcana a couple times, Greater Spell Focus in Conjuration Augment Summoning...Skill Focus in UMD and Spellcraft...and then Improved Initiative? Craft Staff just seemed to be a cool way to get some good magic items. After all, they are rechargeable given a reasonable amount of downtime.

Also liked staves. I think I will take the feat since the staff -must- have some kind of theme. I suppose I'll put the horrid memories of Locke the bragging failficer behind me and think of maybe one or two concepts to make a staff out of. I suppose upping the CL won't be too bad, I'll even remove that Grease spell and make the 'Staff of Walls'.

[mdt]

LazarX wrote:

Summoners in general aren't really cut out for magic item crafting, and have a lot less need for it when it comes to casting thier own spells. If item crafting really has an itch for you, you're better off with wondrous items.

Keep in mind also that staves with spells not on your class list require Use Magic Device rolls for each usage.

Clarification. They require a UMD roll for the spells in the staff that are not on your class list. If the staff has 3 spells in it, and 2 of them are on your class list, and one is not, then you only need the UMD roll for the one spell not on your class list.

By the same token, if the staff has a 2nd level spell on your list, a 3rd level spell not on your list, and a 4th level spell on your list, then you can recharge the staff by expending 4th level spell slots into it (since the highest level spell in the staff is on your list).

It's a bit problematic when people get spells at different levels, and requires GM interpretation. For example, if there's a 4th level wizard spell that's a 3rd level spell for your summoner, and a 4th level wizard spell that's not on your spell list, there's ambiguity as to whether you can recharge it. Due to the fact you are incapable of spending a 4th level slot to recharge, but can cast one of the highest level spells in it. Personally, I let you recharge the staff in my games, but that's me.