So, I have a player I've introduced to pathfinder, who is somewhat inexperienced with tabletop RPGs, but not totally so. He understands the basic mechanics of the game, and has decided that he'd like to play a Barbarian. I explained the basic idea of the rage mechanic, and am convinced that he understands that as well.
However, he (being wise, I think) wasn't certain he understood enough to be able to pick good rage power. He asked me to put together a suggested progression of them. He said it was okay if it wasn't absolutely optimized, as long as it was viable, and fun to play.
So! I'd love to hear input on the following suggested progression I came up with, whether it's on the additional description I added, or on alternate suggestions you think would be better. I tried to keep it interesting, by giving the player different options (Terrifying Howl and Pouncing by level 10, then eventually Come and Get Me, being the main focuses).
I appreciate any input. :)
2nd: Beast Totem, Lesser - While raging, the barbarian gains two claw attacks. These attacks are considered primary attacks and are made at the barbarian’s full base attack bonus. The claws deal 1d6 points of slashing damage (1d4 if Small) plus the barbarian’s Strength modifier.
This ability can be useful in early levels, where two attacks with claws, both at your full BAB, outclasses what you could do a single weapon attack, and sometimes even when you get a second weapon attack (since both claw attacks would be at your full BAB). Eventually, though, the claw attacks will cease to be useful (though they're a nice backup to have if you find yourself disarmed), but this remains a necessary prerequisite for the later Beast Totem powers.
4th: Intimidating Glare - Make an Intimidate check as a move action against one adjacent foe as a move action. If you succeed, the foe is shaken for 1d4 rounds, plus one round for every 5 points by which your check exceeded the DC.
This is a nice little ability; Intimidate checks are not too difficult to make, and the “shaken” condition gives the opponent a -2 on pretty much everything. Also a necessary prerequisite to the Terrifying Howl ability that we'll pick up later.
6th: Beast Totem - While raging, the barbarian gains a +1 natural armor bonus. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels the barbarian has attained.
Which this is still a step on the path to the ultimate Beast Totem prize, this power is nothing at all to sneeze at. A +2 natural armor bonus when you take it, which is good at level 6, and which will continue to increase from there. At the highest level this will be granting you a +6 natural armor bonus. You could eventually replicate this with magic items, but this saves you the money, gets you the bonus earlier, and leaves room for a different item.
8th: Terrifying Howl – The barbarian unleashes a terrifying howl as a standard action. All shaken enemies within 30 feet must make a Will save (DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the barbarian's level + the barbarian's Strength modifier) or be panicked for 1d4+1 rounds. Once an enemy has made a save versus terrifying howl (successful or not), it is immune to this power for 24 hours.
A fun ability; this lets you panic your opponents within 30 feet (if they're panicked, they basically run away screaming). The only catch is that they need to be shaken first. You can do this one at a time with your Intimidating Glare ability, but that's not terribly efficient. This can work very well with the party bard's Dirge of Doom Bardic performance, which will automatically make all the enemies within 30 ft of him shaken. The problem with this is that the combo will then only work on the foes that are within 30 ft. of both of you, which can be a limitation, since you'll be moving a lot.
For the best combo, you can also pick up the Dazzling Display feat, which will let you make an Intimidate check on all the opponents within 30 feet to make them Shaken. If you do this, you'll want to invest in both of the feats Skill Focus (Intimidate), and Intimidating Prowess as well, which will boost your Intimidate skill to the point where you'll almost always succeed (as long as you keep putting skill points into Intimidate) So, that will be four feats in total: Weapon Focus (), Dazzling Display, Skill Focus (Intimidate), Intimidating Prowess. For going this route, it's also good to be a Half-Orc, who get an extra +2 on Intimidate (plus they can see in the dark :) ).
10th: Beast Totem, Greater - While raging, the barbarian gains the pounce special ability, allowing her to make a full attack at the end of a charge. In addition, the damage from her claws increases to 1d8 (1d6 if Small) and the claws deal x 3 damage on a critical hit.
Yes! Forget about the claws thing, that's incidental. The pounce ability will let you move or charge (that's up to 80 ft. for you) and make a full-attack on the opponent you just charged. This is a very rare, and very powerful, ability; other characters can only make a single attack after they charge. You can imagine a scenario in which you pounce on one enemy, rip it to shreds, pounce on the next, etc. =D Also, charging gives you a +2 attack bonus (and a -2 AC penalty, unfortunately), but that will apply to all of your attacks.
12th: Clear Mind - A barbarian may reroll a failed Will save. This power is used as an immediate action after the first save is attempted, but before the results are revealed by the GM. The barbarian must take the second result, even if it is worse. This power can only be used once per rage.
Now we're going to shore up some of the Barbarian's weaknesses. Will saves are one of those weaknesses. Failing a reflex save is usually just bad, but failing a will save can be disastrous. (You'll probably not need worry about Fortitude saves, which the Barbarian is good at). This ability basically grants a redo on a will save, once per rage. So, if you fail, you get to try once more. If you have a feat to spare, you can also tack on Iron Will, which will put you in a very strong position regarding Will saves.
14th: Guarded Stance - The barbarian gains a +1 dodge bonus to her Armor Class against melee attacks for a number of rounds equal to the barbarian's current Constitution modifier (minimum 1). This bonus increases by +1 for every 6 levels the barbarian has attained. Activating this ability is a move action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
This is shoring up another of the Barbarian's weaknesses a bit, which is Armor. When you get this ability, you can activate it with a movement action (which means you couldn't do this, and take a full attack, in the same round, unfortunately). However, it will last a number of rounds equal to your CON modifier, which will be between 7 and 8 rounds by the time you get it (due to the increases of CON from raging, and magic items you'll likely have by that point). So, it's a very rare situation in which you'd have to activate it more than once per rage, since combats very rarely last much more than 7 or 8 rounds. This will especially shine in conjunction with the next ability:
16th: Come and Get Me - While raging, as a free action the barbarian may leave herself open to attack while preparing devastating counterattacks. Enemies gain a +4 bonus on attack and damage rolls against the barbarian until the beginning of her next turn, but every attack against the barbarian provokes an attack of opportunity from her, which is resolved prior to resolving each enemy attack.
This basically means that you invite your opponents to attack you, but prepare for the attacks at the same time. It gives the opponents around you a large (+4) bonus on attack and damage (the attack bonus is completely canceled out by Guarded Stance, though, by level 18). However, the cool thing is, whenever one of them does attack you, you get to attack them first, and if your attack kills them, they don't actually get to make their attack. This will be more effective against larger groups of relatively weaker enemies, especially when you have a good chance of killing some of them in a single hit (usually with a critical).
To make this ability effective, you'll have to take the Combat Reflexes feat before it. See, the preemptive attacks you make against your opponents are attacks of opportunity, which normally you only get one of in a round. But the Combat Reflexes feat will give you additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus, which will almost always be more than you'll use.
18th: Powerful Blow - The barbarian gains a +1 bonus on a single damage roll. This bonus increases by +1 for every 4 levels the barbarian has attained. This power is used as a swift action before the roll to hit is made. This power can only be used once per rage.
This may not seem like much at first, since you can only use it once per rage. But, the previous level (at 17), you'll have gotten Tireless Rage, which basically means you can enter and leave a rage whenever you want. Or, re-enter a rage every single round. Which means that you get to add this damage bonus (+5 when you get this ability) to an attack roll every round.
The disadvantage to doing this is, when you leave and re-enter the rage, your rage powers with duration, such as your Guarded Stance AC bonus, will be lost, unless you restart it as well. Also, be careful that by leaving the rage your hit points don't drop to the point where you're unconscious.
20th: Flesh Wound - Once per rage, the barbarian can try to avoid serious harm from an attack. The barbarian must make a Fortitude save with a DC equal to the damage that would be dealt by the attack. The barbarian’s armor check penalty applies on this saving throw. If the save succeeds, the barbarian takes half damage from the attack and the damage is nonlethal. The barbarian must elect to use this ability after the attack roll is made, but before the damage is rolled.
Basically what this does is let you avoid a massive amount of damage from one attack every rage, with a successful fortitude save. Since your fortitude save will be very, very high, this is a good deal, though you're still not guaranteed to always make the save. Best of all, just like Powerful blow, you can leave, and re-enter, a rage every round at this point to be able to do this once per round!
i'd use a haf orc and the invulnerable rager archtype.
take the trait to gain a bite attack.
power attack, furious focus, and the "step up" chain of feats. use a falchion.
Yes, I was already going to suggest half-orc. I allow racial-trait replacements on an approval basis. I'll have to think about whether I'm going to allow that one or not; it would make the 2nd level barbarian way, way, way, way, way too powerful. A 2nd level character with 3 attacks at full BAB, and full STR bonus? Uh... probably going to have to veto that. Or, just not suggest it, because this player won't think to do it on their own at this stage.
Good suggestions with power attack and furious focus. Not sure about the "step up" ones. It's powerful, no doubt, but I'm not sure if there is a sufficient amount of "interestingness" dividend for the investment of three feats.
The Step Up chain is quite potent, as a barbarian with the freedom to full attack something, especially a squishy caster, will wreck face in solo combat. By making sure they can't escape melee range, you're ensuring your ability to keep up the pressure. Also, the bite attack would not be at full BAB if he had the Beast Totem claws. Either the claws or the bite would become secondary attacks, thus taken at a -5 penalty, with only half Strength added to damage.
The Step Up chain is quite potent, as a barbarian with the freedom to full attack something, especially a squishy caster, will wreck face in solo combat. By making sure they can't escape melee range, you're ensuring your ability to keep up the pressure.
I'm not at all doubting it's power; perhaps I'll just explain it to him, and let him decide whether it's interesting enough for his tastes. :)
Also, the bite attack would not be at full BAB if he had the Beast Totem claws. Either the claws or the bite would become secondary attacks, thus taken at a -5 penalty, with only half Strength added to damage.
Huh; that certainly makes sense, but can you tell me where you get that from? I don't at all doubt you, but I'm disturbed that I didn't know that. Following that both are listed as primary natural attacks, and that "Primary attacks are made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and add the creature’s full Strength bonus on damage rolls."
|
i'd use a haf orc and the invulnerable rager archtype.
take the trait to gain a bite attack.
power attack, furious focus, and the "step up" chain of feats. use a falchion.
Yes, I was already going to suggest half-orc. I allow racial-trait replacements on an approval basis. I'll have to think about whether I'm going to allow that one or not; it would make the 2nd level barbarian way, way, way, way, way too powerful. A 2nd level character with 3 attacks at full BAB, and full STR bonus? Uh... probably going to have to veto that. Or, just not suggest it, because this player won't think to do it on their own at this stage.
Good suggestions with power attack and furious focus. Not sure about the "step up" ones. It's powerful, no doubt, but I'm not sure if there is a sufficient amount of "interestingness" dividend for the investment of three feats.
not the replacement trait. the character trait everyone gets 2 of. i'd suggest heirloom weapon to start with a mwk falchion and the trait that grants a bite
not the replacement trait. the character trait everyone gets 2 of. i'd suggest heirloom weapon to start with a mwk falchion and the trait that grants a bite
Perhaps I'm just hopelessly confused, but you linked me to a feat, not a trait. I'd have no problem with him taking a feat to gain the bite attack as a secondary; it's too powerful for a trait, anyway.
As for toothy, the race replacement ability, I'm now assuming that Sunset is correct in how it works, and thus I have no issue granting it; especially since it would become useless in conjuction with a weapon (since combining weapons with naturals in this way makes them *both* bad)
Well, if he had the bite but wielded a weapon, he could still use it in conjunction with a full attack. The primary weapon attack would take no penalties. But an attack at -5 for 1d4+ half strength bonus isn't particularly strong. As for the rule about limiting primary natural attacks, I could swear I saw it somewhere, as I was reading up on wild shaping druids and summoner eidolons somewhere, but I'm still looking for where it's specifically stated.
Well, if he had the bite but wielded a weapon, he could still use it in conjunction with a full attack. The primary weapon attack would take no penalties. But an attack at -5 for 1d4+ half strength bonus isn't particularly strong. As for the rule about limiting primary natural attacks, I could swear I saw it somewhere, as I was reading up on wild shaping druids and summoner eidolons somewhere, but I'm still looking for where it's specifically stated.
From http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Attack:
The last paragraph under Natural Attacks reads:
"You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties."
This would seem to say that if you attack with your sword, *and* bite, then the bite would get the -5 and half strength, yes, but the sword attacks would be treated as if you were two-weapon fighting. Making it inadvisable to bother with the bite.
|
|
not the replacement trait. the character trait everyone gets 2 of. i'd suggest heirloom weapon to start with a mwk falchion and the trait that grants a bitePerhaps I'm just hopelessly confused, but you linked me to a feat, not a trait. I'd have no problem with him taking a feat to gain the bite attack as a secondary; it's too powerful for a trait, anyway.
As for toothy, the race replacement ability, I'm now assuming that Sunset is correct in how it works, and thus I have no issue granting it; especially since it would become useless in conjuction with a weapon (since combining weapons with naturals in this way makes them *both* bad)
Tusked (Half-Orc, Orc)
Source Orcs of Golarion 23Huge, sharp tusks bulge from your mouth, and you receive a bite attack (1d4 damage for Medium characters). If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is made at your full base attack bonus –5.
not the replacement trait. the character trait everyone gets 2 of. i'd suggest heirloom weapon to start with a mwk falchion and the trait that grants a bitePerhaps I'm just hopelessly confused, but you linked me to a feat, not a trait. I'd have no problem with him taking a feat to gain the bite attack as a secondary; it's too powerful for a trait, anyway.
As for toothy, the race replacement ability, I'm now assuming that Sunset is correct in how it works, and thus I have no issue granting it; especially since it would become useless in conjuction with a weapon (since combining weapons with naturals in this way makes them *both* bad)
Tusked (Half-Orc, Orc)
Source Orcs of Golarion 23
Huge, sharp tusks bulge from your mouth, and you receive a bite attack (1d4 damage for Medium characters). If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is made at your full base attack bonus –5.
That's very odd... a trait and feat that do the same thing. Ah, well. I wouldn't care that much, even if he wanted to take it as a trait, since it becomes useless once you start wielding weapons.
Thank you both very much for the input so far :) Can I ask if you think the rage power list itself looks a good combination of interesting and viable?
I would suggest that you substitute strenght surge into the rage power list. Adding your barbarian level to a CMB/CMD check can be brutal and really help you out at necesary times.
That being said, the reason the weapon and natural attack at the same time does actually work. Is that the rules in the core book are wrong. I wonder when they are ever going to errata it. Its a leftover copy paste error they did when the book was made. The real rules is found in the bestiary, and they clearly say that attacking with a wp ad natural attack, is just like attacking with a normal weapon, and the natural attacks count as secondary and recieve 1/2 str.
i'd use Invulnerable Rager
2-lesser beast totem
4-Reckless Abandon,
6-Beast totem
8-Superstitious or Disruptive
10-greater beast totem
12-whatever you didnt take at 8thlesser beast totem + reckless abandon+Greater beast totem+power attack + furious focus=a whole lotta pain
Hmm... Reckless Abandon is definitely something to consider. Maybe I'll trade out Guarded stance for that. Good idea.
The superstitious power line is powerful, no doubt, put pretty boring. I'll propose it as an alternative, probably. The nice thing about having the terrifying yell *and* the pounce, is that it gives the player two very different types of exciting things to do in combat. I can probably drop the Clear Mind, though, in favor of Superstition, at least... hmm...
I would suggest that you substitute strenght surge into the rage power list. Adding your barbarian level to a CMB/CMD check can be brutal and really help you out at necesary times.
That being said, the reason the weapon and natural attack at the same time does actually work. Is that the rules in the core book are wrong. I wonder when they are ever going to errata it. Its a leftover copy paste error they did when the book was made. The real rules is found in the bestiary, and they clearly say that attacking with a wp ad natural attack, is just like attacking with a normal weapon, and the natural attacks count as secondary and recieve 1/2 str.
Hmm... if that's the case, that it can be added to each and every full attack as a secondary attack, forever, then it's too powerful for a trait. I'll let them take it as a racial swap out, or a feat, though.
Thanks for the clarification. Annoying that the Core Rulebook is the one that's wrong :(
claw/claw/bit would all be at full BAB and he can get it with a feat or racial alternate. Just to clear that up. You otherwise have a good list already set up, terrifying howl works better with the fiend totem line because of the capstone (doesn't work on evil but all those neutral enemies will be auto effected). Sounds like he will have more fun with pounce then a gore attack and barbed skin though.
claw/claw/bit would all be at full BAB and he can get it with a feat or racial alternate. Just to clear that up.
Well, bottom line is, I cannot allow a 2nd level character to have 3 attacks at full BAB and full STR bonus. I've made it clear that everything outside of PCR is subject to my approval anyway, so I'll just tell him that if he wants to take it, then the bite will count as a secondary when in combination with either the claws, or with a weapon. If that's not the official rule, then it's rule 0, in this case.
You otherwise have a good list already set up, terrifying howl works better with the fiend totem line because of the capstone (doesn't work on evil but all those neutral enemies will be auto effected). Sounds like he will have more fun with pounce then a gore attack and barbed skin though.
Yeah, knowing him, he wouldn't like being demonic. Plus, the significant majority of enemies that they'll be facing on this campaign will be evil, I'd guess 60-70%, so it would be kind of a waste.
Well, bottom line is, I cannot allow a 2nd level character to have 3 attacks at full BAB and full STR bonus. I've made it clear that everything outside of PCR is subject to my approval anyway, so I'll just tell him that if he wants to take it, then the bite will count as a secondary when in combination with either the claws, or with a weapon. If that's not the official rule, then it's rule 0, in this case.
Then I have bad news, If he reads the first rage power listed in the core rulebook he can get a bite attack anyway....
Lets hope he just takes what you give him I suppose.
Well, bottom line is, I cannot allow a 2nd level character to have 3 attacks at full BAB and full STR bonus. I've made it clear that everything outside of PCR is subject to my approval anyway, so I'll just tell him that if he wants to take it, then the bite will count as a secondary when in combination with either the claws, or with a weapon. If that's not the official rule, then it's rule 0, in this case.Then I have bad news, If he reads the first rage power listed in the core rulebook he can get a bite attack anyway....
Lets hope he just takes what you give him I suppose.
If he actually wants to use a rage power on it, then I'll probably let him. For one thing, that means he wouldn't be able to get all three attacks until level 4. For another, it's not a very good use of a rage power, since once you switch to weapons over claws, the bite attack offers less... bite than your other rage power options.
Then I have bad news, If he reads the first rage power listed in the core rulebook he can get a bite attack anyway....
Lets hope he just takes what you give him I suppose.
And actually, the rule there specifically says he gets it at -5 and 1/2 strength with a full attack, which makes it absolutely terrible for a rage power choice.
"While raging, the barbarian gains a bite attack. If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is made at the barbarian's full base attack bonus –5. If the bite hits, it deals 1d4 points of damage (assuming the barbarian is Medium; 1d3 points of damage if Small) plus half the barbarian's Strength modifier."
And actually, the rule there specifically says he gets it at -5 and 1/2 strength with a full attack, which makes it absolutely terrible for a rage power choice."While raging, the barbarian gains a bite attack. If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is made at the barbarian's full base attack bonus –5. If the bite hits, it deals 1d4 points of damage (assuming the barbarian is Medium; 1d3 points of damage if Small) plus half the barbarian's Strength modifier."
Well that helps, and you can spend a feat to get a rage power by the way, so level 3 is minimum
Well that helps, and you can spend a feat to get a rage power by the way, so level 3 is minimum
Ah, true; I'd forgotten about the feat option.
But, since the rage power makes it a secondary attack, anyway, he may as well just take the biting feat directly, so that the use of the bite is not rage dependent.
Ah, true; I'd forgotten about the feat option.
But, since the rage power makes it a secondary attack, anyway, he may as well just take the biting feat directly, so that the use of the bite is not rage dependent.
Except you don't plan to let him ;)
I wouldn't say it is that OP anyway, an alchemist can do the same thing with one discovery, can even get +4 STR with mutagen.
clear mind: I wonder about the level of knowledge it requires from a new player. Is he going to be comfortable guessing whether a save roll is good enough? Superstition potentially can address the same issue and seems to me to fit the wild beast motif.
come and get me: take this at level 12, it gives the player more fun choices/actions to do whereas the other powers are just giving relatively boring statistical buffs.