Need help from anthropologist


Homebrew and House Rules


So I bought The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt, which brought on The Itch. I'm trying to rationalize the development of an equally monumental and advanced culture in an Arctic or Subarctic climate, but I can't think of a reasonable mechanism for maintaining a hospitable microclime (i.e. a Nile equivalent). Large domesticated animals will be necessary (as per Jared Diamond's work), but a large civilization would quickly run out of whale blubber. Short of harvesting methane clathrate deposits or living next to a volcano, they'd quickly freeze to death. I'd like to keep cleric/wizard/adept at 1% of the population or less, but I'm a chemistry major! I've never even seen Nanook of the North! Help me, educated professional/hobbyist with nothing better to do on a Wednesday than browse the Paizo boards, you're my only hope.


Geothermal vents=The only heat and unfrozen fresh water to be found for miles.


+1 to Geothermal -- look at what's happening in Iceland, for instance, in terms of their ability to generate power.

You could have enough localized volcanic (well, hotspring) activity to provide at least a decent growing season in the summer (during which time, there'd be near-24 hour sunlight as well). In "winter" the area may lose its lushness -- but that's how life works in most non-tropical lands anyway.

Remember, too, that volcanic ash (and associated products) makes an excellent fertilizer (which is why so many societies planted themselves next to smoking mountains that could rain fiery death on them) -- so that's got you with some built-in incentive to use those lands.

Beyond that, it's up to you in terms of what you'd want to use as domesticated animals -- but a you could use reindeer in most of the places you'd use horses, and then a large, furry herd animal (caribou, bison) to replace oxen.


To be more specific, you have a large Ice sheet. Then you have a mountain, that starts on the sea floor, and would be an island if it were not encased in the ice sheet. Now, this mountain has a top that can reach above the ice.

You now have an "Island" of rock in the ice. Now, this island has geothermal vents. These vents heat the ice and melt it into hot springs. The rock shields these springs from the weather and the fresh water allows hardy plants to be grown. Mostly tundra grass and lichen. Large herd animals can graze, and crops can be grown. But there is also the tundra and sea ice to hunt on. the sea ice is like the desert of egypt, very inhospitable to humans. But it can be overcome in order to hunt seal and for ice fishing.


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Thelemic_Noun wrote:
So I bought The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt, which brought on The Itch. I'm trying to rationalize the development of an equally monumental and advanced culture in an Arctic or Subarctic climate, but I can't think of a reasonable mechanism for maintaining a hospitable microclime (i.e. a Nile equivalent). Large domesticated animals will be necessary (as per Jared Diamond's work), but a large civilization would quickly run out of whale blubber. Short of harvesting methane clathrate deposits or living next to a volcano, they'd quickly freeze to death. I'd like to keep cleric/wizard/adept at 1% of the population or less, but I'm a chemistry major! I've never even seen Nanook of the North! Help me, educated professional/hobbyist with nothing better to do on a Wednesday than browse the Paizo boards, you're my only hope.

I'm a hobbyist, not a professional. The others are right on about geothermal resources, but let me add that a favorable ocean current can make a staggering amount of difference. A warm coastal current is a big part of helping higher latitudes have more mild climes. It's why the west coast of the US doesn't get the same miserable winter the east coast and inland North America does. It's also why most of Europe has such a mild climate despite being pretty far north. Paris has such mild winters that I understand a snowstorm closes it down much like one would close down Washington, DC. It's 48 N. I live almost right on 45 N and wish I had winters that mild. :)

Contributor

Samnell wrote:
Thelemic_Noun wrote:
So I bought The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt, which brought on The Itch. I'm trying to rationalize the development of an equally monumental and advanced culture in an Arctic or Subarctic climate, but I can't think of a reasonable mechanism for maintaining a hospitable microclime (i.e. a Nile equivalent). Large domesticated animals will be necessary (as per Jared Diamond's work), but a large civilization would quickly run out of whale blubber. Short of harvesting methane clathrate deposits or living next to a volcano, they'd quickly freeze to death. I'd like to keep cleric/wizard/adept at 1% of the population or less, but I'm a chemistry major! I've never even seen Nanook of the North! Help me, educated professional/hobbyist with nothing better to do on a Wednesday than browse the Paizo boards, you're my only hope.
I'm a hobbyist, not a professional. The others are right on about geothermal resources, but let me add that a favorable ocean current can make a staggering amount of difference. A warm coastal current is a big part of helping higher latitudes have more mild climes. It's why the west coast of the US doesn't get the same miserable winter the east coast and inland North America does. It's also why most of Europe has such a mild climate despite being pretty far north. Paris has such mild winters that I understand a snowstorm closes it down much like one would close down Washington, DC. It's 48 N. I live almost right on 45 N and wish I had winters that mild. :)

Um.... I'm a Californian and we have a coldwater current down the coast, bringing chilly water down from Alaska. You have to go all the way down to San Diego before the water starts to warm up. San Francisco gets cold and foggy, but it never snows there, apart from rare hundred-year occurrences.

In any case, geothermal seems a reasonable way to go. Or have your civilization be frost giants, who aren't bothered by the cold.

Scarab Sages

Thelemic_Noun wrote:
So I bought The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt, which brought on The Itch. I'm trying to rationalize the development of an equally monumental and advanced culture in an Arctic or Subarctic climate.

Have you seen the Hyperboreans, in the Conan setting?

Dark Horse expanded on Howard's work, int the current series.


Thelemic_Noun wrote:
So I bought The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt, which brought on The Itch. I'm trying to rationalize the development of an equally monumental and advanced culture in an Arctic or Subarctic climate, but I can't think of a reasonable mechanism for maintaining a hospitable microclime (i.e. a Nile equivalent). Large domesticated animals will be necessary (as per Jared Diamond's work), but a large civilization would quickly run out of whale blubber. Short of harvesting methane clathrate deposits or living next to a volcano, they'd quickly freeze to death.

Of the things this society would need in order to develop into something similar to ancient egypt, I can think of the following:

- The ability to harvest enough food to store surplus and the means to conserve it. In ancient Egypt, grain was produced in mass from its particularly fertile lands and stored in dry silos/warehouses.

- The ability to free part of the populace to produce great public works and realizations without affecting your main source of subsistence. Egypt benefited from the same seasons of flood that was behind its legendary fertility to use farmer and laborers on other projects while the fields weren't available yet.

- A level of education among the elite that allows for the planning, organization and realization of all of the above. This implies a ruling class, an 'elite' class of engineers and foremen, a (poorer) working class of specialized craftsmen like stone-cutters, masons, etc and a lower class of farmers and generic laborers.

Other than that, easy access to warmth is essential. Geothermal activity would seem most logical, as it would be available to the rich and poor alike.

'findel


It's a magical fantasy world. Geothermal is fine, but some magical source of heat and energy would be just as plausible in a magical fantasy world. A thousand years ago a powerful wizard opened up a rift to the plane of fire and the result was a large valley hidden deep in the arctic mountains with a climate comparable to England. The poorly prepared wizard was fried to a crisp by his own spell.

If you prefer an ongoing mechanism, then have a cult of priests who are trained in creating small rifts to the plane of fire which "heal" over time so the priests are required to maintain the climate. That would give you some hooks to create quests. Perhaps something is targeting the priests which threatens to destroy the entire ecosystem.

I'd go with a more fantasy explanation just because it's a fantasy game.

Sovereign Court

Geothermal would definitely be a means of keeping pockets warmer than the surrounding average. However, it would not necessarily be a means to a readily abundant food supply. Most typical crop plants do not fair well in arboreal or subarctic areas naturally. Hunting, foraging and aquaculture (fishing and kelp harvesting, for example) would typically be the norm.

Additionally, Egypt was in a prime location for trade (or plunder) with other civilizations around the Mediterranean, which did not hurt in empire building.

The main thing to keep in mind, though, is this is a fantasy setting. Any and all hardships could be overcome due to a particularly benevolent deity (or a particularly malevolent one which granted boons only by means of regular sacrifices). This could lead to a theocratic society, not unlike that in Ancient Egypt, possibly with the leader being viewed as the avatar, or even embodiment, of the deity involved.

Or perhaps, there was a natural affinity towards magic within the original population which allowed them to thrive. This early society could give rise to a Magocracy where those who were particularly adept with magic rule.

You have numerous possibilities beyond the natural world to explain the rise of a civilization in a stark landscape that developed along the lines of Ancient Egypt. Have fun with it.

EDIT: Ninja'd!!! :)


The advantage to a magical source is that it makes for interesting plot-hooks...

You could, for instance, have a ruler who is worshipped as a god by a very... shall we say.... "loyal" populace... The Wizardy-Overlordy folk are literally the ones who hold life and death in their hands... even if that particular power hasn't been passed down across the generations.

Another possibility would be that there's a rift that's closing and needs to be investigated -- either by the magelords who are trying to maintain power, rebels who want to overthrow the magelords and don't think they need 'em anymore, etc, etc...

Or, the magic could be trapped elementals, dragons, etc. -- who are slowly being leeched of their energy/power...

I apologize... you turned on the "science" part of my brain and not the "imagination" one.

Another thing to consider is that a civilization with magic can do much to offset the need for animals - whether it's from buffing up slaves and rendering them resistant to fatigue, trapping magical beasts, or just using mid-to-high-level spells to get what they want.


During the New Kingdom, when Egypt was at it's most powerful as an empire, they also controlled the "worlds" gold supply. Money to fund military and political endeavors is another major factor. Giving the culture access to something exclusive that makes them extremely wealthy gives them the power to achieve the things they want.

Diamonds and other gems are extremely useful for spellcasters, in addition to their normally high value. Controlling the diamond supply would give a culture significant power when dealing with other cultures in the world. In addition, they'd be able to keep their most important members of society alive into old age, having wider access to Raise Dead and Restoration, giving them a few more scholars and learned leaders. If they have a tradition of placing a high value on their knowledge, these people would all be afforded one last opportunity to write down their experiences to leave behind everything they learned in their life.

Another thing to consider is location. Being in a location that can serve as a trade route allows you to trade your economic resource for the other things you need. Having the trade pass through your territory gives you the opportunity to tax it. I'd imagine something like the Bearing Straight land bridge, but with a healthy trade between Asia and America going through. If you add some massive danger to the middle of the Pacific Ocean, you have even more reason why merchants have to go so far north.

Dark Archive

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Laurefindel wrote:
Thelemic_Noun wrote:
So I bought The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt, which brought on The Itch. I'm trying to rationalize the development of an equally monumental and advanced culture in an Arctic or Subarctic climate, but I can't think of a reasonable mechanism for maintaining a hospitable microclime (i.e. a Nile equivalent). Large domesticated animals will be necessary (as per Jared Diamond's work), but a large civilization would quickly run out of whale blubber. Short of harvesting methane clathrate deposits or living next to a volcano, they'd quickly freeze to death.

Of the things this society would need in order to develop into something similar to ancient egypt, I can think of the following:

- The ability to harvest enough food to store surplus and the means to conserve it. In ancient Egypt, grain was produced in mass from its particularly fertile lands and stored in dry silos/warehouses.

- The ability to free part of the populace to produce great public works and realizations without affecting your main source of subsistence. Egypt benefited from the same seasons of flood that was behind its legendary fertility to use farmer and laborers on other projects while the fields weren't available yet.

- A level of education among the elite that allows for the planning, organization and realization of all of the above. This implies a ruling class, an 'elite' class of engineers and foremen, a (poorer) working class of specialized craftsmen like stone-cutters, masons, etc and a lower class of farmers and generic laborers.

Other than that, easy access to warmth is essential. Geothermal activity would seem most logical, as it would be available to the rich and poor alike.

Laurefindel has it here, I think.

In ye olde Egypt, the Nile flooded, the land was rich and fertile for a season, a surplus of food was generated, and then, short-sightedly, sold off at ever-increasing prices as supplies got lean, leading to hard infertile months of suffering and privation and rioting starving farmers.

Some smarter-than-average Pharoah got sick of these food riots every year and just taxed *everything* they produced, and then hired the farmers during the off-months to build granaries to store all of the food he'd pretty much stolen from them, and paying them back with the grain they would have sold off, if he'd let them manage their own affairs.

Once Egypt had the granaries it needed to store the grain, and the cats had taken care of the sudden overpopulation of rats getting into the grain, leading to some wag deciding that cats were holy creatures, sent by the gods to save Egypt from ruin, whichever Pharoah was now in charge realized that he needed *something* for the darn farmers to do during the off-months, so they started forming them into work-crews (managed by the village headmen, they even have 'work contracts' left behind detailing this practice) and building ridiculous monuments instead, to keep the thousands of idle hands busy during the lean months, and continuing to 'pay' them in the grain that had been taxed from them during the fertile season.

Mapping this over to an arctic culture, with a fertile 'season' that lasts all 'long day' long, and a barren 'season' that lasts all the many months of night, the local leadership would tax the grains and foods produced during the fertile season, store them, and then 'hire' the former farmers during the off-season to do public works, paying them back in their own confiscated food.

Some manner of dealing with the critter infestations that accompany mass storage of food (such as Egypts cat solution) would be necessary. Magic would be easy, if this was a higher-magic setting, but it sounds like you want a lower-magic solution, which could be as simple as the grain storage areas being far from the geothermal vents, and 'refrigerated' by the icy temperatures in the food storage 'graineriies.' A local animal could also 'work' the area, such as a massive city population of snowy owls or bats or ferrets or arctic foxes or something (if the cat thing doesn't suit the feel you are going for), that hunt the graineries, eliminating both insects and rodents that would eat (and, via their droppings, taint) the stored food.

Since the 'dry season' in this arctic thermal vent paradise would be the dark 'long night,' and not an actual 'dry' season, some method of dealing with the darkness would also be a necessity. Perhaps the geothermal pools that keep the local micro-climate warm enough to sustain agriculture are also home to phosphoresent bacteria, making the 'night' in the kingdom a bit less dark than normal, and allowing for some outdoors activity that wouldn't require as much burning of wood or oil. Then again, rather than phosphorescent algae or bacteria, perhaps the region *also* has some natural tar pits, and a ready source of fuel oil, which might be combined with flammable oils harvested from sea life (if the culture has any oceanfront real estate, and a summer whaling season).

Either way, the land doesn't seem to be the sort of place that would have a ton of wood to cut down and burn, or peat moss bogs, making oil (from whale, fish or the 'black blood of the earth') a necessity, or an alternate source like the glowing algae or a brighter and more consistent version of the aurora borealis.

Culturally, such a place would likely be highly stratified, and very lawful. The people may not explicitly remember the mass starvations and suffering that occured before the whole 'government steals your food and gives it back to you' scheme replaced the annual starvations and food riots, but they will have a very cyclical view of things, with this part of the year being the bright fertile time, and the other half of the year being the dark time when men must toil to make it through the long night and back to the next sunny time of plenty.

In Egypt, this sort of annual progression of seeing the cycles of birth and life and plenty, followed by barren dust and death, led to an obsession with death and the afterlife. This could occur here as well, or they could have a different focus entirely, seeing the dark times as drugery that must be endured and the fertile summer months as a time of love and laughter, and a celebration of life and fertility.

With times awake and asleep every day being smaller versions of the long day and long night, they might extend that to a third iteration, with the time of life being seen as a 'longer day' and the afterlife as a 'longer night,' a place of unrelenting darkness and cold, giving them a fatalistic view of death and a strong focus on getting the most out of life. They might cremate their dead, to 'keep their bodies warm,' or they might entomb them in the ice beyond the borders of their warmer-than-normal microclimate, and hold that there will come a 'Great Day' at some point in the future when the ice will all melt and everyone in the ice tombs will come back to life and there will never again be night or death or even sleep, with a green every sunny world of immortals. Different factions or faiths within this culture could have a dozen different versions of this sort of belief-structure, and some might violently disagree (burning bodies denies them the chance at resurrection when the Great Day comes! freezing bodies in icy tombs traps them in eternal cold and suffering, and fuels the endless cycle of night and day, and denies them a chance to escape!).

With the borders of the realm not benefitting from the warm geothermals, the edges would likely be defended by castles carved from ice or built with blocks of snow. It never rises above freezing on the borders of the kingdom, and so such castles and walls endure forever, holding back whatever forces dwell in the permanantly cold lands (winter wolves, frost giants, frost men, whatever). Those stationed here would receive shipments of black oil, whale/fish oil or heated stones in insulated kilns, to warm their bodies.

In a situation like Greenland, you could also have two distinct cultures. One, always native to the region, another arrived later (like the Scandinavians) by ship and settled into the region. Commonly, here on Earth, the latecomers tend to be the ones who take over and oppress the locals, but there's no reason you can't flip that idea on its head, if you want to have a race-based social stratification, and have the later arrivals be refugees from a dying land or a wartorn region or whatever, and have been fairly heartlessly taken advantage of by the locals, who know the secrets of their warm enclave of life in an otherwise inhospitable region. The lower-class citizens, whether natives or newcomers, could be the ones relegated to working the fields and building civic projects, or manning the ice-walls, or working the whaling ships, while the upper-class 'elites' manage from the central city (or cities, depending on the size of this region).

Combined with the interfaith disagreements, a race-based social divide, in addition to a massively disproportionate economic / status-based social division, could provide plenty of room for internal politicking and strife and storytelling opportunities.

Contributor

Having been to Alaska, one of the things that most impressed me were the giant cabbages they were able to grow during the summer months.

Cabbage means sauerkraut for the winter, so you pretty easily have your staple for your arctic society, especially when you combine it with smoked salmon, whale meat, and reindeer sausage. That's what your pharaoh is handing out during the winter, though I'd be more Norse and call him the thane.

Dark Archive

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Mmm. Cabbage as a staple. The homes will be able to be warmed by burning the methane that results...


A lot of good suggestions have been made so far, but I'd like to add my two cents. I think that despite geothermal energy potentially adding time to the growing season, the most reliable food source would be fish, walruses, seals, whales, and other seafood. Hence, I'd say that your civilization would almost certainly be coastal to harvest such a bounty. This would also supply whale oil and such for fuel, and I like the idea of a nearby source of oil or coal to supplement this.

As for beasts of burden, how about reindeer and musk oxen? As far as I know, both of these creatures can subsist on lichens and such, so they'd be able to survive in the colder climate surrounding the warmer microclimate. Due to the difficulty (at least I assume it'd be difficult) of cultivating lichens, and the small amount of humanoid-edible crops being needed for the populace, I imagine that they wouldn't be farmed like warm-climate cattle and the like, but semi-domesticated and allowed to wander as they will, and wrangled up when needed to pull a cart or when someone has a craving for reindeer steaks.

Finally, trade is a necessity for a large Egypt-style society. Perhaps your civilization is right in the middle of a busy trade route: with less reliable ship technology, maybe the merchant ships of other lands stay close to land as much as possible, and your land is conveniently located for this. Add a valuable resource like metals, gemstones (Greenland is notable for rubies, I've heard), or whatever else makes sense to you, and the motivation for traders to stop is that much better.

Finally, I think that domestic arctic foxes in place of cats would be great! While not of the arctic species, red foxes have been tamed in a research project in Russia, so I don't think that tame foxes is even a farfetched idea.


Set wrote:

Mmm. Cabbage as a staple. The homes will be able to be warmed by burning the methane that results...

Outstanding work in your previous post, and a genuine laugh from your next. Amazing!


have I got a beast of burden for you....


Following on from the theme of the Nile flooding annually to revitalise the soil and the comment about the benefits of volcanic ash for agriculture...

Every winter the land freezes over and people have to survive the long winter days off stored food. There are many volcanoes and hot springs in the land that make life (barely) survivable in winter and make the land relatively bountiful in summer.

Each year as winter ends the volcanoes start rumbling spreading beneficial ash across the land (an analogue to the annual flooding of the Nile). Some years the volcanoes are quiet and the soil does not get replenished, some years there are major eruptions that cause widepsread destruction.

As the ash disperion is uneven the location of the best agriculutal land changes from year to year, adding to the difficulties of both the populce and the rulers (population more mobile than the rulers would like, conflict over the best land, etc). The summer fecundity of the land allows for a large population - the pressures of such a large population being cooped up over the long winters create further social tensions.

Occasionally there are winter eruptions that cause even more damage as people cannot easily move to safe areas without suffering from the winter exposure.

Dark Archive

Gallo raises some neat points about the instability of depending on land warmed by geothermal vents.

Buildings will likely be squat at the base, and constructed of bricks of something (mud from the bubbling mudpits, backed into bricks, with straw from the grains grown in the fertile season as 'strengthener'), rather than using columns and beams for support. Such a land would likely be unstable and prone to tremors, if not the occasional nasty earthquake, making construction of tall monuments problematic. The sort of adobe construction from in central america would likely be more stable, for that sort of environment (weathering will also be a beast, in a land that spends months exposed to the sun, and more months cooling in the dark).

Pyramids, conveniently, are oh-so-stable, so a culture with an Egyptian feel would be able to have that signature building type in a land prone to earthquakes.

Such a land will be unlikely to traditional rivers, since water atop distant mountains will never melt. Instead, glacial highlands close enough to the warm zone to melt end up forming the primary source of any rivers that run through the fertile warmlands into the sea. In areas not conveniently close to these rivers, or lacking in wells, the locals might pull ice blocks on sledges from the arctic outskirts of the temperate zone to use as a freshwater source.

Thanks for the kind words, Thelemic_Noun!


In a fantasy world, there's also the tropical valley in between two glaciers trope.

While this valley does not have to sustain a tropical climate and be filled with dinosaurs, it could be warmed by a large hot spring whose warmth gets trapped in a long and narrow valley, enough to keep the ground from freezing long enough to till the land.

The volcanic activity could be far enough not to bother the inhabitants directly, yet periodic ash rains could fertilize the land once the inhabitant discovered a way to neutralize its acidity.

the river itself could be full of micro-organisms that act as a good fertilizer.

As some have mentioned before, the main sustenance does not have to come from the grain but from rice-like cereals, cattle, fish, fungi, insects etc. However, most large civilizations were developed around flour (and the ability to bake bread). Easy access to arctic winds could provide a mean to dry-freeze the meat and therefore allow for the storage of surplus.

That of course does not include magic which in D&D can alter any ecology. A couple of climate-controlling clerics dedicated to the sustenance of their people would be enough, but more vulnerable to political and religious insurrections (and perhaps less likely to survive eons).

'findel


If the land is far enough below sea level, the temperature scene out as they get close to the Mantle. Perhaps a meteor struck here, gouging a hole in the earth, or perhaps there is a moon that, strangely enough, is shaped almost exactly like the valley...


Thelemic_Noun wrote:
So I bought The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt, which brought on The Itch. I'm trying to rationalize the development of an equally monumental and advanced culture in an Arctic or Subarctic climate...

How about a group of fleeing elementalist wizards who lost a war/civil war have fled far, far to the north to escape pursuit. There they forge a new habitable empire with bound elementals (IE Fire elementals bound into the land to warm it to acceptible climates) to provide climate and weather control?

It IS a magic world after all. You could also use enslaved Earth Elementals to create your geothermal vents as needed too.


Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:


Um.... I'm a Californian and we have a coldwater current down the coast, bringing chilly water down from Alaska. You have to go all the way down to San Diego before the water starts to warm up. San Francisco gets cold and foggy, but it never snows there, apart from rare hundred-year occurrences.

SF is slightly further south than Washington, DC. DC doesn't get a lot of snow, and sometimes misses it entirely, but it's far from a hundred year occurrence. I'm wrong about the ocean current and stand corrected. (I was thinking of Europe, which does have one.) But the west coast of North America does have a milder climate than the east coast due to the moderating effect of the ocean.

The Exchange

A permanent plane gate to the positive energy, firtle or fire planes could also work.


I think Laurfindel and Set laid it all out. I only have a BA in Anthropology (my other degrees are in history) but the origins of civilization inevitably involve agriculture. Ag creates the surplus which allows job specialization. Another thing all the early civilizations have is the need for cooperatve organized labor projects. Irrigation / canals typically. This gets people working together and provides the need for oversite / leadership.

The geothermal vent thing has worked for a long time in fiction. Iirc, Edgar Rice Burroughs had the "yellow" Martians in his John Carter series in the polar areas with a lush valley rift and domed cities. I can think of a few other examples as well. Polar areas are also good places to find entryways into the "inner world" (ERB's Pellucidar series etc.). The ag food source could be underground (using fungus or a subterranean world similar to the above ground one).

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