I'm looking into running a Star Wars game via the PF rules. From what I understand, Star Wars d20 is wholly unbalanced and Saga Edition has almost as much extra splat as 4e. PF is a system I like and I am familiar with, so I would much rather make a few house rules/mods to its system than I would pick up a whole new one that I might not even enjoy.
That being said, I'm not looking for a total re-write of the system, or a bunch of new classes or anything. I can fluff most existing content to fit my needs. Swords can be fluffed to be vibroblades or lightsabers, repeating crossbows are blasters/bowcasters, the Fly skill allows you to pilot, etc.
However, I do run into a problem. How do I integrate "the force?" Do I use existing spellcasting systems? If I do, how do I account for things like Fireball and other spells that don't match up with force powers? Do I just fluff them into existence? Or do I ban them outright? Or do I use a new system altogether?
If I do have to use a new system, I'd like it to be one I can easily template onto the existing PF system without having to mod too much.
I'd love the input of the community on this one.
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
Saga is actually a really good system.
You also run into armor/AC issues, as Jedi don't wear any.
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Saga is actually a really good system.
You also run into armor/AC issues, as Jedi don't wear any.
Jedi are pretty much Monks (especially so considering the amount of acrobatics they do in the prequels). Maybe up their ki pool a bit and let it do stuff like mage hand at first, and at higher levels, telekinesis and suggestion. I would probably replace their improved unarmed damage with the use of a lightsaber weapon.
I think you'll run into a few problems doing this. What is it that you dislike about saga? I could probably give you some better suggestions if I had a better idea of what you were trying to avoid. For now, here's a list of things you might want to consider changing somehow:
Blasters will hit the crossbow problem; they don't add a score to damage, but scores gradually go up, so if they're fair at the start they'll be weak once you get to high levels. This isn't so much of a problem in PF, because crossbows are pretty bad anyway, which leads people who really depend on ranged attacks to use other weapons.
Armour is mostly a no-no. It needs to be in the game, but it should probably be optional at most for nearly everyone. Star Wars pretty much goes from nothing to full plate with very little between.
Pathfinder is balanced on the assumption that there will be magical healing. Your game will be almost nothing like the movies if that's easy to come by, so you'll probably want to replace it or make it unnecessary.
Magic items really don't fit, but if you just remove them the monsters will crush your players. There are a lot of threads in this forum about how to reduce or remove them.
Force powers seem to work nothing like spellcasting, but there's not really anything that's much closer in PF. You'd need to create a system of some kind for them.
It would be really sad if you couldn't play droids. I'm not sure if warforged would really cut it.
Unless you make most of the melee classes jedi somehow, you'll be seeing a LOT of sword users. If you're planning a Knights of The Old Republic game, that's not a problem, but otherwise, it will seem very strange.
Barbarians would all fall to the dark side.
You're going to need some kind of ship combat system.
However, I do run into a problem. How do I integrate "the force?" Do I use existing spellcasting systems? If I do, how do I account for things like Fireball and other spells that don't match up with force powers? Do I just fluff them into existence? Or do I ban them outright? Or do I use a new system altogether?
-Chris
The Star Wars Revised Core Rulebook uses Force Skills. I love that system as a concept, but I can't say I have used it or seen it used, so my experience is only theoretical at best.
Basically, you have three groups or types of force power, and there are feats corresponding to each list (Alter, Control, and Sense); there are a few non-typed powers that only require the force sensitive feat. You take a feat, you get access to that force skill list. For instance, Force Grip is an Alter power that is an attack action. Force Grip always deals 3d6 damage, but your skill check determines the DC to resist it. <9 = a Will DC10, 10-19 = DC15, and a 20+ = 20. I'm sure you could scale that higher relatively easily.
Hope that helps. If you use it, let us know how it worked out! :D
I'm looking into running a Star Wars game via the PF rules.
-Chris
Saga Edition is pretty good, but has some scaling issues (at low level Force powers are game changers, but grow weaker as you level). The skill system is marvelously simple to track, but bland. And heroes pretty much never drop on the condition track unless facing a BBEG (or a squad of unrealistically tough and clever killers). The splat problem is real, but at least you know they won't add to it. I think it would be easy to avoid by just sticking to Core plus maybe a couple sourcebooks (like Jedi Training Manual, Threats of the Galaxy, and Starships of the Galaxy). The fact that these all come at a dear price makes it easy to enforce.
Having said that, I will now address your real question. One of the biggest problems I have with the SW d20 games is that the classes are bland, and have no intrinsic "power" as we know it in PF/3.x. I have often thought about doing what you are attempting. My suggestions:
(WARNING: no playtesting at all, just experience in all the d20 SW editions)
The force is definitely the biggest hurdle to a conversion. I would set up a group of feats (Sense, Control, and Alter) to gain full access to the force. And a selection of "force powers" to train in. I would set the saves at 10 + 1/2 level + Cha.
I would also implement some sort of defense bonus AC rule and use armor as DR (and blow through it with blasters and light sabers). One standard of the various d20 SW games is "normal weapons" (long sword, bow) do single dice (d8), "powered weapons" (vibro blade, firearms) do double dice (2d8), and "plasma weapons" (blaster, sabers) do triple dice (3d8). This has a tendency to keep things feeling lethal, and if you combine it with even generous armor DR, you would model swords bouncing of Stormtroopers while blasters put holes in them.[grin]
You also might consider addressing the lack of damage scaling by giving dex bonus to damage with ranged weapons. Saga has a cool rule where everyone gets to add half their character level to damage, but they also do away with iterative attacks (not a terrible idea).
I suggest picking up a copy of Star Wars (d6) Second Edition, Star Wars D20 (original or revised), and/or the Saga Edition core rulebook for inspirations.
Cheers
Infinite Futures, by Avalon Games, is also an option. Especially once the revision/rewrite is finished, but that's slated for "later this year." I'd suggest considering using Dreamscarred's Psionics Unleashed for the Force, at least as a starting point.
As for the Force, make force powers to be at-will powers that require special class feats (the jedi class), organized in feat chains (a chain for suggestions, one for controling ones own metabolism, passive chains for immidiate foresight that lets you deflect blaster shots...) that have levels for prequisites. Pretty much as KotoR does, just without "magic points" to expend (I mean, nothing in Star Wars suggests that they run out of energy, they just need extreme concentration for some feats like lifting a x-wing)
For more aggresive powers like telekinetic pushes (on enemies themself or on objects) or even mind powers, just target the saves
As for jedis, think hard about allowing PCs to be them... especially if only some of the chars get to be jedis. You can scale them down (I mean, in Star Wars jedis beat every non-jedi (/non-sith) opponent in a 1:1 fight... pretty much sucks if a fighter PC without the force wants to compete, yeah I know, there are some fighters like imperial elite guards that can kill jedi but on the average, the jedi is still stronger)
As for blasters and the crossbow problem, just start to give them damage boni by one ability (if you want to go somewhat far, think about changing the abilities - since perception is that vital in d20, you could make it an ability instead of a skill and well, perception would be a nice ability to base range damage on it)
Other idea: introduce a class that revolves around controlling droids, giving the char some single minded droid companions that work a little bit like animal companions (it'll be even more fun if the PC himself is a sentient droid)
Armour is mostly a no-no. It needs to be in the game, but it should probably be optional at most for nearly everyone. Star Wars pretty much goes from nothing to full plate with very little between.
The armors presented in KotoR work just fine
I just use the Pathfinder rules Psionics for a Star Wars game :) Psions, Soulknives, and Psiwarriors. Use Dreamscarred Press PDF for the Pathfinder Rules of the old 3.5 Psionics Handbook.
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I am actually considering 'Pathfinder-izing' SW Saga myself. There's a whole lot of good work there that I would like to see PF move towards such as the axing of iterative attacks, grab rules instead of grapple/pin (trained-only), feat design, minions, etc. The three defenses enabling three different modes of attacking a character's HP I found to be quite inspiring (Will = Morale Damage, given by a demoralizing monologue from a villain, for example).
I wouldn't mind trying porting in a little Saga into PF either though. Has anyone considered doing a Words of Power mod for Force Powers? That should provide the flexibility that I think most would like to see in force use as well as a focus in general areas (words of power) that can be combined in different ways.