The thing is, everyone's concerned about these spells disrupting the flow of gameplay, but that's actually what I think is cool about them.
Well, they were, but we've all been sidetracked into wizards being all-powerful and Emergency Force Sphere making them into unstoppable front-line gods...
...which I still don't get. They can't do anything but buff and I don't see how buffing during a battle can ever be seen as good use of a wizard's time.
...which I still don't get. They can't do anything but buff and I don't see how buffing during a battle can ever be seen as good use of a wizard's time.
Buffing, in addition to avoiding being feebleminded, stunned, grappled, full-attacked, etc., seems a very decent option for a wizard's time. The wizard can still do whatever the wizard wants to do up to the point where he CHOOSES not to be targeted by some particularly nasty effect. Then it's even better to summon a medium-sized critter within your protective shell (5 ft radius spell).
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...which I still don't get. They can't do anything but buff and I don't see how buffing during a battle can ever be seen as good use of a wizard's time.Buffing, in addition to avoiding being feebleminded, stunned, grappled, full-attacked, etc., seems a very decent option for a wizard's time. The wizard can still do whatever the wizard wants to do up to the point where he CHOOSES not to be targeted by some particularly nasty effect. Then it's even better to summon a medium-sized critter within your protective shell (5 ft radius spell).
You also have to consider the action economy. Say you're fighting a single 'boss' monster. The party already gets 4, or 5, or whatever rounds of actions to the monster's one. If that monster's one round is thwarted by an immediate action spell, you've basically doubled the number of actions that the party gets compared to the monster. Never mind that the wizard can only buff in the sphere, because the rest of the party can do whatever they like. It's cost them next to nothing - not even a standard action - to thwart their opponent's turn.
Another problem I have with spells like Emergency Force Sphere, is why a martial character can't do the same thing with the appropriate training (feat) when using a shield or parry with a sword? The closest thing may be the deflect arrows feat. But if you can deflect an arrow, surely the others are possible.
But overall I prefer a low magic system that is more limited in scope.
As to immediate actions, all we can hope is improvements are incorporated into the game in the long term.
Another problem I have with spells like Emergency Force Sphere, is why a martial character can't do the same thing with the appropriate training (feat) when using a shield or parry with a sword?
Exactly. The lack of imagination in create a martial counterpart irks me.
BTW, your idea would be great for high level "fixes" for mundane PCs.
You also have to consider the action economy. Say you're fighting a single 'boss' monster. The party already gets 4, or 5, or whatever rounds of actions to the monster's one. If that monster's one round is thwarted by an immediate action spell, you've basically doubled the number of actions that the party gets compared to the monster. Never mind that the wizard can only buff in the sphere, because the rest of the party can do whatever they like. It's cost them next to nothing - not even a standard action - to thwart their opponent's turn.
Excellent point! In this circumstance, it's actually better for the party's Wizard to draw fire. And think of the action economy for a party that NEVER has to position to protect its arcane caster.
I'm afraid that EFS suffers from a multitude of what must be considered unintended consequences.
You also have to consider the action economy. Say you're fighting a single 'boss' monster. The party already gets 4, or 5, or whatever rounds of actions to the monster's one. If that monster's one round is thwarted by an immediate action spell, you've basically doubled the number of actions that the party gets compared to the monster. Never mind that the wizard can only buff in the sphere, because the rest of the party can do whatever they like. It's cost them next to nothing - not even a standard action - to thwart their opponent's turn.
By that argument, we better get rid of a whole lot of spells. And what it costs them is the ability to affect the enemy while they remain inside. That isn't to say the spell doesn't have elements of overpowered to it, but its brokenness is being hyperbolized. More importantly, I'm not seeing how its immediacy is putting it over the top.
Would people find a spell that took the casters concentration or somehow cost them their next standard action to be equally objectionable?
This reminds me celerity. Dazed as a drawback, and then suddenly everybody tried to obtain daze immunity.
Dear God. Celerity.
Dear.. God.
Would people find a spell that took the casters concentration or somehow cost them their next standard action to be equally objectionable?
With an immediate action, and no save, at 4th level? Yes, objectionable. 'Equally' will depend upon the specifics. See, you've just countered a standard action with an immediate action. Your target has lost his standard action, your standard action is still to come. Unless the target is similarly equipped, you've taken a huge advantage by bypassing the turn by turn sequence of events within the game.
The wizard can still do whatever the wizard wants to do up to the point where he CHOOSES not to be targeted by some particularly nasty effect. Then it's even better to summon a medium-sized critter within your protective shell (5 ft radius spell).
I'm not sure what you mean by the sentence starting "The wizard can still do..." Anybody can do whatever they want within the rules until they do something else. Wizard is doing wizardy things -- maybe he just cast Black Tentacles -- until he's attacked, then he has to pay a swift action and a standard action and a 4th level spell to negate the attack.
I stand behind my assertion that buffing -- certainly buffing more than one round for, say, Transformation, in very specific cases/builds -- is a bad use of caster's rounds. I suppose this might be a function of particular gaming groups -- battles that last longer and spells which are less effective would change the relative value.
Summoning a medium-sized creature inside your shield is clever, and I like that, but you'll still have to dismiss the shield to let it out, so what you're really gaining is one swift action (you pay the swift action for EFS spell on the round when you're summoning, so you could quicken something the round you come out, if you wait a round to come out) and the ability to not be interrupted while you're summoning. Nice, but not something I'd plan on using all the time when there's better ways of safely getting summons out (quicker).
You also have to consider the action economy. Say you're fighting a single 'boss' monster. The party already gets 4, or 5, or whatever rounds of actions to the monster's one. If that monster's one round is thwarted by an immediate action spell, you've basically doubled the number of actions that the party gets compared to the monster. Never mind that the wizard can only buff in the sphere, because the rest of the party can do whatever they like. It's cost them next to nothing - not even a standard action - to thwart their opponent's turn.
This is true whenever you have a large party vs one monster with one thing to do per round.
If anything, this is better for the monster than if it had missed the AC fighter or mistook the paladin for a fighter and tried to dominate him because at least the caster loses a swift action to cast, and a standard action to dismiss the shield and used resources (a 4th level spell that could have been Enervation or Black Tentacles). Barring the rare case where the monster gains something from hitting (Vampiric Touch, or hp from inflicting negative levels or something) it's mechanically very similar (for that round) to a 1 hit kill. The only action the caster has left on his turn is a move action, and if he really wants to run away the monster gets an AOO.
Would people find a spell that took the casters concentration or somehow cost them their next standard action to be equally objectionable?With an immediate action, and no save, at 4th level? Yes, objectionable. 'Equally' will depend upon the specifics. See, you've just countered a standard action with an immediate action. Your target has lost his standard action, your standard action is still to come. Unless the target is similarly equipped, you've taken a huge advantage by bypassing the turn by turn sequence of events within the game.
I was talking about the caster's next turn. As in, you just took your turn early.
Yes, that bypasses the turn events of the game, the same way haste violates the economy of actions or rope trick violates sleeping. Spells give us advantages or our characters wouldn't use them. The question is, is it broken, and I just don't see how using a spell to take your turn a little early is broken.
Either way, I actually don't think the spill is nearly as bad as it's being made out to be, as is.
I'm not sure what you mean by the sentence starting "The wizard can still do..." Anybody can do whatever they want within the rules until they do something else. Wizard is doing wizardy things -- maybe he just cast Black Tentacles -- until he's attacked, then he has to pay a swift action and a standard action and a 4th level spell to negate the attack.
I stand behind my assertion that buffing -- certainly buffing more than one round for, say, Transformation, in very specific cases/builds -- is a bad use of caster's rounds. I suppose this might be a function of particular gaming groups -- battles that last longer and spells which are less effective would change the relative value.
Summoning a medium-sized creature inside your shield is clever, and I like that, but you'll still have to dismiss the shield to let it out, so what you're really gaining is one swift action (you pay the swift action for EFS spell on the round when you're summoning, so you could quicken something the round you come out, if you wait a round to come out) and the ability to not be interrupted while you're summoning. Nice, but not something I'd plan on using all the time when there's better ways of safely getting summons out (quicker).
Wasting an opponent's action. Completely avoiding having to make (potentially multiple) saves or taking (potentially multiples of) damage or being subjected to (potentially multiple) conditions. Buying time to summon uninterrupted and/or buff. All of these things have value (although it seems many do not value its complete protection vs multiple opponents enough to even mention it), and all of them cost actions on their own (wasting an opponent's action seems like a standard action spell, complete reactive protection doesn't even exist in any other form - but similar force effects are a standard action - and accrue the same disadvantages you describe, and if you were going to summon anyway, might as well be uninterrupted). EFS gives all of this action economy to you for a 4th level slot, a (circumstantial) swift action, and a standard action.
Not dying or being incapacitated seems like a valuable use of a wizard's resources.
I'm more than willing to hear the better ways of safely getting summons out quicker.
The MAIN reason in my experience that immediate action spells are annoying is merely that they interrupt the flow of the game. They're designed to do so. It's like putting rules in the game that encourage you to interrupt other players in the middle of talking. It's kinda annoying.
I've much less a problem with swift action spells, since swift actions have to happen on your turn, and thus you're not interrupting anyone but yourself.
As if that doesn't already happen without the immediate actions. I personally think it's a great way for players to stay focused in the game, as they pay more attention to see if getting out that immediate action is necessary. It gives players something to do when waiting for their turn. Waiting 15+ minutes for your turn to come around again, which increases at higher gameplay levels, is what causes players to be bored and disruptive in non-gaming matters. At least with immediate actions, a combat WILL end faster while staying focused on the game simultaneously. It kills 2 birds with one stone.
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As if that doesn't already happen without the immediate actions. I personally think it's a great way for players to stay focused in the game, as they pay more attention to see if getting out that immediate action is necessary. It gives players something to do when waiting for their turn. Waiting 15+ minutes for your turn to come around again, which increases at higher gameplay levels, is what causes players to be bored and disruptive in non-gaming matters. At least with immediate actions, a combat WILL end faster while staying focused on the game simultaneously. It kills 2 birds with one stone.The MAIN reason in my experience that immediate action spells are annoying is merely that they interrupt the flow of the game. They're designed to do so. It's like putting rules in the game that encourage you to interrupt other players in the middle of talking. It's kinda annoying.
I've much less a problem with swift action spells, since swift actions have to happen on your turn, and thus you're not interrupting anyone but yourself.
Except they make the time between actual turns even longer. So for players whose characters don't have interrupting spells the problem is even worse. Powers that make the play experience better for one player and worse for the rest of the table are just not good for the game.
Wasting an opponent's action.
That's not different from having high AC, high saves, the rogue's ability to redirect attacks, elemental immunities, SR, spell turning, death ward, protection from evil, or a number of other things. Sometimes actions work, sometimes they do not. At least if an action is blocked by an EFS it has used up /some/ enemy resources -- EFS is a multi-purpose, resource-intensive counter, but not unique as a counter.
Completely avoiding having to make (potentially multiple) saves or taking (potentially multiples of) damage or being subjected to (potentially multiple) conditions. Buying time to summon uninterrupted and/or buff. All of these things have value (although it seems many do not value its complete protection vs multiple opponents enough to even mention it)
The potential of multiple saves and protection from multiple opponents is pretty limited. Barring a wizard leading in a 10' wide hallway, or a DM playing perfectly stupid monsters as perfectly stupid monsters who keep trying the same thing while it keeps not working, those other saves and attacks are going to go to the rest of the party while the caster sits in his bubble and does not very much.
And I've played with people whose characters ran away, hid, and very safely did not very much, and I didn't really consider them all that overpowered.
and all of them cost actions on their own (wasting an opponent's action seems like a standard action spell,
Which EMF in actual effect is. Dismissing it is a standard action, and unless you hang out in there for at least a round, you won't have your swift action when you come out.
and if you were going to summon anyway, might as well be uninterrupted) [snip] I'm more than willing to hear the better ways of safely getting summons out quicker.
This is true. A 4th level spell to basically ensure your safety throughout a 1 round casting time may be worthwhile in some cases.
There are a few ways to summon quicker. The first, obviously, is Quicken Spell -- which not only reduces the casting time but also removes the AOO provocation. In most games this won't be worthwhile because of the level adjust, but in low point buy games I think a dedicated summoner could manage. The second way is to play a Summoner. The third way is to play a Totem Shaman Druid, who can Summon Nature's Ally animals of his particular sort as a Standard Action. The last way (that I know of offhand) is to be a Preservationist Alchemist; he could possibly be a better summoner than anyone else, since with a few discoveries he has access to both Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally lists, and can take the discovery allowing others to use his extracts. If you really wanted to, you AND your tumor familiar could summon in the same round, as standard actions.
Except they make the time between actual turns even longer. So for players whose characters don't have interrupting spells the problem is even worse. Powers that make the play experience better for one player and worse for the rest of the table are just not good for the game.
Not tremendously so. By the time use of EFS becomes available with any sort of regularity, Quickened Spells are probably an issue, and EFS takes away future swift actions. Also, those without spells should still pay attention -- AOOs are awesome.
That's not different from having high AC, high saves, the rogue's ability to redirect attacks, elemental immunities, SR, spell turning, death ward, protection from evil, or a number of other things. Sometimes actions work, sometimes they do not. At least if an action is blocked by an EFS it has used up /some/ enemy resources -- EFS is a multi-purpose, resource-intensive counter, but not unique as a counter.
except that
- the number of threats covered by this defense is enormous
- is in the context of an already very powerful and verstile class.
Ignore the context of powers and spells can be very dangerous IMHO.
I was talking about the caster's next turn. As in, you just took your turn early.
Yes, that bypasses the turn events of the game, the same way haste violates the economy of actions or rope trick violates sleeping. Spells give us advantages or our characters wouldn't use them. The question is, is it broken, and I just don't see how using a spell to take your turn a little early is broken.
I'm not sure how what you're describing is supposed to work. Are you saying that the Wizard takes his turn, and, before his next turn, casts an immediate action spell to take his upcoming turn immediately, and then foregoing his next turn when it should have arrived in the initiative sequence? You don't see a problem with a Wizard taking 2 turns in a row?
Haste does not provide anyone more actions.
That's not different from having high AC, high saves, the rogue's ability to redirect attacks, elemental immunities, SR, spell turning, death ward, protection from evil, or a number of other things. Sometimes actions work, sometimes they do not. At least if an action is blocked by an EFS it has used up /some/ enemy resources -- EFS is a multi-purpose, resource-intensive counter, but not unique as a counter.
All of the defenses you listed above depend upon either luck (die rolls) or prescience. EFS depends upon having a 4th level slot. Which do you think is more reliable?
Against EFS, actions do not sometimes work.
I was talking about the caster's next turn. As in, you just took your turn early.
Yes, that bypasses the turn events of the game, the same way haste violates the economy of actions or rope trick violates sleeping. Spells give us advantages or our characters wouldn't use them. The question is, is it broken, and I just don't see how using a spell to take your turn a little early is broken.
I'm not sure how what you're describing is supposed to work. Are you saying that the Wizard takes his turn, and, before his next turn, casts an immediate action spell to take his upcoming turn immediately, and then foregoing his next turn when it should have arrived in the initiative sequence? You don't see a problem with a Wizard taking 2 turns in a row?
Haste does not provide anyone more actions.
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I was saying, perhaps a solution for immediate defense spells would be to take up ones turn. For example, if the opponent won initiative and you used EFS, but then couldn't perform a standard action when your turn came around.
And, before iterative attacks set in (and a lot of games take place at lower levels) haste may as well provide additional actions.
I am growing to hate immediate actions, more and more, and Paizo has introduced quite a few of them these days.
It's not that I, as a GM, want my players to die, or not to get bonuses, or what have you, but when I'm juggling X number of bad guys and trying to think like the guy I'm portraying, and remembering all the rules and the scenario I'm running, the last thing I want to do is to hear, in the middle of what I'm doing . . . "wait, before you can do that, this happens."
Not only does it disrupt the overall flow of initiative, and not only does it interrupt my GM concentration, it also gives the impression of the guy that has the immediate actions as having multiple actions compared to everyone else in the party, especially if they say, move, ready an action, use their action when readied, and then use their immediate action.
It's a pain, and I thought with it being a known issue it would have been avoided a bit more than it was.
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I think immediate action spells are the best addition 3.5 brought to the game we all love. A weaker spell you can whiff during emergencies? great!
Feather fall is the best example: before immediate actions were formalized, the spell required some weird "go off automatically but it's not a contingency" wording.
Long live immediate actions!
I was saying, perhaps a solution for immediate defense spells would be to take up ones turn. For example, if the opponent won initiative and you used EFS, but then couldn't perform a standard action when your turn came around.
I think that's an elegant solution, and well worth exploring!
Except they make the time between actual turns even longer. So for players whose characters don't have interrupting spells the problem is even worse. Powers that make the play experience better for one player and worse for the rest of the table are just not good for the game.
All the more reason, than, for Paizo to release a ton of immediate actions not just for magic but for combatants as well. One of the very few things I give 4E credit for is their introduction to a host of immediate actions (aka interrupts) with all their classes.
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The MAIN reason in my experience that immediate action spells are annoying is merely that they interrupt the flow of the game. They're designed to do so.Star Wars saga Edition went this route with the Reaction action. At first (low levels), it's kind of a neat idea. It breaks down once you get into higher levels because everyone has a ton of Reaction powers/abilities ... especially Jedi. GM interrupting players, players interrupting GM, players interrupting players. Combat becomes very chaotic because there are actually situations where nearly everyone at the table gets a reaction and they can build on each other.
-Skeld
Speaking as a long time Saga player and GM I can tell you that it doesn't get any more chaotic than Pathfinder or v3.5.
In fact, because there are no full attacks and a lot less die rolling, it is often LESS chaotic.
I was a long-term SWSE GM also, so I remain unconvinced that SE didn't have a tendency to degrade into a high-level reaction contest. Especially the more Jedi that were introduced (I rebuke, I rebuke your rebuke, I deflect, I deflect and redirect, I deflect that redirect, ad nauseum).
-Skeld
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Except they make the time between actual turns even longer. So for players whose characters don't have interrupting spells the problem is even worse. Powers that make the play experience better for one player and worse for the rest of the table are just not good for the game.All the more reason, than, for Paizo to release a ton of immediate actions not just for magic but for combatants as well. One of the very few things I give 4E credit for is their introduction to a host of immediate actions (aka interrupts) with all their classes.
This is also one of the complaints I've heard about 4e.
I was a long-term SWSE GM also, so I remain unconvinced that SE didn't have a tendency to degrade into a high-level reaction contest. Especially the more Jedi that were introduced (I rebuke, I rebuke your rebuke, I deflect, I deflect and redirect, I deflect that redirect, ad nauseum).
-Skeld
Seeing as how that mirrored the movies, novels, and comics perfectly, I don't see it as a problem. You're also exaggerating a bit.
Such things never went on "ad nauseum." Rebuke, for example, could be used by either party only once before it effected everyone.
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I was a long-term SWSE GM also, so I remain unconvinced that SE didn't have a tendency to degrade into a high-level reaction contest. Especially the more Jedi that were introduced (I rebuke, I rebuke your rebuke, I deflect, I deflect and redirect, I deflect that redirect, ad nauseum).
-Skeld
Seeing as how that mirrored the movies, novels, and comics perfectly, I don't see it as a problem. You're also exaggerating a bit.
Such things never went on "ad nauseum." Rebuke, for example, could be used by either party only once before it effected everyone.
The game mechanics hardly matched the movies/novels/comics perfectly. However, the proliferation of reaction interrupts was the biggest problem with SWSE.
-Skeld
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As a spell to stop you getting crushed by falling rocks, Emergency Force Sphere is great. The problem with it is really the phrase 'As wall of force...', because Wall of Force blocks breath weapons and spells and is immune to Dispel Magic.
You can see the thinking behind the design of Emergency Force Sphere - it's a Resilient Sphere, but only half of one, and smaller, can't be cast at range, and only lasts one tenth the time... surely all that adds up to reducing the casting action from a standard action to an immediate action, right? Well... not really, and for all the reasons people have already listed. Reducing the duration doesn't really reduce the combat power, just the overall utility in out of combat situations. Only being a half-sphere seems to leave you a little more vulnerable, but players being players don't take long to twig that taking an Earth Elemental Improved Familiar means you can let the little chap Earth Glide in and out whilst delivering touch spells for you, or just summon Earth Elementals (or similar) and send them to attack - so that 'limit' can be handily turned into a big advantage.
Emergency Force Sphere is also, unlike Resilient Sphere, still immune to Dispel Magic, like a regular Wall of Force.
Making the duration 'Concentration, up to a maximum of 1 round per level' would help to balance the thing quite a bit, IMHO.
On the other hand, it does more for a Sorcerer than a Wizard, and those guys need all the help they can get these days - so viva la Emergency Force Sphere! ;p
All of the defenses you listed above depend upon either luck (die rolls) or prescience. EFS depends upon having a 4th level slot. Which do you think is more reliable?
That depends on whether I still have 4th level spell slots, or another EFS prepared. AC, saves, immunities, SR just are. The rogue's redirect ability is only usable once a day but requires no luck or prescience and is a free action. My point isn't that EFS doesn't have advantages, but that it has disadvantages too, and especially that its ability to counter attacks of various sorts is by no means unique.
I was saying, perhaps a solution for immediate defense spells would be to take up ones turn. For example, if the opponent won initiative and you used EFS, but then couldn't perform a standard action when your turn came around.
That wouldn't work that way. You can't use Immediate actions when you're flatfooted, so if your opponent won initiative, you wouldn't be able to use EFS until after his turn.
Interestingly, this makes EFS unusable in situations listed in the spell description (avalanches, floods, and ambushes).
And for what it's worth, EFS in particular already kind of works that way unless you want to sit in it for Caster level rounds, since it's a standard action to dismiss. (Ok, you could summon medium earth elementals while you're waiting for the duration to expire... yay. Or you could buff until you're ready to pop out and killsteal, I suppose.)
Emergency Force Sphere is also, unlike Resilient Sphere, still immune to Dispel Magic, like a regular Wall of Force.
Making the duration 'Concentration, up to a maximum of 1 round per level' would help to balance the thing quite a bit, IMHO.
I agree with most of your post even if I think sending your poor familiar with half your hit points out to die is probably a bad idea (but I'm a softie). I think the sphere should be vulnerable to dispels (don't cast WoF so I didn't realise it wasn't) but I'm afraid I have to keep on insisting that the longer duration that needs to be dismissed is part of the drawback. It also makes it less good for its "intended" purpose (avalanches and such) because you can't teleport out of it unless you have a quickened ddoor or quickened teleport.
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I agree with most of your post even if I think sending your poor familiar with half your hit points out to die is probably a bad idea (but I'm a softie)...
Well, you can send him out with touch spells to buff your friends (hopefully they won't be killing him!), but besides that, the lil' dude can Earth Glide - he just attacks from the square below the bad guys. Sure, they can ready an action to hit him if he happens to pop his hands up... but then that's them tied up doing nothing for the turn, so it's a win / win!
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That wouldn't work that way. You can't use Immediate actions when you're flatfooted, so if your opponent won initiative, you wouldn't be able to use EFS until after his turn.
I don't think this is the case. This also breaks feather fall, the premier immediate action spell.
Too lazy to dig through the rules but it is certainly not the way 99% of GMs use immediate actions (and feather fall in particular).
That wouldn't work that way. You can't use Immediate actions when you're flatfooted, so if your opponent won initiative, you wouldn't be able to use EFS until after his turn.I don't think this is the case. This also breaks feather fall, the premier immediate action spell.
Too lazy to dig through the rules but it is certainly not the way 99% of GMs use immediate actions (and feather fall in particular).
I agree with you, but he's right (not that I run into immediate action spells that often, and you'd think I would):
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Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.
Which gets us into the territory of "how far do you fall in a round?" in regards to feather fall. Though to be more accurate, it should be "how far do you fall in a round before it's your turn?"
I seem to recall it being something like 600 feet in the first round.
Huh. That's kind of funny, essentially the most common thing I see feather fall used for is out of combat pit traps (when you are flat footed).
This may be the most common house-ruled item in the game (and most people don't know it).
So you are one of those people who would rule that everyone is flat-footed against all traps and thus all traps with attack rolls always attack flat-footed AC.
I'm not entirely certain that was the intent of the developers as an out of combat trap wouldn't be using the initiative rules anyways.
In the end, there is no evidence either way (that I'm aware of).
Huh. That's kind of funny, essentially the most common thing I see feather fall used for is out of combat pit traps (when you are flat footed).
This may be the most common house-ruled item in the game (and most people don't know it).
So you are one of those people who would rule that everyone is flat-footed against all traps and thus all traps with attack rolls always attack flat-footed AC.
I'm not entirely certain that was the intent of the developers as an out of combat trap wouldn't be using the initiative rules anyways.
In the end, there is no evidence either way (that I'm aware of).
Good point.
Without looking it up (because, ironically, I'm trying to get out of work), I'd say I'd rule that if you're surprised by the trap, you are flat-footed.
But now I will have to try to figure it out. Curse you, Ravingdork! :-)
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Huh. That's kind of funny, essentially the most common thing I see feather fall used for is out of combat pit traps (when you are flat footed).
This may be the most common house-ruled item in the game (and most people don't know it).
So you are one of those people who would rule that everyone is flat-footed against all traps and thus all traps with attack rolls always attack flat-footed AC.
I'm not entirely certain that was the intent of the developers as an out of combat trap wouldn't be using the initiative rules anyways.
In the end, there is no evidence either way (that I'm aware of).
You do realize that the phrase "One of those people" is fairly confrontational and aggressive? Just mentioning it because you tend to use wording like that a lot and it's likely part of why you think people pick on you. You use confrontational wording and they get their backs up.
Personally, I just roll the dice and tell the players what the attack roll is and they let me know if it hit.
I've never seen initiative rolled for a trap or avalanche or rockslide, so I wouldn't apply the flat-footed condition in those circumstances.
Avalanches and rockslides aren't particularly hard to notcie or see coming, so being flat-footed against them shouldn't really come into play. Otherwise, you play the entire game 'seeing' combatants who aren't there and striving to roll initiative to avoid being flat-footed, and then losing initiative checks to Dex 0 inanimate objects. Ugh.
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I had a GM for a 3.5 game who hated immediate action spells for exactly the reason J.J. stated -- they interrupt the flow of the game. He'd start resolving some spell that bad guy had cast, and then someone (i.e. me) would say "nuh-uh, I cast this spell instead and ruin it". After a couple of times of that, he got a little peeved. I can't say I blamed him.
I gotta say that
1) A GM shouldn't get upset because an NPC was foiled. It sounds like he really needs to take a step back and meditate on the difference between real life and the game for a moment.2) I'd actually like to see more swift and immediate actions for more people. Not just spellcasters, but for everyone. Here are some examples of things I'd like to see (and am currently working out for implementation in my own games).
- More Dynamic Combat: Abilities like Step-up, Sidestep-Charge, and other reactionary abilities make combat more dynamic. I'd like to see more of them, including options for parrying, or gaining immediate benefits or counters against a specific threat (such as having someone cast an AoE spell and you have an immediate action to dive for cover to try and flee the AoE or get to cover for that +4 save bonus).
- More Counters or Power-Ups: I'd like to see some good swift actions in addition to immediate actions. I'd like to see certain special attacks shy away from this "one attack" standard. For example, the Vital Strike line of feats would actually be worth a crap to PCs (as opposed to monsters) if activated on a single attack that round as a swift action (Ergo the Barbarian can full attack, the Monk can Spring Attack, and everyone gets their vital Strike, but only on one attack which they declare).
Likewise, it would be very nice to have some options for high level warrior types that helped even the playing field at higher levels. By the time you're 6th level, you're already beyond the mortal standard of reality, so by 11th level, you should be pulling off fantastic levels of skill and ability. "Ex" abilities can defy reasoning, y'know.
I've been thinking of making such options feats (some of them scaling), but I've been toying around with alternatives. However, here's an example of the kinds of things I'd like to see personally.
Shield Reflect (Combat)
With the interjection of your shield and a powerful burst of will, you can redirect spells targeted at you back at their casters.
Prerequisites: Iron Will, Shield Focus, Base Attack +11
Benefit: As long as you are wielding a heavy shield or tower shield, you may attempt to reflect a spell targeted at you as an immediate action. Until the beginning of your next turn, you are treated as being under the effects of a spell turning spell, except the number of spell levels you can reflect is equal to 4 + 1/4th your Base Attack bonus (6 at 11th level, 7 at 12th level, 8 at 16th level, and 9 at 20th level).
Unstoppable Charge (Combat)
Calling on your indomitable warrior spirit, you can break free of constraints to carry the fight to your enemy.
Prerequisites: Step Up, Nimble Moves, Acrobatic Steps, Base Attack +11
Benefit: When declaring a charge action, you may use a swift-action to treat yourself as being under the benefits of a freedom of movement effect until the end of your turn.
Shield Thrash (Combat)
You can bash an opponent with your shield, knocking them senseless.
Prerequisites: Shield Focus, Improved Shield Bash, Base Attack +6
Benefit: When making a shield bash attack, you may use a swift action to attempt to disrupt your opponent. If the shield attack hits, the opponent must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your level + your strength modifier) or become staggered for 1 round.
Special: If you also have the Deflect Arrows feat, you can reflect ray and ranged touch spells and spell-like abilities as well, even though spell turning normally doesn't.
Diving Evasion (Combat)
You can dive for cover when others are standing still.
Prerequisite: Evasion class feature
Benefit: When you would make a Reflex saving throw that would benefit from your Evasion class feature, you may attempt to move up to one half your speed to reach cover or even dive out of the affected area. This movement provokes attacks as normal. If you end your movement behind cover, you receive benefits of having cover when making your saving throw (cover provides a +4 bonus on Reflex saves, while total cover blocks most burst effects entirely). If you actually leave the area of the effect, you are treated as being outside the area of effect when the ability was used (thus leaving the area of a fireball spell is not affected at all, for example).
Special: If you have the Improved Evasion class feature, you can move up to your full speed when using Diving Evasion.
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I would actually love to see combats that worked like this...
Round 1: Wizard drops a black tentacles spell on the party and then follows with a swift-action grease spell for good measure.
The fighter declares are charge and uses a swift-action to break free from the black tentacles and grease to rush up to the enemy wizard. The fighter attempts to strike the wizard with his sword, but takes out a mirror image instead.
Round 2: The wizard takes a 5ft step back, and casts hold person on the Fighter. The fighter immediately uses Shield Reflect and bounces the spell back at the wizard who makes his save. The wizard then pops his own swift-action to pop up a resilient sphere type effect for a few rounds, to protect him from the Fighter while he shifted back to the offensive.
Round 3: The party's sorcerer escapes the black tentacles and casts greater dispel magic on the wizard in front of the Fighter, attempting to bring down his shield. The wizard's shield comes down.
The wizard moves flies into the air and casts maximized meteor swarm or some similar equivalent at the party (using a metamagic rod perhaps). The rogue dives out of the AoE as it's coming down, avoiding it entirely while the rest of the party brace for impact.
The Fighter uses his winged boots to charge through the air at the wizard and closes his eyes to make use of his Blind-Fight feat against the wizard using the Mirror Images. He strikes at the Wizard and uses his shield to attempt to knock the wizard silly, and lands the hit. The wizard fails his Fortitude save and become staggered.
Round 4: The sorcerer casts dispel magic and cancels the wizard's fly spell, causing him to drop like a rock. The wizard immediately casts feather fall to land to safety.
The Wizard thinks about trying to blast the fighter with a save or suck spell, but realizes that might be too risky at the moment, because he might attempt to toss it back, so he instead opts to cast greater invisibility on himself instead.
The fighter, realizing the wizard was staggered knows the wizard probably didn't move far from were he was when he landed and casted the spell, so the fighter charges from the air down next to the wizard. He then uses his Blind-Fight feat to bash the wizard again, hitting the invisible wizard with his shield, staggering him, and knocking him on the ground via some of his other shield feats.
Round 5: The sorcerer casts glitterdust at whatever the Fighter is attacking and reveals the wizard.
The wizard, getting very much annoyed with the Fighter, takes a 5ft step back and casts quickened freedom of movement and dimension door to get away from the Fighter.
The Fighter uses a magic item to use dimension door to jump next to the wizard (who is now going a bit crazy because this Fighter is on him like white on rice) and ends his turn.
Round 6: The wizard withdraws up to his 60ft fly speed into the air, and then casts quickened dispel magic on the Fighter's boots of flying, and turns them off for 3 rounds.
The party's sorcerer uses telekinesis and hurls the party's rogue at the wizard and inflicts a bit of damage with his rogue-doken, and the rogue has his own boots of flying, and so he ends up adjacent to the wizard at the start of his turn. The rogue full-attacks the wizard with a spell-storing dagger, and dispels the wizard's overland flight spell. The wizard plummets.
Having not bothered to prepare feather fall twice, the wizard drops like a bad habit, and slams into the ground near the fighter. At this point, the fighter jumps the wizard and starts pounding him with his shield again, resulting in the wizard getting knocked out.
NOTE: These feats haven't been playtested yet, and I think that the Shield Reflect needs a drawback which I've not determined yet (perhaps waiting 5 rounds between uses, kind of like Binders from the Tome of Magic had to do with their really good abilities).
It's just a hypothetical example of what I would see as a very dynamic encounter.
You do realize that the phrase "One of those people" is fairly confrontational and aggressive?
You are absolutely right, sorry. I will be more careful with my wording in the future.
Well done Ashiel. I would just make existing feats scale, but for the current version of the game your feats are awesome.
Let see if UC has something comparable.
Holy necro, Batman!
What? I call shenanigans on that. You're absolutely abusing the word cheesy. Is the spell a bit overpowered for its level and potentially system abusing? Yes. Is a character throwing up a quick shield of force to deflect an enemy charge or an avalanche actually conceptually cheesy? No, not at all. It's something we see in fantasy and comic books all the time. And I'm not sure why we wouldn't find some way to emulate it. I mean, really, the same wizards who are creating demiplanes and summoning hordes of elementals have never thought to make a spell that lets you parry an attack or throw up a quick obstacle to interrupt an enemy? That's just crap.one of my favorite spells is an immediate action. emergency force sphere from the cheliax companionAnd it is eminently cheesy!
I want to reply to this specific statement: ''And I'm not sure why we wouldn't find some way to emulate it.''
The thing is, there's already a way to emulate the ''Gandalf deflects the balrog attack with an Emergency Force Sphere'' outside of immediate action spells: it's called readied actions. The wizard traveling in a dangerous environment could ready the casting of EFS every round and he would still have a move action left to move around.
I'm not against immediate action spells per se, but such spells should be few and far between and they should have an instantaneous or 1 round duration if usable during a battle.
Can't ready actions outside of combat. I feel that if a cave-in happened, And the wizard had a wall of force or something prepared, I'd let him roll initiative against the falling stone. Or maybe a knowledge(dungeoneering) check to act in time.
Can't ready actions outside of combat.
Can you provide rule references for this?
