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I'm running a Kingmaker campaign and have been asked a question I'm uncertain of how to answer.
How would one institute a spy network? What would it cost? Would there be different costs depending on how good it is and how secret it is? I'm sure there is more, but I'm tired and its late.
Thanks,
I would use leadership, or an approximation of leadership. The Followers are then going out and Either doing their own Gather information and returning to you with news or providing a giant Aid another to gather information to finding out what is needed.
You Really dont have to actually use leadership but it works as a good way to gauge how many people you have and whatnot. This is probably a bit simple But seems fairly easy because of that.
Couldnt tel you costs. Though Normal non adventurers dont have extravigant wages.
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look at it this way, in the Feist books, the mockers used the beggars as a spy network.
in any campaign, the beggars could be used as a beggar as an infomation source...
all it would cost is a few coppers per beggar
nobody ever suspects the beggars.
and there is a party at mothers
The only real problem with that, is it only helps you to know what happens in the street. Few beggars get invited to social gatherings or embassy balls. Now servants, on the other hand...
like the spymaster idea. Is there a mechanic for size of thieves guild anyone knows of? Perhaps from different game? Like the leadership idea also.
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I would use leadership, or an approximation of leadership. The Followers are then going out and Either doing their own Gather information and returning to you with news or providing a giant Aid another to gather information to finding out what is needed.
You Really dont have to actually use leadership but it works as a good way to gauge how many people you have and whatnot. This is probably a bit simple But seems fairly easy because of that.
Couldnt tel you costs. Though Normal non adventurers dont have extravigant wages.
My thoughts on this from a GM perspective: this works fine if the PC *IS* the Spymaster, but it would be much better if he hires the spymaster. The spymaster NPC is then the one with the leadership feat, doles out to the PC *ONLY* the information that he wants to, and keeps the rest to consolidate his own power base. This doesn't mean he's working against the PC's per se, but does turn it from a player "get past GM free" card and turns it more into a tool for the GM
My one-eyed Half-orc Bard (this alias) is our ruler in KM. I took Leadership specifically for this reason. My Cohort is a Wizard (Diviner) and serves as our Spymaster, my followers are all Bards and Rogues who are 'The Eyes of Odegar'. Our GM has been able to work them into the story and the 'event phase', we have managed to uncover a plot or two already and I've only had them in place for a short time. (We're level 8 currently.)
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Thanks everyone for your suggestions. A topic that may need a little more mechanics probably.
But as I stated earlier, this is for my Kingmaker campaign. The player that wants to do this is the Spymaster. However, he didn't want to have to take the feat. The Kingdom's Assassin did take the leadership feat and hired on a Bard as a cohort. Since I already have a party of 6 PC's, I'm thinking I'll have the Assassin's cohort stay behind and run the spy network. That would take him out of the fighting and take care of the spy network.
Thanks again.
Feel free to continue discussing if you have any additional thoughts or ideas. I'm always open to more.
It depends on how far you want to go with your spy network.
A comprehensive spy network is essentially the same thing as a fifth column, or a deep conspiracy network. Done properly these are implemented as a series of "cells" with each cell having as little contact as possible with other cells to avoid the possibility that any captured or turned member can give away enough of the other members to cripple or destroy the network. Setting one up and administering it is hard and costly work and involves a large number of drop points and secret signals. Such a system would rarely, if ever, employ actual beggars or anyone else who could "sell out" the conspiracy for cash. This implies a character with strong leadership, charisma and intelligence.
Paid informants are a different thing altogether, but can be useful as temporary spies. Frequently those sorts of resources are given deliberately false information that is tracked so that if they attempt to turn on the conspirators, the information they reveal actually only reveals their betrayal.
A classic cell network can be made up of cells each of which contain three members, one of whom is the leader and knows how to contact (but does not know the identity of) a member of another cell from whom he receives and/or delivers orders.
Done correctly it is very hard to crack a well designed fifth column conspiracy built around cells like this. This is one reason that it has been so hard to fight terrorism. Many terrorists adopt strategies similar to this. That's why when they find a laptop with actual names of members, it's such a huge deal.
I would use leadership, or an approximation of leadership. The Followers are then going out and Either doing their own Gather information and returning to you with news or providing a giant Aid another to gather information to finding out what is needed.
no no no no. absolutely not. leadership gives you NPCs who are sometimes just barely competent in what they do, and the average expert is not going to be 007.
you want a spy network, you talk to your GM, and you go around making friends with other highish level NPCs who have access to information, and you keep your lines of communication open.
our spymaster in our kingmaker campaign, before he dropped out, had his spy network of expert 1s to 3s trying to spy on level 12+ dudes in other countries. heck, he even sent a few expert 1s to qadira to check out my cleric's origins. it just doesn't work like that. what information a expert 1 is going to bring back, at best, is going to be what everyone in the area knows, and that is most likely controlled by the source.
my cleric, on the other hand, traveled to several different countries, made friends of the people who were involved in politics, and whenever something bad was going down, she would rattle off sendings like no tomorrow. Hey, I hear this here, what are you hearing there?
If that don't work, scry. Scry scry scry scry scry. Make friends with a cleric. They can even commune with their gods, if it is important enough.
Each of the Kingmaker posts is going to have an assumed set of flunkies and such. The General/Warden/Marshall are all in charge of *somebody*, even if you don't yet have full-scale armies.
Similarly, the very existence of a Spymaster implies a network of spies right out of the gate. The kingdom rulership system abstracts this nicely, there really isn't much need for an explicit set of spies.
There is nothing stopping you as a GM from giving names to some of the people who make up the spymaster's network and integrating them into kingdom events, and if the spymaster wishes to use RP to get specific results, that's all to the good.
It depends on how far you want to go with your spy network.
A comprehensive spy network is essentially the same thing as a fifth column, or a deep conspiracy network. Done properly these are implemented as a series of "cells" with each cell having as little contact as possible with other cells to avoid the possibility that any captured or turned member can give away enough of the other members to cripple or destroy the network. Setting one up and administering it is hard and costly work and involves a large number of drop points and secret signals. Such a system would rarely, if ever, employ actual beggars or anyone else who could "sell out" the conspiracy for cash. This implies a character with strong leadership, charisma and intelligence.
Paid informants are a different thing altogether, but can be useful as temporary spies. Frequently those sorts of resources are given deliberately false information that is tracked so that if they attempt to turn on the conspirators, the information they reveal actually only reveals their betrayal.
A classic cell network can be made up of cells each of which contain three members, one of whom is the leader and knows how to contact (but does not know the identity of) a member of another cell from whom he receives and/or delivers orders.
Done correctly it is very hard to crack a well designed fifth column conspiracy built around cells like this. This is one reason that it has been so hard to fight terrorism. Many terrorists adopt strategies similar to this. That's why when they find a laptop with actual names of members, it's such a huge deal.
This is good stuff, and I echo my simian friend's advice. It really depends on how detailed you and your player want to get. I would really recommend going with it and letting him be creative, As a GM the existence of the spy network gives you an excellent tool to reveal plot threads and bump the party subtly in specific directions. And I wouldn't hesitate to reward him with really useful info from time to time if he takes the effort to develop a good spy network.
To get him started, here are some ideas.
-- He should decide who he wants to target and what kind of info he wants to collect, and that will determine to some extent who he needs to recruit. Different skill sets/types of character needed to track internal dissent vs. penetrate foreign governments.
-- The cells idea is a very good one, particularly if targetting folks who will be upset to be spied upon. Need plausible deniability.
-- Most informants are paid, but there are a variety of different ways to pay them. Some lower level guys are paid onyl when they produce something useful. More valuable assets are paid a retainer and given bonuses for useful info. Obviously the more dangerous it is to acquire the info and the more important/sensitive the info is, the more you have to pay. So how much you spend can vary wildly. Best to start small and work up to major assets slowly.
-- To handle the informant, you need some highly trained and professional agents, capable of using considerable initiative and trusted to act independently and withlarge amopunts of cash. Note that only in rare occasions would you risk these folks by sneding them in to danger to acquire the info themselves. They are too valuabkle and know to much to risk losing them unless it is really important.
-- You can also use some go-betweens to pass messages, acquire necessary supplies, provide safehouses, etc. These folks are specialized, and should know nothing more than required to do their jobs.
-- Procedures for passing information (like dead drops), what to do when cover is blown or you think you are being followed, eliminating threats to the network, etc. need to be developed.
-- He'll need to think about whether he wants to confine his spy network to simple information gathering, or expand to other areas like sabotage, assassinations, etc. This stuff is all much higher risk, but in the right situation could be very useful. People to engage in that type of thing, of course, would be even more highly skilled and likely expensive.
Have fun with it.
Each of the Kingmaker posts is going to have an assumed set of flunkies and such. The General/Warden/Marshall are all in charge of *somebody*, even if you don't yet have full-scale armies.
Similarly, the very existence of a Spymaster implies a network of spies right out of the gate. The kingdom rulership system abstracts this nicely, there really isn't much need for an explicit set of spies.
There is nothing stopping you as a GM from giving names to some of the people who make up the spymaster's network and integrating them into kingdom events, and if the spymaster wishes to use RP to get specific results, that's all to the good.
Agreed. It is important to keep in mind the level of abstraction involved.
One thing that would fit in with the level of abstraction is additional buildings, though, something along the lines of:
Spy HQ: +1 Lore, +1 Defense in that city
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There was a Thieve's Guild building as an alternate building on a list of other ideas that was posted early on in this campaign's existance.
That aside, you could have a network of spies in one of two ways:
1, have it mandated month to month how much you spend BP to provide a bonus to the kingdom - much like Festivals and Promotions do. It costs money to run effectively - hence the cost in BP. As a trade-off you can have a bonus to Stability (more than likely), Loyalty possibly, or both. And/Or even a bonus to certain events (like getting advanced notice to certain politically charaged events - such as Assassination Attempt) And/Or to Gather Info, or Knowledge checks done.
2, have the network a bit like the Army system w/ cost (this would be the more complex route). As such it can still provide kingdom bonuses, and/or even bonuses to Army-based combat - spies can provide all sorts of valuable intel that may assist in such a conflict.
In either case, any time that they are used there should be some sort of Stability Roll (perhaps using the Spymasters Stealth skill ranks or Bluff Skill Ranks as a bonus) to determine if something goes awry and a spy (Or spies) are captured/killed, resulting in loss of the BP you intended to spend w/ no return in benefit, and causing 1 Unrest the following turn - as no doubt some blame will reach some ears that your kingdom was the employer of the captured spy.
Finally using your spy ring to root out another's infiltrating spy is another valuable action.
Whether you do this as the kingdom choosing to spend money to "sweep and root out any possible spies" whenever they feel like trying (the more paranoid will do this more often)
Or just have them make some sort of check whenever as DM you decide a spy is somewhere in the kingdom (either by some Event roll, adventure path encounter description (such as some notorious loudmouth rabble-rouser), or by some creative liberties taken on the part of DM. Having the spy network work on mechanics such as the army does works well in this case, because you're basically then able to use the army war rules to govern whether one spy network vanquishes another - just as the rules work to determine army mass-combat.
Robert
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In my KM campaign, we originally filled the role of Spy Master with an NPC. (I was hand-waving much of the initial set-up) He served well enough until meeting an untimely demise while serving undercover in Restov.
Enter player six...
Now our Spy Master is a freakish spider loving witch who has been given the job out of Kingdom necessity. Cormyr inherited the foundation network that the original SM was creating. This transition allowed me to do a bit of hand holding for the player, until he had a good grasp on what was going to be required. We have role played the entire spy network story line from the very beginning, rather than apply mechanics or DC's. It was a better fit for my group of players.
In every city (or city grid), he has a 'Mouth' in place who reports to him the findings of his 'Ears'. There are at least two bird messenger systems in place, with different species of bird flying unique patterns.
He has agents in the clergy, who report the activities of the priesthood and the congregation.
Special attention (and extra helpings of bribe money) has been given to the merchants who travel the long hauls. These traders generally have the most current information and are now meeting and collecting reports along the path to the Capital City of Ceros.
Now that the network is largely established, I apply a 1 BP per grid cost to maintain the network, pay the operatives and supply bribe and information purchasing cash to the correct hands.
Cheers!
My group's PCs met this strange faerie, like a male dryad but cursed to be bound to a wooden statue rather than a living tree. They eventually decided the best solution to this was to kill and Reincarnate him, with his consent.
They now have a person who habitually looks like a hobgoblin (the King is a hobgoblin) but appears able to look like anything he pleases; who is so likable and pleasant that people often tell him things they should have kept secret; and who can, with a touch, give you huge bonuses on one endeavor at the cost of making everything else seem completely unimportant. (The PCs seldom permit this, but they used it to win one of the Rushlight contests.)
So, what to do with this strange and somewhat disturbing person? They made him the Spymaster....
As a result, the player is not particularly aware of the structure of the spy network, except in Restov where he early on sent a PC (relegating him, alas, to NPC status). It is lucky for the PCs that their Spymaster is not actually working for the BBG: that would be bad. But even so, I think they are taking a big risk in trusting him so much.
We added a fourth stat, which we call "Responsiveness", to the Stability/Loyalty/Economy trio. Every month at the Council meeting there's a Spymaster report on upcoming threats, and the accuracy and look-ahead of this report depends on the Responsiveness roll. The PCs have put a lot of investment into Responsiveness, so they hear about many things far in advance and can prepare. I've really liked how this works. (Warning: you have to redo all the buildings, so it's a lot of work. It would be easier just to have the Spymaster reports and use some kind of skill roll for them, if you like the basic idea but don't want to do massive rewrites.)
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There was a Thieve's Guild building as an alternate building on a list of other ideas that was posted early on in this campaign's existance.
That aside, you could have a network of spies in one of two ways:
1, have it mandated month to month how much you spend BP to provide a bonus to the kingdom - much like Festivals and Promotions do. It costs money to run effectively - hence the cost in BP. As a trade-off you can have a bonus to Stability (more than likely), Loyalty possibly, or both. And/Or even a bonus to certain events (like getting advanced notice to certain politically charaged events - such as Assassination Attempt) And/Or to Gather Info, or Knowledge checks done.
2, have the network a bit like the Army system w/ cost (this would be the more complex route). As such it can still provide kingdom bonuses, and/or even bonuses to Army-based combat - spies can provide all sorts of valuable intel that may assist in such a conflict.
In either case, any time that they are used there should be some sort of Stability Roll (perhaps using the Spymasters Stealth skill ranks or Bluff Skill Ranks as a bonus) to determine if something goes awry and a spy (Or spies) are captured/killed, resulting in loss of the BP you intended to spend w/ no return in benefit, and causing 1 Unrest the following turn - as no doubt some blame will reach some ears that your kingdom was the employer of the captured spy.
Finally using your spy ring to root out another's infiltrating spy is another valuable action.
Whether you do this as the kingdom choosing to spend money to "sweep and root out any possible spies" whenever they feel like trying (the more paranoid will do this more often)
Or just have them make some sort of check whenever as DM you decide a spy is somewhere in the kingdom (either by some Event roll, adventure path encounter description (such as some notorious loudmouth rabble-rouser), or by some creative liberties taken on the part of DM. Having the spy network work on mechanics such as the...
How much money are they spending on their spy network. I'm very curious because I'm sure the rogue in the party will be in charge of it and I want to tell him what the cost of set up and maintenance would be.