I'm afraid I must say that I, for one, do not wish to see all this minutiae and all of these "racial widgetry" rules. I feel they tread dangerously close to the "Subrace For Every Day Of The Week" trope, and are unnecessary. I think such rules are best left to the GM as befits his or her game world, and should not be codified by the game publisher (Paizo), lest it be seen as an endorsement of such things.
To use Black XIII's example that a "desert elf is different than a mountain elf or a wood elf," no, they're not. Not any more than a desert human is different from a mountain or wood human. This concept that environment leads to racial branching is simply incorrect and rooted in a desire to codify and classify every single phenotype of a species as a separate offshoot of that species - a rather outdated holdover from the early days of genetics, now understood to be completely incorrect and irrelevant, yet still ridiculously present. I'll spare you all the long-winded explanation of how this is all really unnecessary and sum it up:
Non-Human "Racial Variations" based on environment should involve culture, skills, and language - just like every other variation seen for Humans - and are unnecessary beyond that point.
There is no reason under the sun to create a racial archetype or variant for every environment in a game world. Environments do not create completely separate branches of a species (the one exception I can see for this is aquatic races, and even then, only after dealing with powerful magics or gods or artifacts that sink entire nations beneath the sea). A Mountain Elf should only differ from a Desert Elf in the realm of his or her available starting skill selection (Survival: Mountain instead of Survival: Desert), cultural norms (Water is a less valuable commodity), and outward appearance (clothing and skin color). That's it.
All of these things are best left in the realm of the GM. There is no reasonable need that I can see to codify every race under the sun out based on their terrain type.
Just my two cents, mind. You're free to disagree with me, but I maintain that in a book that could contain some really awesome and powerful game-changers, giving us a laundry list of racial widgetry is simply unnecessary. Let GM's tackle that. That's part of their job.
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Truthfully I wouldn't mind seeing a variant of Kobolds and Goblins that wouldn't necessarily be SUICIDE for a player character to pick.
I've noticed an assumption that any size Small humanoid is automatically going to have a -2 to Str, *in addition to* 3/4ths carrying capacity *and* smaller weapon die sizes. I wouldn't mind seeing one that is stronger than it looks...
Also an aquatic based race that isn't necessarily DEAD the minute the GM takes them away from the ocean. There is a lot of awesome flavor potential for sea based games, but most of the rules/monsters and such demand that they REMAIN sea based games or else.
As a huge fan of '1/2 Aquatic Elves' back in the day, heck yeah.
...Templates
A:Acquired templates with a LA value of 0 - so a PC can acquire it midsession without it being gamebreaking. Especially for lycanthropes/vampires.
B: Template Classes for more powerful templates, done in the same style as the racial levels, mentioned above.Creature Sizes
Please god give us Large sized player races. (and tiny and huge would be awesome too...)
Adjust the damage progression chart to not be broken at the top end, and they'll be reasonable. Then the only serious boon is the increased reach....
If you're changing the creature size of something standard (say a medium minotaur for example), I'd rather them not be in the book, and do it myself.
Specific Creature Type Requests
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Half-Succubus
The Forgotten wrote:Half succubus. Maybe not my thing but I can think of a number of female players over the years who were basically looking to play a half succubus cleric of lust.
The Alu-Field (Planescape). This should be a racial template of some kind (some mods that dont make the race more powerful at character creation, plus a racial class), but I'd love to see it.
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I agree with you template ideas
I also agree with your idea of large PC races, But I also think the size category system would need a complete rewrite from its current form as the math and methods used to make it work have cracks in it.
The half-succubus as a lower PC race with racial class levels sounds like a reasonable idea.
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1.) I really want a playable and balanced pixie/tiny-flying-fey race. I know flight and being that small are frequently too strong for normal PCs (especially with low CRs). But having a large enough wingspan to qualify for small might help.
2.) Having a "Sealed" sub-template might help those of us who like playing characters that are half-dragons or half-outsiders who just don't want all that power. Most people just homebrew this...or use something like Mark of Justice or Bestow Curse in their backstories.
I'd really love to see racial traits for an aasimar representing their celestial traits (such as an "unusually intense stare or a trumpeting/musical voice or perhaps even an ability to see through deception). ^_^
I'd like to see a 'warforged', living construct, subrace of inevitables, or something along those lines.
Maybe they could come from that 'crashed spaceship' area, or be from planes of law, or set loose by the wizard who created them, and they just learned how to reproduce?
I'd also like to see some 'technology' to go with them, like upgrades, or equipment they can attach, like a crossbow or (gun)
I'd like to see a 'warforged', living construct, subrace of inevitables, or something along those lines.
Maybe they could come from that 'crashed spaceship' area, or be from planes of law, or set loose by the wizard who created them, and they just learned how to reproduce?
I'd also like to see some 'technology' to go with them, like upgrades, or equipment they can attach, like a crossbow or (gun)
I'm hoping to see the Gearsmen of the Silver Mount make an appearance, too. :D
As long as the race creation option i have heard will be in this book is well thought out i will be happy, i just dont want to see a system that leaves things up to inturpretation by both players and GM's on how balanced it is. i want the system to lay everything out so there is no confusion or arguments over power.
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I'm hoping the race creation rules are robust enough to allow for races that step outside the standard two-arms, two-legs, one head bipedal model, while keeping things roughly in balance.
If you can pull off a Hanar as the absolute limit of such a system, that's plenty of range to work with.*
*Because every campaign could be made better with Captain Blasto.
(Disclaimer: I have only read the first post. Therefore, if someone has already posted suggestions similar to mine, I have not have read them.)
*** A well-balanced toolkit which can be used to build a race or give alternatives to pre-existing ones.
Example 1: making alternative versions of Tieflings and Aasimar which are still balanced. I hate the Fiendish Sorcery work-around for the Tiefling's Charisma penalty. I also hate the fact that Tieflings get a stat penalty while Aasimar do not.
Example 2: the same goes for Oreads and similar races. I need racial alternatives to Elemental Affinity for those characters who are not Sorcerers.
*** APG-style alternatives for other "PC-able" races.
*** A race which can be a reasonable substitute for 3.5's Goliath. As it stands, I'm not sold on the Oread (partly because of the wasted Elemental Affinity racial ability).
What I'd like to see:
- sub-races for the major races. Why do every bunch of races everywhere - including deep mystics famous as sorcerers and oracles - need to have a charisma penalty? Why would sylvan elves that never built anything bigger than a hut and spend their entire life toughing it out in the deep woods have a bonus to intelligence and penalty to constitution?
- racial class archetypes and more substitutions like those in the APG. Race-based prestige classes would be nice, but not necessary. However, racial archetypes for PrCs might be interesting - perhaps a halfling variant of the duelist or drow shadowdancer?
- more support for playing powerful races (those with LA in 3.5); either as racial paragon levels or via other options. I actually thought the XP penalty (say 10%) they got in 2nd edition wasn't that bad an idea. Racial "leveling" for races with HD wouldn't be bad either.
- "ascended" races; either short "paragon" PrCs or story-driven rewards/exchanges. For example, after a great deed in the defense of a dragon lord, you get the dragonic template for a certain price of feats, class abilities, etc.
What I'd like to see:
- sub-races for the major races. Why do every bunch of races everywhere - including deep mystics famous as sorcerers and oracles - need to have a charisma penalty? Why would sylvan elves that never built anything bigger than a hut and spend their entire life toughing it out in the deep woods have a bonus to intelligence and penalty to constitution?
Please, no. There is no reason for use to have an Elf For Every Day Of The Week.
An Elf is an Elf is an Elf, just like a Human is a Human is a Human.
I realize that I have made this comment a dozen times or more in this topic.
I will continue to make it until I am blue in the face, if I have to. Or at least until someone else steps up and takes that task over from me.
While I support your inclusion of the idea that a tribe of Elves living out in the deep woods shouldn't necessarily get a bonus to an attribute more commonly associated with erudite scholars, I cannot in good conscience say "Hey, these here Elves live in the FOREST, so they get different bonuses to their stats because THEY ARE A DIFFERENT RACE!"
That's just bad science. And I'm not even talking the Catgirl-Slaughtering "inserting hard science into the game" type of science.
I'm talking "If Humans are Humans no matter where they live, then so, too, should be Dwarves and Elves and Gnomes and whatever. If Humans don't get a Racial Subtype for Every Day Of The Week - then no one should."
You want subtypes? Change up skills based on terrain, geography, and culture. There's no reason to make up completely new races (sorry, "subtypes") just because this branch of Elves happens to live in the deep forest, while THAT branch of Elves happens to live in the valley.
I realize I'm spitting into the wind, here, but come on. It's not that hard to grasp - If a GM wants to say "Okay, so, this branch of Elves have been isolated from the rest of the world for a million years, and are therefore different from this other branch of elves," that's fine. But there's no reason for us to get an official product glutted with subraces for every type of Humanoid PC-playable Race when the book could be used to do so much more. Let the GM handle the Days of the Week. Let Paizo give us stuff that's actually useful.
Also, I've been awake since the wee hours of this morning, so it is entirely possible that I am over reacting. If I am, I apologize.
There is no reason for use to have an Elf For Every Day Of The Week.
An Elf is an Elf is an Elf, just like a Human is a Human is a Human.
I realize that I have made this comment a dozen times or more in this topic.
I will continue to make it until I am blue in the face, if I have to. Or at least until someone else steps up and takes that task over from me.
While I support your inclusion of the idea that a tribe of Elves living out in the deep woods shouldn't necessarily get a bonus to an attribute more commonly associated with erudite scholars, I cannot in good conscience say "Hey, these here Elves live in the FOREST, so they get different bonuses to their stats because THEY ARE A DIFFERENT RACE!"
That's just bad science. And I'm not even talking the Catgirl-Slaughtering "inserting hard science into the game" type of science.
I'm talking "If Humans are Humans no matter where they live, then so, too, should be Dwarves and Elves and Gnomes and whatever. If Humans don't get a Racial Subtype for Every Day Of The Week - then no one should."
You want subtypes? Change up skills based on terrain, geography, and culture. There's no reason to make up completely new races (sorry, "subtypes") just because this branch of Elves happens to live in the deep forest, while THAT branch of Elves happens to live in the valley.
I realize I'm spitting into the wind, here, but come on. It's not that hard to grasp - If a GM wants to say "Okay, so, this branch of Elves have been isolated from the rest of the world for a million years, and are therefore different from this other branch of elves," that's fine. But there's no reason for us to get an official product glutted with subraces for every type of Humanoid PC-playable Race when the book could be used to do so much more. Let the GM handle the Days of the Week. Let Paizo give us stuff that's actually useful.
You're not spitting into the wind. It's just random complexity that could be handled without subraces.
So what happens when you have a child of a wood elf and a plains elf? A half-plains half-wood elf? And so now we have half-wood elves different from half-mountain elves?
I'm really hoping this book doesn't take that path.
Now, with the "build your own races" stuff they've hinted at, if a given DM wanted to make some kind of racially distinct elf, sure, that's fine. Let's just avoid bloating the core rules with this kind of stuff.
The easier way to do it would be to set up 'sub races' as templates that get applied to ANY race. So, something like this :
Barbaric : This branch of the race has, for the last several thousand years, lived as a barbaric tribe in the wilds. This has led to a natural selection for those who are hardy over those who over think or are mechanically inclined. This template makes the following modifications :
Stats : INT -2, CON +2
Skills : If the base race get's bonuses to specific skills, change those bonuses to Knowledge (Nature) and Survival.
Civilized : This branch of the race has, for the last several thousand years, lived in large cities and is very civilized. This has led to a natural selection for those who are sharp witted, but also led to a general reduction in overall health due to lack of physical activity. This template makes the following modifications :
Stats : INT +2, CON -2
Skills : If the base race get's bonuses to specific skills, change those bonuses to Knowledge (Local) and Diplomacy.
The easier way to do it would be to set up 'sub races' as templates that get applied to ANY race. So, something like this :
Barbaric : This branch of the race has, for the last several thousand years, lived as a barbaric tribe in the wilds. This has led to a natural selection for those who are hardy over those who over think or are mechanically inclined. This template makes the following modifications :
Stats : INT -2, CON +2
Skills : If the base race get's bonuses to specific skills, change those bonuses to Knowledge (Nature) and Survival.Civilized : This branch of the race has, for the last several thousand years, lived in large cities and is very civilized. This has led to a natural selection for those who are sharp witted, but also led to a general reduction in overall health due to lack of physical activity. This template makes the following modifications :
Stats : INT +2, CON -2
Skills : If the base race get's bonuses to specific skills, change those bonuses to Knowledge (Local) and Diplomacy.
Definitely a better way to go about it than to provide as many subraces for every race as we an imagine.
The other thing though, is Intelligence is connected to book learning yes, but it's also connecting to problem solving and your ability to learn basic life skills (hence its connection to skill points) so while your Wood Elf Tribesman might be as uneducated as a hut dwelling mud thumping human, he might still be better at LEARNING because his brain is developed differently. Sure, he's still uneducated. You want to reflect that, take away the +2 Spellcraft and insert +2 Survival in its place. BAM Wood Elf. Take away the +2 CL for spell penetration and put in a +2 Stealth ....voila. Wood Elf.
Catgirl-slaughtering? what are talking about Jemstone?
Racial traits would be great to cover subraces, and yes humans are different from each other depending on where they live, what they eat, how they evolved over time, etc., that is science.
I'm talking "If Humans are Humans no matter where they live, then so, too, should be Dwarves and Elves and Gnomes and whatever. If Humans don't get a Racial Subtype for Every Day Of The Week - then no one should."
Not meaning to contrary, but in PF Humans are not necessarily the same no matter where they live. They - and a few other races, mostly human hybrids - have a +2 stat bonus which they can put wherever they wish. That's a built-in adaptation right there, one which most character creation processes (that I've seen) assign automatically to a stat which suits the PC's class, which in turn usually comes from a logical background. I.e., a Human Druid with +2 Wis from a woodland village, a Human Barbarian with +2 Con from the mountain tribes, a Human Wizard with +2 Int from the capital city.
Anyway, for my part I'm hoping for a well-balanced and useful toolbox, and not a list of sub-races.
Edit: somewhat ninja'ed by Dragon78! :)
You're not spitting into the wind. It's just random complexity that could be handled without subraces.
Thanks for that. I appreciate knowing I'm not completely off my kit, here.
Perhaps somewhat ironically, I'm all sorts of OK with MDT's idea. Easily ascribed templates are something a GM can say "yes" or "no" to with impunity. It's not so easy to say "Look, I know that the book has Elves of the Black Mountain in it, but I'm not using them." You think it might be. Decades of gaming tell me differently.
Dragon78 I refer you to the adage "every time you drag real physics into a discussion about a fantasy comic, God kills a catgirl. Please, think of the catgirls."
Basically, I'm not espousing Real World genetics, here - merely logical and internal consistency. If there aren't any Mountain Humans, then there shouldn't be any Mountain Elves.
Not meaning to contrary, but in PF Humans are not necessarily the same no matter where they live. They - and a few other races, mostly human hybrids - have a +2 stat bonus which they can put wherever they wish. That's a built-in adaptation right there, one which most character creation processes (that I've seen) assign automatically to a stat which suits the PC's class, which in turn usually comes from a logical background. I.e., a Human Druid with +2 Wis from a woodland village, a Human Barbarian with +2 Con from the mountain tribes, a Human Wizard with +2 Int from the capital city.
I don't find that contrary at all.
However, I think that a Human's +2 to any one stat is more indicative of that individuals focus and training, not necessarily any racial genotype or prominent phenotype. The character puts that stat bonus into his "primary" stat because it's just good sense to do so - either he was trained to boost that stat, or he was just born lucky with it.
I concur, though, it gets metagamed all to hell.
Anyway, for my part I'm hoping for a well-balanced and useful toolbox, and not a list of sub-races.
Agreed, agreed. :)
The other thing though, is Intelligence is connected to book learning yes, but it's also connecting to problem solving and your ability to learn basic life skills (hence its connection to skill points) so while your Wood Elf Tribesman might be as uneducated as a hut dwelling mud thumping human, he might still be better at LEARNING because his brain is developed differently. Sure, he's still uneducated. You want to reflect that, take away the +2 Spellcraft and insert +2 Survival in its place. BAM Wood Elf. Take away the +2 CL for spell penetration and put in a +2 Stealth ....voila. Wood Elf.
Uneducated would be illiterate, and he'd have non-int skills mostly, so no knowledge skills (except nature maybe). And, even if he's good at learning, he may not have anyone to learn from.
All of which is really beside the point though. The point of the exercise is to establish modifications to stats and skills that are race independent. Whether you like it or not, barbaric humanoids in PF/D&D are portrayed as not-smart but hardy (see Orcs for example, or minotaurs, or any number of monstrous humanoid that are portrayed as barbaric and uncivilized, they are much much more likely to have penalties to INT than any other stat, with CHA coming up a quick second, which is not really very realistic, as generally more primitive cultures usually put more stock into your personality than your brains or wisdom).
So, within the preconceptions of the game, wild and barbaric = con boost int drain. While civilized and soft from city living means int boost con drain.
(Disclaimer: I have only read the first post. Therefore, if someone has already posted suggestions similar to mine, I have not have read them.)
*** A well-balanced toolkit which can be used to build a race or give alternatives to pre-existing ones.
Example 1: making alternative versions of Tieflings and Aasimar which are still balanced. I hate the Fiendish Sorcery work-around for the Tiefling's Charisma penalty. I also hate the fact that Tieflings get a stat penalty while Aasimar do not.
Example 2: the same goes for Oreads and similar races. I need racial alternatives to Elemental Affinity for those characters who are not Sorcerers.
*** APG-style alternatives for other "PC-able" races.
*** A race which can be a reasonable substitute for 3.5's Goliath. As it stands, I'm not sold on the Oread (partly because of the wasted Elemental Affinity racial ability).
I agree with you 500%
An Elf is an Elf is an Elf, just like a Human is a Human is a Human.
Well of course it's an elf - nut what is an elf? I'm not making any new races. I am allowing for adaptations to environment, culture and history. In fact, humans already do that - this, imo, is what their racial floating bonus and feat account for.
As I see it, the human floating bonus and feat, imo, are there for the exact purposes of portraying the many different ethnicities, cultures, and genotypes. In effect, every human is a part of a "subrace" - a pigmy from the deep jungle most likely won't have +2 to strength (but might, as a quirk of nature), a city-dweller from the decadent empire won't likely have a +2 to constitution, and a member from isolationist cannibal tribe probably will miss on the +2 to charisma. Then add the bonus feat. Forest human - +2 con, skill focus (survival), bonus to some relevant skill - there you go. They are still humans in the game; they are only different mechanically.
The problem is that the other races, except to a degree half-elves and half-orks, don't work that way. They are "fixed" into one single archetype, no matter how, where and with whom they spent their lives. The APG only started to break the ice, but it only nibbles at the edges of these iconic racial stereotypes. Often, these iconic racial traits strike me as arbitrary conventions that only make sense in Golarion - and maybe not even there. So I can have highly cognitive orks or tougher-than-nails half-elves if I want, but all elves have to be intellectuals and magical geniuses, who get bruised in a strong wind and are the first to catch the flu or get out of breath? This strikes me as a rather arbitrary development of the archetype. I'd expect that as the "iconic" elf is associated with the wilds and forestry, a penalty to constitution makes as little sense as one to dexterity, and a bonus to intelligence is arbitrary - considering that elves are supposedly all that likeable, and magic and the song are "natural" to them, charisma makes at least as much sense. Similarly, why should all halflings be unnaturally gregarious, and just based on what are the small, twig-thin gnomes much hardier and resilient to blows than the average human? My problem is that if I want to play a non-human race, I am stuck with a lot of fixed and sometimes nearly arbitrary luggage. It's like going in a shop and wanting to buy soda, only to be told it only comes with cherry flavor. Why? Beats me, but if I want lemon flavor, I must either buy tonic water (why is it lemon-flavored anyway?) or get out.
Dwarves living in the far tundra and dwarves from an ancient, Rome-like empire will probably be quite a bit different from the iconic dwarves, and perhaps enough to merit mechanical differences. Yes, they will still be dwarves, yes, they may still interbreed, but that doesn't mean they have to have the same cultural stereotypes - gruff, wise, and hardy. There should be options to represent this - and if you think "subrace" is the wrong word for it, then just choose another. I chose that because this is how such deviations were called before.
I'd like to see a 'warforged', living construct, subrace of inevitables, or something along those lines.
Maybe they could come from that 'crashed spaceship' area, or be from planes of law, or set loose by the wizard who created them, and they just learned how to reproduce?
I'd also like to see some 'technology' to go with them, like upgrades, or equipment they can attach, like a crossbow or (gun)
Alluria Publishing's relluks are something like that, IIRC. (Of course, I'll know better once I can actually get my mitts on the product.)
But do we really need an individual entry for each simple tweak to a race trait?
Or is this an issue of "If it's not in a book my DM won't let me play it"?
Depending on how big an entry is, I don't see why not. If we are going to have a book of races, might as well put something more about the core races inside.
Also, don't underestimate the unwillingness of some DMs to go only with published materials. Many I've been with look at such "changes" as an attempt to be a special snowflake and game the system, even if some of the base rules make little sense.
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Personally instead of a plethora of subraces for every situation, I'd like to see something I've only ever seen even attempted in Rolemaster, because frankly, it's a good idea.
Separate Race, Culture, and Climate.
That way there's no need to elaborately work in (making the assumption that the gm wont allow custom houseruling of races - which is true in 85% of games) why my dwarf raised by elves knows how to dodge giants, and halforcs raised by gnomes wouldn't likely be taught to use orcish weapons.
Race: What you're born with, your potential, and abilities that develop with age, through no effort or training whatsoever.
Climate: The climate you grew up in. This could determine the skills you get for race, or maybe some climate specializations. Things you'd need to have picked up in such a climate.
Culture: Things you are taught by your society, things everyone learns in this culture while growing up, etc. Weapon Proficiencies and Dwarven combat training falls into this area.
And theoretically, you could still modify your race if they've been living in a situation so long that their racial capabilities have changed. You could make "hardy" races, "cunning", "intellectual", etc. The GM would be the only one doing this part most likely though, because if the PC says "I'm an elf racially adapted to be fireproof" the GM can say, that doesn't exist in this setting. (But if it *DOES*) then it's really easy for the GM to just plug it in and use it, without having to worry alot about "well I just made some stuff up. it looks like a comparable power level, I hope it is."
So: In a theoretical setting, let's say we're building a character where these are separated. I'm going to assume instead of having 3 separately balanced categories that you're picking from, they came up with a system of substitutions (3 different balanced things would be better, but for simplicity I'll do it this way)
So: I'm an Elf, From the Arctic Wilderness, who was raised by Human Vikings.
So I start with the Base Elf
+2Dex, +2Int, -2Con, lowlight vision, elven immunities, elven magic, keen senses, and elven weapons.
What's Racial?
Everything but weapons and elven magic..
So, assuming we're using a substitution system.
Replace Identify bonus with: +2 Survival in a cold northern climate (Climate (Arctic Wilderness)
Replace SR bonus with: +1 Hatred toward trolls and frost giants. (Culture (Viking))
Weapon Familiarity: longswords, battleaxes, medium shields, light crossbows. (elven weapons stay as exotic). (Culture (Viking)).
It would be nice to have a bunch of different climate and cultural packages - and it would be an effective and simple way to customize races for a setting without a million and one subraces needing to fill all that page space.
Count me in the "no new race, but expand existing ones, please" lot. Race creation rules (along with one example race) would be great for those who want [insert random obscure race name here].
But you should be able to do all that stuff yourself just by sitting down with your DM. I mean, you already know what level the bonuses should be. The +2 CL for an elf is the equivalent of a feat (Spell Penetration) so to replace it your DM picks a specific bonus equal to a fitting feat. +2 to certain skills...your DM replaces those skills with more appropriate skills.
I mean, this stuff is just common sense replacement. Why do we actually need a book dedicated to doing it?
I'd much rather see a collection of new races and a guide to building your own unique race with some kind of system in place to ensure those races are balanced with other player races.
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I mean, this stuff is just common sense replacement. Why do we actually need a book dedicated to doing it?
I'd much rather see a collection of new races and a guide to building your own unique race with some kind of system in place to ensure those races are balanced with other player races.
If its standardized like I mentioned above:
1. It could be usable in PFS - they'd just have to decide which ones apply to which climates and cultures.2. It removes any arguments about power levels.
3. It allows the adjustments to be consistent.
4. It works for games that don't allow houserules (I know alot of those).
5. It would give a little bit of commonality between humans from the same culture/climate, which would be nice.
I'm suggesting that adding the climate and culture sections is better than adding new races with those already mixed in, for the reasons mentioned above.
And yes, I'd want the guide to cover how to make your own racial, climate, and cultural adjustments, or how to make new ones from scratch, and have them be balanced. Ideally it would also cover how to go from a monster with abilities and HD to a player race + some sort of advancement rules to get the rest of the iconic stuff without becoming underpowered like SS did while preserving all of the monster's unique abilities, including additional ability enhancements during race gen or during leveling (something wotc failed to do in both 4e and 3.x - in 4e they discard the unique abilities, in 3.x they just designed a terrible system to account for them that wildly fluctuated between overpowered and underpowered, usually giving you underowered characters in the long run).
Right now I'm using a combination of Upper Krust's challenging challenge ratings (for 3.x, generally pretty good, but my god is it hard to read), and LPJsRace Creation Cookbook, along with some of my own notes. It would be nice if Paizo did a decent of race/climate/culture/class building rules. Would save me alot of trouble.
Soo, I'm adding in what I'd like to see in this book, which like savage species, is a book about a subject I'm most interested. Hopefully unlike Savage Species, this is more satisfying.
For what it's worth, I used to have a system similar to what Darkholme is suggesting, for a rather long-running 3.x game, and it worked pretty well.
I wonder if I still have those files... Hm.
I'd be in favor of showcasing some new races as a method of demonstrating how to use the Racial Creation guidelines. So for instance with the Minotaur, since I agree they're awesome and would love to see them. They get +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Cha and are balanced, or get +4 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Cha and are balanced, get a gore attack (instead of racial feat), a Powerful Charge ability +2 on Survival and Intimidate (racial skill bonuses), and proficiency with battleaxe and greataxe (or whatever) and that demonstrates how you create a race. Boom.
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I'd be in favor of showcasing some new races as a method of demonstrating how to use the Racial Creation guidelines. So for instance with the Minotaur, since I agree they're awesome and would love to see them. They get +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Cha and are balanced, or get +4 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Cha and are balanced, get a gore attack (instead of racial feat), a Powerful Charge ability +2 on Survival and Intimidate (racial skill bonuses), and proficiency with battleaxe and greataxe (or whatever) and that demonstrates how you create a race. Boom.
Hmm. Thats the basic idea of how to create a race, but thats, well, not tht great a way to adapt a monster into a race. You left a bunch of stuff out (which leaves people wondering "where did x go then?")
Minotaur (Bestiary)
He's level 6 (Using HD and BAB to judge (but only CR 4) - which makes this a bit hard.
Attribute bonuses: Lets figure out what his attribute bonuses are. the above guesswork is exactly what I want to avoid.
Str 19, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 8
Assuming he's a basic NPC (since he's a stock minotaur, he started with:
13 (Str), 12(Con), 11(Wis), 10(Dex), 9 (Int), 8(Cha), and a +1 to an attribute for level 4
That means he has roughly (assuming even numbered bonuses):
+6 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int (Lets treat the 11 in wis as a 10 for simplicity.)
Speed 30
Saves: F 4(5) (clearly a typo, theres no progression that would give a 4 here) R 5 W 5
+4 Perception, +4 Survival
Proficiency with Greataxe
Powerful Charge
Large Size (Space/Reach 10)
+5 Natural Armor
Powerful Charge
3 Feats (1, 3, 5)
Skills
Intimidate 6 Ranks, Perception 6 Ranks, Stealth 6 Ranks, Survival 6 Ranks (24 skill points over 6 levels..) 4 skills per level, taking into account and intmod of -2, that's a 6 per level.
Full BAB
Darkvision 60
Natural Cunning: Immunity (Maze), Can't get lost, Never flat footed.
Definitely not a level one character, But not equivalent to a level 6 character either (Hence CR 4)
So lets pick out a subset to be the base race (I normally use a weighted point cost system, but since this is just an example, I'm going to eyeball it to make it similar to existing races.)
Minotaur Racial Traits (using dwarf for comparison)
+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int //sure theyre both physical bonuses, but thats what the minotaur has, and its still a net +2.
Large Size (-1 ac, -1 to hit, +1 CMB/CMD, -4 Stealth, Space 10 ft. Reach 10 ft.)
// the damage chart doesnt work well for creatures over medium, lets assume they make it follow the pattern from
// small/medium creatures like I suggested above. Being large gives on average +1 damage per hit, regardless of
// base weapon type. I'm going to say space cancels out reach, but I can't guarantee that's the case, they'd
// need to playtest it.
// But space means you can be attacked from 12 adjacent squares, instead of 8.
Speed 30 //Minotaurs dont go as fast as most large creatures.
Darkvision 60ft. //As dwarf.
Gore attack 1d6//~A little better than Dwarven +1 to hit vs orcs and goblins. You're getting +3.5+Str damage on an extra hit, but the attack is always at a -5 to hit.
+2 Natural Armor// ~Equiv to Dwarven +2 vs poisons and spells and SLAs.
Keen Senses: +4 Perception// ~Equiv to Dwarven +2 CMD vs Bull Rush/Trip when on solid ground + Dwarven +4 AC vs Giants
Natural Cunning: Immunity (Maze), Can't get lost //~Little weaker than Dwarven +2 Perception vs weird stonework, get to check it automatically.
// Natural cunning normally means you're Never flat footed. Lets pull out never being flat footed, thats a bit much for a level 1 race We won't drop it though, we're shelving it till advancement.
// Maze may be a high level spell, but its only one spell, the dwarven +2 against all spells is better, it can stay.
Weapon Familiarity: Battleaxe, Greataxe. Anything with Minotaur in the name is a Martial Weapon. //~Equiv to Dwarven Proficiency: Battleaxe, Heavy Pick, Warhammer. Anything with Dwarven in the name is Martial instead of exotic.
We left a bunch of stuff out that doesnt fit in a level 1 character. Lets look at that.
- Never Flat-Footed
- +4 more Str
- Powerful Charge
- +4 Survival
- +3 Natural Armor
Now looking at what's left.
Minotaur Racial Class:
Prerequisites: Minotaur Race, Gore Attack, Natural Cunning.
d10 hd.
6 Skill Points per level.
No Class Skills.....
Saves:
Fort, Ref, Will: as Arcane Archer Fort Save.
Class Features
No Weapon/Armor Proficiencies.
Level 1 Powerful Charge
Level 2 +1 Natural Armor, +2 Survival
Level 3 +2 Str
Level 4 +1 Natural Armor, +2 Survival
Level 5 +2 Str
Level 6 +1 Natural Armor, Never Flat Footed.
//This would make a reasonable PrC if it had some class skills.
Class Skills
Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Geography), Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Nature), Perception, Sense Motive, Survival, Swim.
Now we've got a Minotaur Race that (at least looks) balanced, and a way to progress through and get the rest of the minotaur abilities.
Here's the finished product.
Minotaur Racial Traits
+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int
Large Size (-1 ac, -1 to hit, +1 CMB/CMD, -4 Stealth, Space 10 ft. Reach 10 ft.)
Speed 30
Darkvision 60ft.
Gore attack 1d6
+2 Natural Armor
Keen Senses: +4 Perception
Natural Cunning: Immunity (Maze), Can't get lost
Weapon Familiarity: Battleaxe, Greataxe. Anything with Minotaur in the name is a Martial Weapon. //~Equiv to Dwarven Proficiency: Battleaxe, Heavy Pick, Warhammer. Anything with Dwarven in the name is Martial instead of exotic.
Minotaur Racial Class (PrC):
Prerequisites: Minotaur Race, Gore Attack, Natural Cunning.
d10 hd.
Skills
Class Skills: Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Geography), Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Nature), Perception, Sense Motive, Survival, Swim.
6 Skill Points per level.
Saves:
Fort, Ref, Will: as Arcane Archer Fort Save.
Class Features
All numerical bonuses granted by this class stack with the bonuses from Race.
Level 1 Powerful Charge
Level 2 +1 Natural Armor, +2 Survival
Level 3 +2 Str
Level 4 +2 Natural Armor, +4 Survival
Level 5 +4 Str
Level 6 +3 Natural Armor, Never Flat Footed.
And there we go. Nothing got left out. Just make sure that the players take a level in another class if they want armor and weapon proficiencies.
The class may be a tad on the weak side though. Its possible those class abilities may need to be condensed into 5 levels instead of 6.
I'd still like to see the 3 section breakdown implemented though, even if using it raises the power level of everything across the board a little bit by having these separate things. I'm okay with everyone and everything getting +2 to like 2 more skills or a couple weapon focuses or something if it means having that level of modular customizeability.
The problem with that is that you have created a base race that is so astronomically better at being a melee combatant that if it existed, the bar would be raised so high that no other race could reach it if they wanted to play melee in the same party.
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This is true. it is one beast of a melee race. The problem is I'm not adding any *new* abilities to the race that weren't in the monster its based on, and the monster its based on is a beast in melee, with little else for capabilities.
It would be hard to make a minotaur PC race that is actually the same species, without it being a beast in Melee.
Most of the other races have a few abilities related to this, a few to that, but most of the abilities the minotaur gets are just being strong and tough, with a Gore attack.
You could add in WoW style Tauren, with a wisdom focus, but frankly, tauren aren't minotaurs. They look like minotaurs; that's about it.
The PrC looks pretty good to me, but you're right about the race being a melee beast; all the minotaur stuff sinergizes together really well for the frontline fighter schtick.
I suppose you could swap the Survival bonus and the Natural Armor.
Would that be enough of an improvement, do you think? Here's an examination of it.
Minotaur Racial Traits: Take 2
+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int
Large Size (-1 ac, -1 to hit, +1 CMB/CMD, -4 Stealth, Space 10 ft. Reach 10 ft.)
Speed 30
Darkvision 60ft.
Gore attack 1d6
Keen Senses: +4 Perception
+4 Survival
Natural Cunning: Immunity (Maze), Can't get lost
Weapon Familiarity: Battleaxe, Greataxe. Anything with Minotaur in the name is a Martial Weapon instead of Exotic.
+2Str, +2 Con, -2 Int. As I said, if you change this very much you're making a different creature, since the "Commoner Minotaur" has +6Str, +2 Con, -2 Int.
Large Size. Minotaurs are large creatures.
Speed... 30 ft.
Darkvision 60ft.
Gore Attack: 1d6. Unless you're making hornless cow people its hard to take this away.
Keen Senses: This one's not problematic.
+4 Survival. This either.
Natural Cunning: I pulled out the combat capable part, I dont think this part is problematic.
Weapon Familiarity: These are admittedly some big weapons, but assuming the weapon damage chart is changed to make large creatures playable, the greataxe would do d10+d4 instead of 3d6, which puts it on the standard track of next size up = +2 max damage. We could use a d14 instead; they do make those, but they're a bit hard to find.
You've got the race with +2Str+2Con, a barrier that hadn't been crossed before, which makes this inherently good at melee.
They're large, which gives reach, but makes them an easy target, the revised damage table (which is absolutely necessary if you allow large creatures to be playable) means that the size bump grants them +1 damage on average.
They get a d6 gore at a -5 when they full attack. That's a free second iterative attack. But you cant have minotaurs without gore.
The weapon familiarities shouldn't be a big problem. Either theyre a melee character and already have these weapons available, or they're likely not a melee beast and are playing cross-type.
I dont think it can be toned down any more than that, at bare minimum a minotaur is still a race with +2 str, +2 con, a gore attack, and reach(from being large). I can't think of a way to give it more general abilities here without ditching the things that make it a minotaur. Well you could add the stipulation that Reach doesn't apply to the Gore.
Any suggestions on doing it better? Cause I'm pretty sure that if you put a Minotaur on the level of the other PCs, either it's not even going to be the same creature anymore, or it will be a beast in melee combat.
Elves make good rogues and wizards.
Dwarves make good clerics, druids, fighters, barbarians, and rangers.
Minotaurs Make good rangers, fighters, and barbarians, but they kindof suck at everything else.
(Even though I've already chimed in.)
+1 to a toolkit which takes into account race, climate, and culture.
I just really hope that the race creation system they come up with allows for more than just skills and save bonuses for custom races. like how the existing races all have something a little unuiqe such as the half-orcs furocity.
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Oh. Absolutely. I hope they allow for flavorful things like that as well, skill and save bonuses and stuff are kindof bland comparatively.
But at the same time, you need a system to adapt existing monsters.
Hmm. I suppose here's what I think we need:
1. Modular Race Creation: Race, Climate/Environment, Culture.
2. Some guidelines for making flavorful *New* Racial abilities, with some samples; to allow for the sort of uniqueness northbrb described.
3. Support for more powerful Races, whether through Racial PrCs as I described above, or some kind of racial substitution abilities. You need to be able to have the more powerful races, as well as being able to have them start at the same level as existing characters.
4. Support for player races smaller than small, and larger than medium. There will need to be adjustments to weapon damage at the top end to make this possible.
5. A method for making existing monsters into races. It shouldn't ditch any of the capabilities of the monster, and if they are too powerful for level 1, shou8ld allow for some kind of progression to acquire them. The example minotaur I gave is one possible approach. It's important to be able to make a creature of the same CR as the monster that has all the capabilities the original monster had.
In that case they need to clarify that s$** because nowhere on the entry on Vamps is that mentioned.Actually, the level adjustment is stated in the last line of the "Creating a Vampire" section of the Vampire template.
Uhm, no it doesn't.
Creating a Vampire“Vampire” is an acquired template that can be added to any living creature with 5 or more Hit Dice (referred to hereafter as the base creature). Most vampires were once humanoids, fey, or monstrous humanoids. A vampire uses the base creature's stats and abilities except as noted here.
CR: Same as the base creature + 2.
AL: Any evil.
Type: The creature's type changes to undead (augmented). Do not recalculate class Hit Dice, BAB, or saves.
Senses: A vampire gains darkvision 60 ft.
Armor Class: Natural armor improves by +6.
Hit Dice: Change all racial Hit Dice to d8s. Class Hit Dice are unaffected. As undead, vampires use their Charisma modifier to determine bonus hit points (instead of Constitution).
Defensive Abilities: A vampire gains channel resistance +4, DR 10/magic and silver, and resistance to cold 10 and electricity 10, in addition to all of the defensive abilities granted by the undead type. A vampire also gains fast healing 5. If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, a vampire assumes gaseous form (see below) and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed. (It can normally travel up to 9 miles in 2 hours.) Additional damage dealt to a vampire forced into gaseous form has no effect. Once at rest, the vampire is helpless. It regains 1 hit point after 1 hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 5 hit points per round.
Weaknesses: Vampires cannot tolerate the strong odor of garlic and will not enter an area laced with it. Similarly, they recoil from mirrors or strongly presented holy symbols. These things don't harm the vampire—they merely keep it at bay. A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against that creature. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action. After 1 round, a vampire can overcome its revulsion of the object and function normally each round it makes a DC 25 Will save.
Vampires cannot enter a private home or dwelling unless invited in by someone with the authority to do so.
Reducing a vampire's hit points to 0 or lower incapacitates it but doesn't always destroy it (see fast healing). However, certain attacks can slay vampires. Exposing any vampire to direct sunlight staggers it on the first round of exposure and destroys it utterly on the second consecutive round of exposure if it does not escape. Each round of immersion in running water inflicts damage on a vampire equal to one-third of its maximum hit points—a vampire reduced to 0 hit points in this manner is destroyed. Driving a wooden stake through a helpless vampire's heart instantly slays it (this is a full-round action). However, it returns to life if the stake is removed, unless the head is also severed and anointed with holy water.
Speed: Same as the base creature. If the base creature has a swim speed, the vampire is not unduly harmed by running water.
Melee: A vampire gains a slam attack if the base creature didn't have one. Damage for the slam depends on the vampire's size (see Natural Attacks). Its slam also causes energy drain (see below). Its natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Special Attacks: A vampire gains several special attacks. Save DCs are equal to 10 + 1/2 vampire's HD + vampire's Cha modifier unless otherwise noted.
Blood Drain (Su): A vampire can suck blood from a grappled opponent; if the vampire establishes or maintains a pin, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution damage. The vampire heals 5 hit points or gains 5 temporary hit points for 1 hour (up to a maximum number of temporary hit points equal to its full normal hit points) each round it drains blood.
Children of the Night (Su): Once per day, a vampire can call forth 1d6+1 rat swarms, 1d4+1 bat swarms, or 2d6 wolves as a standard action. (If the base creature is not terrestrial, this power might summon other creatures of similar power.) These creatures arrive in 2d6 rounds and serve the vampire for up to 1 hour.
Create Spawn (Su): A vampire can create spawn out of those it slays with blood drain or energy drain, provided that the slain creature is of the same creature type as the vampire's base creature type. The victim rises from death as a vampire in 1d4 days. This vampire is under the command of the vampire that created it, and remains enslaved until its master's destruction. A vampire may have enslaved spawn totaling no more than twice its own Hit Dice; any spawn it creates that would exceed this limit become free-willed undead. A vampire may free an enslaved spawn in order to enslave a new spawn, but once freed, a vampire or vampire spawn cannot be enslaved again.
Dominate (Su): A vampire can crush a humanoid opponent's will as a standard action. Anyone the vampire targets must succeed on a Will save or fall instantly under the vampire's influence, as though by a dominate person spell (caster level 12th). The ability has a range of 30 feet. At the GM's discretion, some vampires might be able to affect different creature types with this power.
Energy Drain (Su): A creature hit by a vampire's slam (or other natural weapon) gains two negative levels. This ability only triggers once per round, regardless of the number of attacks a vampire makes.
Special Qualities: A vampire gains the following.
Change Shape (Su): A vampire can use change shape to assume the form of a dire bat or wolf, as beast shape II.
Gaseous Form (Su): As a standard action, a vampire can assume gaseous form at will (caster level 5th), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability.
Shadowless (Ex): A vampire casts no shadows and shows no reflection in a mirror.
Spider Climb (Ex): A vampire can climb sheer surfaces as though under the effects of a spider climb spell.
Ability Scores Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4. As an undead creature, a vampire has no Constitution score.
Skills Vampires gain a +8 racial bonus on Bluff, Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth checks.
Feats Vampires gain Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, and Toughness as bonus feats.
Nothing in there about raising the CR by 8. It only talks about CR +2.
Note : the reason a vampire is lowballed on the CR side is that they have such huge giant weaknesses (that you could fly an elder dragon through the gap of) that they are not actually as tough as they should be.
A vampire PC should restrict the PCs to only traveling and working at night or underground. He has to have a casket somewhere, or he's in trouble, if he get's staked or whatever. The first time he falls in running water with armor on he's permadead. Sunlight permadeads him. Positive Energy permadeads him. Also note that vampires are Evil, so he'd best be running with a neutral group.
The local Paladins are going to be after his butt, with malice and aforethought as well.
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(Even though I've already chimed in.)
+1 to a toolkit which takes into account race, climate, and culture.
During Beta I suggested that some racial abilities should be structural and others be cultural (such greed or race hatred or weapon familiarities) and that the cultural ones should be listed in italics, to differentiate them from those that every dwarf, elf, etc. has, to give a GM an idea which ones would be most 'hot-swappable' without adding more than a sentence to the book (italicized racial traits are cultural or learned traits that may vary between different populations of the same species).
I'd like to see that sort of thing re-considered, if this new book has room for that sentence, since I was assured that the core book would not have room for it.
Well, as a general common sense guide to allowing nonstandard races and templates to be used, consider that an NPC is CR -3 and a PC is CR -2
So if you look at a Drow Noble or a Snirfneblin who are CR = Level then they're (rule of thumb) 2 levels higher than a normal player race.
I'd guess that whatever template you consider adding you look at what it adds to the CR and consider that at LEAST the level adjustment, then maybe add a +1 level adjustment for every super-power that goes above and beyond the simple template abilities.
The weaknesses aren't that huge for our party
Which means that the CR should be adjusted for a vampire in your campaign then, due to the world deviating from the normal. A vampire is more powerful in your world than in other worlds. It's as if you took a vampire out of a normal world and stuck him in a world where it's an eternally dark desert.
Since the vampire doesn't have to worry about good creatures, daylight spells, or daylight itself, that should boost the CR by at least 2 or 3 levels. You shouldn't be surprised that he's dominating, you've taken the two biggest drawbacks and thrown them away.
No offense, but it's sort of like complaining that Paladin's are overpowered in a campaign where every enemy is evil and takes extra damage from good creatures.