[PF] Core Only Rogue

[Rasengan2theface]

I'm getting ready to play in an interesting PF game. It's a homebrewed setting, but uses PF rules as the system. I'm essentially playing an Apache Indian Scout, using the rogue class as the base, but I'm having a hard time choosing feats and rogue tricks to fill out this concept because it is Core only.

So far I've decided on Two-Weapon Fighting since the Apache are known for their skills with a dagger and they did some of their best work with two blades.

Stats::: Str 11, Dex 19, Con 16, Int 15, Wis 14, Cha 13

:::Feats:::
Human Feat - Two-Weapon Fighting
Feat Level 1 - Improved Initiative
Feat Level 3 - Combat Reflexes
Feat Level 5 -
Feat Level 7 -
Feat Level 9 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Feat Level 11 - Improved Critical
Feat Level 13 -
Feat Level 15 -
Feat Level 17 -
Feat Level 19 -

:::Rogue Talents:::
RT Level 2 - Finesse Rogue (Gain Weapon Finesse as a Feat)
RT Level 4 - Fast Stealth
RT Level 6 - Bleeding Attack
RT Level 8 - Stand Up
RT Level 10 - Crippling Strike
RT Level 12 - Opportunist
RT Level 14 -
RT Level 16 -
RT Level 18 -
RT Level 20 -

I'll update this part of the post as I make decisions.

I'm really dancing around with a lot of thoughts, but not really pulling in anything that makes me go "oh wow...I need that..."

Any thoughts about "as a rogue that can only use core, you need THIS"?

:::Top Consideration for Feats and Talents:::

:::Talents:::
Bleeding Attack, Fast Stealth, Finesse Rogue, Resiliency, Stand Up, Trap Spotter, Weapon Training, Combat Trick

:::Advanced Talents:::
Crippling Strike, Opportunist, Slippery Mind, Feat

:::Feats:
Two-Weapon Fighting Chain, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Greater Disarm, Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical, Dodge, Wind Stance, Lightning Stance, Great Fortitude and Iron Will/Improved, Quick Draw

I'm concerned with making this play like the concept, but being effective is always a big plus as well.

In thinking about it, the Apache were also a spiritual people and having something strange or mystic might not be too much of a stretch. This has caused me to consider taking levels into Shadowdancer or Assassin, if the DM will wave the "Evil Only" requirement. Any thoughts as to how the build should look if I took either or both of those paths would be appreciated as well.

[leo1925]

You might want to take a look at that.

[Maxximilius]

Rogue, core only ? Masochism or sadism, considering the improvement in variety from APG.
Leo1925 pointed you to a nice guide to help you. Though, you should ask your DM if you can at least use the APG's Scout archetype and talents. Because, come on dude.

[SunsetPsychosis]

Just my opinion, but it seems to me that a Ranger would be a more fitting class for an Apache than a rogue. Rangers get two-weapon fighting, wilderness skills, and mild mysticism in their bonds with animals (or spirits) and their spellcasting.

[Anonymous Visitor 163 576]

Having read a bit about Geronimo, I'll push for switching INT and STR. The Apache were not scholars who spent a lot of time in school. They were tough, and would undergo harsh physical challenges as children to prepare to be warriors.

You'll want ranks in survival like no one's business. Ranger might be the way to go, or at least rogue/ranger.

For feats (core only) I'd suggest quick draw, mounted combat, and exotic weapon (rifle).

If you can go backward, 3.5's Wildrunner is a good fit for Apache. If not, barbarians are core.

[Lord Zeb]

I think you have a great start, I'd do the stats like this:

Stats::: Str 15, Dex 19, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 11

[Lord Zeb]

With the high dex, ImpInit can wait maybe?

How about?

:::Feats:::
Human Feat - Two-Weapon Fighting
Feat Level 1 - Combat Reflexes
Feat Level 3 - Weapon Focus (Dagger)
Feat Level 5 - Improved Initiative

[calagnar]

Stats::: Str 11, Dex 19, Con 16, Int 15, Wis 14, Cha 13
Did you roll for stats are use point buy?

Apache Indian Scout: Ranger7 Rogue13
Ranger:
Class Skills: Handle Animal, Heal, Survival.
Class Abiltiys: Track, Wild empathy, Endurance, Favored terrain, Hunter’s bond: Animal Companion:Dog(Indians used dogs long befor horses as pack animals and protection.), Woodland Stride
Combat Style: Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Rogue:
Class Skills: Acrobatics, Climb, Disable Device(You will want this but not sure how to use it with Apache Indian Scout), Linguistics(for talking to members of other tribes and nations.), Perception, Stealth,
Class Abilitys: Trapfinding, Evasion, Uncanny dodge, Improved uncanny dodge, Advanced talents, Trap sense +4, Sneak attack +7d6
Rogue Talents: Combat Trick, Fast Stealth, Surprise Attack, Weapon Training, Improved Evasion(A), Opportunist(A)

Weapons: DaggersX2 or Hand AxeX2 (Tomahawk) , Long Bow

[Rasengan2theface]

calagnar wrote:

Stats::: Str 11, Dex 19, Con 16, Int 15, Wis 14, Cha 13

Did you roll for stats are use point buy?

Apache Indian Scout: Ranger7 Rogue13
Ranger:
Class Skills: Handle Animal, Heal, Survival.
Class Abiltiys: Track, Wild empathy, Endurance, Favored terrain, Hunter’s bond: Animal Companion:Dog(Indians used dogs long before horses as pack animals and protection.), Woodland Stride
Combat Style: Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Rogue:
Class Skills: Acrobatics, Climb, Disable Device(You will want this but not sure how to use it with Apache Indian Scout), Linguistics(for talking to members of other tribes and nations.), Perception, Stealth,
Class Abilitys: Trapfinding, Evasion, Uncanny dodge, Improved uncanny dodge, Advanced talents, Trap sense +4, Sneak attack +7d6
Rogue Talents: Combat Trick, Fast Stealth, Surprise Attack, Weapon Training, Improved Evasion(A), Opportunist(A)

Weapons: DaggersX2 or Hand AxeX2 (Tomahawk) , Long Bow

Stats were rolled, so I just did well, the 19 was actually a 17, so the spread was actually 17, 16, 15, 14, 13, 11

I think I may be in love with the thought of Rogue/Ranger, but I may need to vary them a bit more, partly because I committed to playing a rogue before I considered the build. But I do like the fact that I get a lot of proficiencies for free basically.

Sticking with Rogue13/Ranger7, I think...

Rogue2/Ranger2/Rogue11/Ranger5

I'm not terribly concerned about Hunter's Bond, frankly, if I wanted an animal companion, I'd take levels in druid

Lord Zeb, I think you're probably right and that I'd be ok pushing that back a few levels.

Maxximilius, I actually agree completely, but the DM is pretty set on Core Only because he "doesn't like what the APG did to the game" in terms of feats and the like. I made the argument that the party fighter is going to get bored REALLY quick, but he won't budge.

[Maxximilius]

Rasengan2theface wrote:

Maxximilius, I actually agree completely, but the DM is pretty set on Core Only because he "doesn't like what the APG did to the game" in terms of feats and the like.

...

"Gosh, APG threw even more balance, choice and versatilty in my game, allowing for players to feel like their class can actually do something special and associate fluff with crunch without sucking ! ... let's ban it."

[calagnar]

I recomend this for your ability scores
Str 17+2=19 Dex 15 Con 16 Int 14 Wis 13 Cha 11
+1 Str 4, 8, 12, 16, & 20.
Dex base is somthing I don't recomend. I have played way to meny high level games. The amount of HP monsters have gets to the point. Where you just can't do enough damage to take them down. It's the same levels where your bonus damage is higher then the dice rolled thats around level 8 or so. It is not so bad if you have a flanker and get sneak attack. I don't plan builds around that fact. As past exp. is the terrain dose not let you flank all the time.

Level progresion:
Rogue 1 Ranger 1. Untill you hit level 7 Ranger
Rogue 14+
Evasion: Is a big power to have, but area of effect spells you wont see much of untill you pass level 4. So it's not bad to delay geting it. But will help to get the all martal weapons sooner.

Animal Companion was sticking more to the flavor of the character.
Hunter's Bond: Group will be better crunch.

Daggers are better crunch. Tomahawk is more fluff, but is still a good weapon. Long Bow is a given.

Feat Progression:
H: Two Weapon Fighting
1: Fleet (+5ft base move)
3: Step Up
4: Combat Style: Double Slice
5: Fleet (+10ft base move)
7: Combat Expertise
9: Improved Critical
11: Improved Trip
12: Combat Style: Improved Two Weapon Fighting (Dose not need the 17 Dex)
13: Greater Trip
15: Fleet (+15ft base move)
18: Fleet (+20ft base move)

[Breakfast]

I seem to recall seeing somewhere that weapon focus is one of the higher damage feats for a twf rogue on a full attack.

The value of improved critical seems questionable imo if you are going to build low strength high dex unless you are getting critical feats and need the prereq.

[tachus]

Ok... So I had a nice long post with better details but my window froze on me when I went to preview it... So this one might be more rough...

I've been a long time rogue player, so take this as just my personal experience.

Long and short:
Imp Crit isn't worth it. As a TWF type, you'd be better of with Weapon Focus. Or even take the Weapon Training rogue talent at that. the vast majority of your dmg will be SA dice. So you'd be better of with the +1 attack from Focus since it halves the TWF penalty, so you can get that SA dice. after all daggers are only 19-20/x2 and 1d4 dmg. so is the extra 10% chance of an extra 1d4+str really worth it?

Bleeding Attack isn't worth it imo. Here's why:

SRD wrote:

Bleed effects do not stack with each other unless they deal different kinds of damage.

So sure you might have a 4d6 SA that gives 4 bleed dmg a round. But it will only give 4 bleed. The main mistake I see people make here is that they assume it means 4 bleed dmg PER ATTACK. Which that line clearly says is not the case.

IMO you would be better off with Resilency, as things tend to target the character that hurt it the most first, or Slow Reactions, so that once you do SA a creature from the shadows, your party will be able to move without AoO on them to give the best positioning, allowing them to hopefully give you flanking for your next turn.

[calagnar]

Or you can take both.
Feat Progression:
H: Two Weapon Fighting
1: Fleet (+5ft base move)
3: Step Up
3: Rogue Talent: Weapon Traning: Dagger/Hand Axe
4: Combat Style: Double Slice
5: Fleet (+10ft base move)
5: Rogue Talent: Fast Stealth
7: Combat Expertise
7: Rogue Talent: Surprise Attack
9: Improved Critical
11: Improved Trip
11: Rogue Talent: Combat Trick: Improved Initiative
12: Combat Style: Improved Two Weapon Fighting (Dose not need the 17 Dex)
13: Greater Trip
15: Fleet (+15ft base move)
15: Rogue Talent: Powerful Sneak
17: Fleet (+20ft base move)
17: Rogue Talent: Deadly Sneak
19: Acrobatic Steap
19: Rogue Talent: Improved Evasion

[tachus]

@calagnar: just fyi, original poster said core book only and you have a few APG stuff there at higher levels. Also I don't see your reasoning behind taking the Fleet feat four times. There are better feats to take imo, just grab a pair of Boots of Striding and Springing.

@Rasengan2theface: My DM currently has my character sheet and we aren't playing again until this Monday. If you would like I can post how mine is built at that point. He is more of a 'sneak-thief' originally though so may not completely fit your concept. But he is by far the highest dmg output in our group at level 12, seeing the DM usually just asks how many SA dice I would be rolling, and then just says that it died before I even get the chance to roll.

EDIT: We're playing mostly core rules, using APG Hero Point system and case-by-case APG approvals. But pretty sure we have all stuck to just using the core book for abilities.

[calagnar]

calagnar wrote:

Or you can take both.

Feat Progression:
H: Two Weapon Fighting
1: Fleet (+5ft base move)
3: Step Up
3: Rogue Talent: Weapon Traning: Dagger/Hand Axe
4: Combat Style: Double Slice
5: Fleet (+10ft base move)
5: Rogue Talent: Fast Stealth
7: Combat Expertise
7: Rogue Talent: Surprise Attack
9: Improved Critical
11: Improved Trip
11: Rogue Talent: Combat Trick: Improved Initiative
12: Combat Style: Improved Two Weapon Fighting (Dose not need the 17 Dex)
13: Greater Trip
15: Fleet (+15ft base move)
15: Rogue Talent: Powerful Sneak
17: Fleet (+20ft base move)
17: Rogue Talent: Deadly Sneak
19: Acrobatic Steap
19: Rogue Talent: Improved Evasion

Yep missed that when I added the Rogue talents. Replace Powerful Sneak, and Deadly Sneak.

What feats are better?
Fleet stacks with it self so +20ft move total base move 50ft, boots of striding and spring 60ft, hasted 80ft.

[tachus]

Sorry this took a bit... and we actually played 'We be Goblins' this week so I didn't get a chance to check my rogue's build again...

Based on the character concept I would think Quick Draw would be a good option, given being a TWF and having thrown weapons as your primary ranged attack (tomahawks).

In my mind, even Dodge is a nice feat to have. As I've said before, D&D/PF have no real 'method' of a 'tank taunt' as many MMOs are used to. So more often then not, the BBEG will target whoever just hurt him the most. Often times this is the rogue who just got a SA off, and as a TWF rogue that means you have the potential to get as many as 6 different SA dmg rolls off on the person, which places you in the 'most damage' category. So having even that extra bit of AC is a nice hopeful in keeping you alive.

[calagnar]

The first two attacks with each hand. Are the ones with the best chances of hiting. After that the attack penelity is to high. So for the most part taking greater two weapon fighting is a wast. At a -10 to hit the chances of a rogue geting the attack to land is low.