| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Loosing spell recall and not getting improved spell recall at 11th is a huge hit.I'm not sure that hexes make up for this loss either. Using a hex is a standard action and I don't think the magus has anything that allows one to use a hex in spell combat (or am I wrong?)
Likewise I wasn't sure on the focus for magic missile, as I would think that a more touch driven spell would work better here so as to give better melee options.
Aren't the DCs, etc based off of class level rather than character level?
-James
These are very valid points, here is my feelings on them:
1. Spell Recall is more of a crutch and power drain than actually useful -- a magus has little to actually spend wealth on... except pearls of power. Pearls of power tend to stay rather cheap for the levels of spells that the magus has access too at the points he has access to them. Also spell recall eats up points -- when you first get it using spell recall is going to give you back a single action for the cost of 1~3 arcane points. Augmenting your weapon will take a single point and give you 10 rounds of supplemental power and arcane accuracy can affect any action you are taking to attack with (and all attacks in that round). As such pearls of power are vastly more useful and cheaper on your limited resources.
2. The magus has plenty to do on any round he can take a full round action. He also has plenty to do with his swift actions -- what he lacks is useful things to do with his standard actions -- during the rounds he can't actually full attack and has to move, or is facing enemies he can't actually physically get too. Hexes give him unlimited abilities that don't strain resources and having substantial impact on combats. Compared to simply blasting or simply taking a standard action attack Hexes offer a better alternative. They also help ensure whatever later action you take is going to be more effective.
3. The magus can have an issue with effectiveness. Even with perfect intelligence his DCs will only be good due to spell levels. While he has several nice spells that don't rely on save throws these tend to be of limited actual use without full attacks or specific targets. He suffers the same way with physical attacks due to the medium BAB and limited bonus feats. The best way to overcome this is to do what you can to increase the effectiveness of each action he takes. By lowering their AC you increase your likelihood to hit by 10~20% -- at any level that's good. If instead you hit their save throws you are more likely to get the effects you want out of your other spells. Either way the benefit is tangible -- even if they make their save throw you still help all your allies out with this too unlike a missed attack or spell that fails to connect. As such evil eye is a wonderful choice for standard action activity for the magus.
Again each type I played my magus the thing that struck me the most was that yes -- I was awesome when everything went my way (meaning I could get a full attack) -- but the problem was getting there --
everything that frustrates people about the full attack with a fighter applies to the magus too. In order to be successful you must get into position to full attack otherwise the standard magus is simply a wizard (with lower level spells and DCs) or another medium BAB attacker.
Taking hexes is a game changer in this regard for the magus -- you give them a reason to want to get to you (good so you can full attack), you have a direct impact on the effectiveness of future actions and your allies actions. You also improve your stamina -- Hexes are unlimited therefore you can always fall back on using them when you might normally 'waste' a spell instead saving the spell for a time when it can be more effectively applied.
In those last regards it is actually more useful than spell recall as it is always available and always an option except when you really want to do your thing.
In closing:
Taking hexcrafter is actually more about subconsciously shaping your options in a way to help you better choose in the heat of the moment what to do. It takes away the edge of desperation to close immediately, and it gives you a much larger resource pool increasing your stamina. It saves your spells and gives your enemies a reason to want to close on you (something you want and is better for you -- if they close they'll get one attack before you full attack and spell combat, if you close they'll get a full attack before you can spell combat... if they don't simply move away). It doesn't actually cost you an ability since that ability is easily replaced with cheap equipment (of which you don't need much of).
I think it depends on play in many ways James -- for me Melee is something the Magus strives for but like a melee based fighter is constantly confounded at achieving for any length of time.
I find that 9,000 a pop is still rather cheap -- but for society play it might not be... I don't play society so I am unsure. At 11th level you have 9k for a cloak, some 13k for a staff, 12k for armoring (including rings and what not), and 16k for your headband. That's 40k of your wealth.
Now vampiric touch is nice, but for me it is entirely too limited. Single opponent, decent (if not great) damage, some temporary points that aren't going to matter at the end of the fight (unless something else comes up within the hour), SR, and honestly -- for me perhaps more importantly not something I'm going to do every round of a fight.
Yes you can't use hexes while using spell combat -- that is the point of the hexes -- you don't want to use them while using spell combat -- you've got plenty of things to do then. You want to use them while getting into position to spell combat.
For me a key ingredient to this entire mix is to remember the very important lessons of the fighter: Never assume you can get and maintain melee for any length of time, and always have something else to do that is effective.
Vampiric touch is useful -- once a fight... maybe. Otherwise use something that will actually do something other than eat all your resources and blow your usefulness.
You have to close or force them to close -- vampiric touch isn't going to do that. Spell recall isn't going to do that.
Spell recall is going to use up more resources than it is worth -- a single spell recall even at 1 point for a third level spell is getting you one round whereas a good use of weapon enhancing will last the entire fight or a single use of arcane accuracy can end the need to continue fighting. Vampiric touch simply isn't going to do that no matter how many times you cast it.
|
Stuff
Loosing spell recall and not getting improved spell recall at 11th is a huge hit.I'm not sure that hexes make up for this loss either. Using a hex is a standard action and I don't think the magus has anything that allows one to use a hex in spell combat (or am I wrong?)
Likewise I wasn't sure on the focus for magic missile, as I would think that a more touch driven spell would work better here so as to give better melee options.
Aren't the DCs, etc based off of class level rather than character level?
-James
I understand the point you are making that Pearls 1 are really equal to Spell recall in effect they seriously lack in the efficiency department which is what really draws me to this (and the Witch) class. Trading a swift action to recall a spell for a full action to recall that spell (Move action to get the Pearl + standard to use it) just seems a painful tradeoff to me. Add to that you are talking about spending at least 1K gp per level to replace what you can do with Spell recall (actually more like between 7-30K just on pearls) until you hit 11th and finally get it.
As for the lack of choices with a standard action or what to do when closing in I'm not understanding that. the default for me seems to be Spellstrike, cast shocking grasp (or true strike or vampiric touch or etc.) via spellstrike, move in and take an attack and get that spell off then. You'll hit harder then nearly anyone on your first shot, you're in position to full attack if necessary.
I understand the point you are making that Pearls 1 are really equal to Spell recall in effect they seriously lack in the efficiency department which is what really draws me to this (and the Witch) class. Trading a swift action to recall a spell for a full action to recall that spell (Move action to get the Pearl + standard to use it) just seems a painful tradeoff to me. Add to that you are talking about spending at least 1K gp per level to replace what you can do with Spell recall (actually more like between 7-30K just on pearls) until you hit 11th and finally get it.As for the lack of choices with a standard action or what to do when closing in I'm not understanding that. the default for me seems to be Spellstrike, cast shocking grasp (or true strike or vampiric touch or etc.) via spellstrike, move in and take an attack and get that spell off then. You'll hit harder then nearly anyone on your first shot, you're in position to full attack if necessary.
to me I think it is an issue of play-style and group dynamic. I play a similar build to Abraham, If I was playing the dervish build I think I would be bored a lot of the time. We talked our way out of encounters and fights the DM set up for us. We conned and NPC into fighting an Orc champion in single combat so we didn't have to fight the whole clan, while we cheated and buffed our combatant and debuffed the Orc without notice. There has been one time where I have used an alpha strike, we play to see how little resources can we use on an encounter.
Neither build is better than the other, its just some games focus on different themes and play-styles.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
What does your post and James' post have in common? The assumption of melee. Please note that's what I keep coming back to.
And why in the heck do people feel like they must spell strike or spell combat in each round? Stop that -- yes it is a fun tool but it's a tool, don't fall into the trap of seeing only nails simply because you have a hammer.
So you move in... or do you?
The opponent now decides what happens. Sure you moved in -- however they get an action before you get to act again which means -- you've given them control of the situation. They can full attack you, or they can move away and use an ability, or grapple you -- a thousand different options that you don't want to happen. Instead draw them into you -- make them give you that control. Instead of giving them the full attack make them give the full attack to you by being the making them close -- it's a more powerful position for you and you'll take less damage.
Now as to spell recall versus pearls of power:
1. Spell Recall is nice -- but why in the heck are you using it in combat though? Honestly -- BAD. You have much better choices for what to do with your swift action and your arcane points than to waste them pulling back substandard touch attack spells.
2. Pearls of power are not for in combat use (I've said that enough I know) -- spell recall is an expensive pearl of power in that it eats up more resources that you are limited on.
3. Any round you are using spell recall is another round you aren't using arcane accuracy or arcane strike. Spell recall doesn't increase your damage -- it simply gives you an option to waste the spell again. IF you must have something going on your weapon at all times use chill touch or elemental touch. At least then you get a rider effect.
Actions and resource management:
The key to the magus is to remember the major lessons of the wizard (resource management) and the fighter (the trouble of getting full attacks and getting to melee).
Each round does not mean you should be spellstriking or using spell combat -- that's akin to nailing everything in the room because you have a hammer: Except your hammer is of limited use, will run out and you can't control the pace of enemies coming or encounters for the day.
So: Stop novaing. It's a waste -- it's overkill, and it's going to kill you in the long run.
Honestly if you can make it to level 4 you can make it to level 11 without spell recall -- and if you can make it to level 11 then you can make it to level 20.
Touch spells are nice and the magus can make good use of them: But like the wizard it should not be all you do. In practice you won't actually vampiric touch every round, you won't spellstrike in every round and you won't want to close to melee every time. You will want effective options. Spell Recall does not actually give you options -- it gives you a crutch to use mindless tactics over and over again -- while draining away your actual ability to do anything of consequence.
Look at it this way -- what are you spending your wealth on? It's not going to be some awesome magic weapon -- all you need is a staff and your abilities to boost it which you have many of. Armor and save throw bonuses are rather cheap. Stat boosts will eat some of your wealth... but honestly not as much as others might suggest. About all you really need is supplemental gear such as pearls of power.Before 11th level you probably won't actually use spell combat much. Either the monster will drop to a full attack or you'll be too far to full attack and close while casting a spell. Either way you are unlikely to really need to use much force in each encounter. Between encounters you use your pearls to regain spells -- until 10th level the most you'll need is a pearl of power (3rd level) which is 9,000 gp... (2nd level) is 4,000 and first level is 1,000gp. After level 11 spell recall isn't as useful due to the sheer number of points it uses up -- as an emergency option yes it is great -- but not one you should really rely on regularly.
I don't understand that argument. It is a ability the magus has why wouldn't I take full advantage of it. The typical fight will only require 1 use of the arcane pool ability to enhance the magus's weapon. The typical encounters per day should average about 4. That leaves several uses of the arcane pool potentially to play with. Out of many of the potential uses I see spell recall as top on the list of secondary uses. Once reaching 11th level the ability pretty much trumps any of the other magus arcana that you could select that use arcane pool for point efficiency vs effectiveness. Such as Dispelling strike vs Dispel magic, Hasted assault vs Haste spell, Pool strike vs Most Touch damage spells of 3rd level or lower.
My priority for equipment would be for stat boosting items over the higher level pearls of power. A head band of vast intelligence would be number one on my list since it enhances a number of my abilities and a belt that bumps my physical abilities would be a close second. Enhancing my primary weapon with spell storing.
Remember as a magus you need to respond to how the combat is going -- if the fighter is in a pickle back him up so he can bug out a minute. If the mooks or whatever needs to be blasted and the wizard is tied up with doing it assist the wizard with the blasting. Flank with the rogue.In many ways you are the more dynamic end of the bard -- where he assists with direct buffs and improving his allies making his value more passive you are the agressive assist unit.
So be the special forces you are -- show up and save everyone else's...
I can definitely see where your coming from on this.
At the end of the day our builds accomplish different things -- I'm not trying to put out huge amounts of DPR (I agree to do so you need to be casting regularly) -- instead I'm building for a more tactical play. If I'm going to be in a melee dominant role for a fight I'm more likely to use a polymorph for more strength bonus and reach.
Some key difference in our builds points to why each of our builds couldn't work with the other person's tactics:
1. I'm going with more intelligence -- I'm more likely to have 13~15 arcane points around level 12... which gives me more to use. I'm also going to have more spell slots meaning I need less recalls and pearls of power in comparison. (EDIT) Which means I'll likely have lower other numbers (especially with power attack) and need to use more points with arcane accuracy to ensure hitting more often.
2. Conversely you have a much higher Dex which requires more expensive armor -- my guy can get away with a chain shirt (maybe mithral) still around level 12 whereas you need the celestial armor to get the most out of your AC. This actually makes a huge difference in wealth expenditures (7k at level 11)
3. I'm less worried about my DPR -- that isn't my mission with my build. Instead I'm looking to effectively apply more battlefield control and buffing or debuffing then looking for places to put my damage in. You are looking more for ways to keep that DPR up because that is how you are contributing (and it is an effective means to do so). This also affects wealth by level since I'm more likely to simply cast haste whereas you are more likely to use the boots -- as such I wouldn't spend on the boots and you (obviously) will since if I'm casting the spell I won't need the boots as often.
4. I need different spells too. You mention using the shield spell -- one I'm obviously rarely going to use as a staff magus due to my much better shield bonus off of my staff. However I'm more likely to have polymorph spells active (or ready to cast) and use spells like pyrotechnics, dragon's breath, and the like.
5. Standard actions are where I've always seen the most issue with the magus... for you this obviously isn't true as you would simply force hook to close... I would rather go later in initiative and 'steal thunder' from my enemies (and allies) by applying my talents when they will cause an end instead of getting in first and letting others move to my pace.
|
|
What does your post and James' post have in common? The assumption of melee. Please note that's what I keep coming back to.
And why in the heck do people feel like they must spell strike or spell combat in each round? Stop that -- yes it is a fun tool but it's a tool, don't fall into the trap of seeing only nails simply because you have a hammer.
So you move in... or do you?
The opponent now decides what happens. Sure you moved in -- however they get an action before you get to act again which means -- you've given them control of the situation. They can full attack you, or they can move away and use an ability, or grapple you -- a thousand different options that you don't want to happen. Instead draw them into you -- make them give you that control. Instead of giving them the full attack make them give the full attack to you by being the making them close -- it's a more powerful position for you and you'll take less damage.
Now as to spell recall versus pearls of power:
1. Spell Recall is nice -- but why in the heck are you using it in combat though? Honestly -- BAD. You have much better choices for what to do with your swift action and your arcane points than to waste them pulling back substandard touch attack spells.
2. Pearls of power are not for in combat use (I've said that enough I know) -- spell recall is an expensive pearl of power in that it eats up more resources that you are limited on.
3. Any round you are using spell recall is another round you aren't using arcane accuracy or arcane strike. Spell recall doesn't increase your damage -- it simply gives you an option to waste the spell again. IF you must have something going on your weapon at all times use chill touch or elemental touch. At least then you get a rider effect.
Actions and resource management:
The key to the magus is to remember the major lessons of the wizard (resource management) and the fighter (the trouble of getting full attacks and...
The assumption of combat was warranted since that is really the only time you will ever need to worry about Free vs. Standard vs. Full actions. Any other time it happens when you want it too. Also playing a Magus is different then playing a wizard but only in combat, outside of it you are both totally correct and you SHOULD be focusing on other methods of solving the problem.
However we are discussing martial characters here, they have sacrificed the power to make the laws of physics dance at their whim so they can hit things hard and make them die (or wish they where dead) so lets address that mindset first.Back to point: Spell Recall grants you instant access to all your favorite spells to go with your advantage of action economy so you can make use of them when you need them most to do the job you choose: combat. Pearls run totally opposite of that and take away that advantage and reduce you back to slow actions like everyone who ISN'T a Magus.
Now I'm not saying that every choice should be weighed on whether it's useful in battle but if the choice is going to make you worse in a fight it should at least be looked at critically to see if the exchange is worth it.
This archetype swaps out a swift action for flexible spell use (only need to mem a spell once now) for a standard action to do a single, specific effect. One can be used more often but less flexible, the other less often be more flexible.
Is a single hex worth that lose of flexibility is the question I am asking?
(Yes I know it lets you take other hexes but that's at the cost of an arcana or a feat. The only thing you get for this archetype is you are trading Spell Recall for one hex at 4th level and the POSSIBILITY of another later at additional cost)
I would say the answer to that is more complex than you want it to be.
The archetype doesn't lose spell recall -- it delays access. A huge difference. It also gives stamina and options for abilities that are (in my opinion) better than most of the arcana available. This adds weight to the hexcrafter's side since it gives better options later too. Another complication is what hex you take -- prehensile hair allows you to use metamagic rods while using spell combat -- which is almost invaluable especially if you want to cast quickened spells or SoS/SoD spells (for persistent spell). Evil Eye is one I would take early of course but prehensile hair would most likely be first -- its a natural attack, it offers metamagic rods -- it could even be used to hold a shield for you (probably mithral of course to get rid of spell failure) which could be an additional 6 points on your AC without a spell.
The saying the later hexes come at additional cost is a bit... misleading -- after all that cost is... maximize once a day? Really?
And again you don't lose spell recall which can be replace with an item (by the way you don't have to hold the pearl of power to use it so it's only a standard action to use one).
And it's a question of what that effect is -- for me having the regular ability to sap my foe's ability to hit avoid a hit or avoid a spell is worth a lot for a guy can have trouble in all three areas -- so it isn't a 'single effect' like damage is but a choice of several effects.
You are right you don't lose spell recall but more importantly you lose improved spell recall. I believe that taking hexcrafter for the magus can expand his potential usefulness but claiming recall is a waste is a subjective opinion not fact. For your hexcrafter spell recall will not be as useful but to claim that it is a waste of a action or assume that the only spells that anyone would ever bother to recall are one hit strike spells is not taking full accounting of the ability especially for non hexcrafters. I can certainly see using improved spell recall to make sure I always have haste when I want it. Buffing spells can be as useful to a magus as direct damage spells heck even more useful and most last for mins per level. Memorizing bulls strength or true strike can be about as useful as arcane accuracy for the point use IMHO.
You are right: From the perspective of my build it is of limited use -- personally I don't think its that great overall -- but I never claimed this was anything but my point of view.
Spell recall at low levels is subjectively not that great, considering the resources used to power it and what you are getting in return. At higher level improved spell recall is better for some forms of magus -- however that doesn't mean it's great for all forms or that even then it makes up for what can be gained through the hexcrafter.
Remember hexcrafter is giving you abilities that you cannot have including an extra limb (of sorts) without multiclassing. Currently that and evil eye are two abilities that cannot be replaced with items at all. Spell recall can be, and at levels 4~10 rather cheaply.
I don't think true strike has much of any use for the magus compared to arcane accuracy due to the increased casting time, decreased length of use and such -- the only time I would even consider using it is if I somehow know that a creature is in a specific square that I can melee attack with spell combat but has a miss chance that I want to completely avoid -- even then I would rather rely on blind fighting.
|
|
For the focus of your build I can definitely see the that Spell Recall would be of limited use, and I'm not doubting the effectiveness of it for the purposes you describe.
I am merely trying to understand in a widest case possible if trading Spell Recall for Hexes is worth the loss of flexibility of instant recall.
I love evil eye and prehensile hair is rapidly becoming my number 3 Hex (it'd be higher but the limit on daily usage makes me rank it lower), but whether it's worth my int + half my level in extra spells per day is questionable.
Delaying something till 11th level puts it out of reach for over half your career and reduces it to maybe 10-15% of your characters play life is close enough to loss for me but YMMV.
And how you choose to interpret the cost it is still an opportunity cost, maybe my build requires that arcana to work. Doesn't matter it's still an option I can no longer take because of this.
edit: I refuse to take advantage of a poor wording on the pearl by using it without pulling it from my bag. I'm a fan of optimization but that's a degree of cheese I couldn't bring myself to do.
That's honestly not poor wording -- it is specifically supposed to work that way and checking in the magic item usage guidelines confirms this. Much like the luckstone you don't have to hold it only have it on you. This is in fact how it has operated on purpose since advanced I can assure you (having the AD&D DMG firmly in hand while typing this -- not easy).
You could (if you like and I do) use pearls of power in your jewelry (as earrings) or on the chain of your necklace (even if it is magical), or on the hemline of your robes -- even as beads on a snood.
Now would I always take hexcrafter? No, absolutely not -- I would not call it a must have -- but would I take it when I'm playing a high intelligence magus (as opposed to a strength or dexterity primary)? There is a good possibility I would.
I mentioned both bulls strength and true strike together because I understand that long term to hit is as important as short term to hit ability. The way you talk I get the impression that to you the only thing that is worth using the arcane pool for is weapon enhancement and arcane accuracy.
Using true strike would be important for magus builds that concentrate on maneuvers when you want to trip larger creatures for example. Casting true strike as the last action in a full attack and then using spellstrike next round with your most powerful whack a mole spell. If you have a spell storing weapon you can get immediate gratification. Are a couple of uses I can see for true strike.
I'm confused on the spell storing bit -- a spell storing weapon only casts its spell on what it hits.
In the case of my build -- yes those are the only real uses of the arcane pool.
In the case of other builds -- depends on the build -- personally I think the enhancing option should always be considered first -- but beyond that some builds do not need arcane accuracy (for whatever reason) I don't think there are many good uses for the arcane pool yet. Spell recall is a decent use when first acquired (though not great) improved spell recall is a much better use and one of the few things I would use my points on as a normal magus -- not with my build however.
Would I trade away earlier access to spell recall and all use of improved spell recall for hexcrafter? Yes -- with some builds.
I was indicating that you can have your go to whack a mole spell precast in the spell storing weapon when using true strike to be able to get immediate use out of the spell in a fight when using true strike to hit high AC enemies.
I had originally considered hexcrafter when I was building my Magus but when everything was said and done I decided to go with a normal magus.
I plan to use intensified shocking grasp magical lineaged down to first level for my consistent heavy hitting power in melee.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
“Remember as a magus you need to respond to how the combat is going -- if the fighter is in a pickle back him up so he can bug out a minute. If the mooks or whatever needs to be blasted and the wizard is tied up with doing it assist the wizard with the blasting. Flank with the rogue.
In many ways you are the more dynamic end of the bard -- where he assists with direct buffs and improving his allies making his value more passive you are the aggressive assist unit.
So be the special forces you are -- show up and save everyone else's bacon after they have committed to what they are doing. Truthfully the magus can actually benefit from going last in an encounter because it is in such a position that he shines -- as he can play clean up very effectively.
The key to the magus is to remember the major lessons of the wizard (resource management) and the fighter (the trouble of getting full attacks and getting to melee).
Each round does not mean you should be spellstriking or using spell combat -- that's akin to nailing everything in the room because you have a hammer: Except your hammer is of limited use, will run out and you can't control the pace of enemies coming or encounters for the day.
So: Stop novaing. It's a waste -- it's overkill, and it's going to kill you in the long run.
Honestly if you can make it to level 4 you can make it to level 11 without spell recall -- and if you can make it to level 11 then you can make it to level 20.
Touch spells are nice and the magus can make good use of them: But like the wizard it should not be all you do. In practice you won't actually vampiric touch every round, you won't spellstrike in every round and you won't want to close to melee every time. You will want effective options. Spell Recall does not actually give you options -- it gives you a crutch to use mindless tactics over and over again -- while draining away your actual ability to do anything of consequence.”
I think I am going to add a section called “how to manage your magus,” based off these quotes and others like it. Despite differing opinions presented by everyone on the viability of a hexcrafter, we can all agree that the magus is a class with limited resources and all of them need to managed correctly -- meaning its probably something that should be included in a guide on how to play them.
“I'm less worried about my DPR -- that isn't my mission with my build. Instead I'm looking to effectively apply more battlefield control and buffing or debuffing then looking for places to put my damage in.”
The statement about battlefield control is something I agree with wholeheartedly that was included in the guide. Because the magus is such a versatile class, he’s not pidgeon-holed like a fighter is each combat. He’s not going to open with a move + vital strike each fight, he’ll be able to adapt to what is needed. If he’s in a group of melee bruisers he can open with mass enlarge or haste, rather than force hook charging and giving the opposition a closer, squishier target.
“Which leaves just 11k to spare and now I need pearl 1s for shocking grasps, shields and the like.”
If you are preparing Intensified Shocking Grasps, would they require pearl 2s? Or may I presume that you have a magical lineage in mind :P
“There are actually a LOT of "right" choices and path for a magus, which is rather a good thing. The last thing we want for a game design is a "cookie cutter" build.”
This just made me think about a friend of mine who played a samurai in 3.0. His character was worse than everyone elses by miles, but he played it up and to this day when I think about that game I get all misty eyed thinking about his toon.
From what you posted, the idea that there are a lot of right choices for a class is some zen stuff, my friend - and is something that can lead to the most unique characters out there. That said, we should still enjoy lively discussions about game and class mechanics, and finding abilities that help energize or define a build.
"And this would hold more water if the magus expressly didn't have a 3rd level (improved spell recallable) spell that lets them essentially pounce.”
Albiet at a shorter range, with a heavier resource draw, but still a solid point. And this point brings me to weigh in on the hexcrafter discussion. Since combat generally starts where PCs have 1 round, maybe 2 to buff before enemies close, having something to do that doesn't drain limited resources is a boon (point to Abraham). When the swords are clanging and your standard frontliners (meat shield + rogue + summons + pets) have engaged the targets is when I would force hook in, meaning that until that window arises I will need something to do with my standard action. In most cases, it will be a spell. However, given the limited spell selection and the required variables to make any spell viable (distance, grouping, etc), having the option to debuff in exchange for missing out spell recall may not be the worst thing ever.
I'd wager that the most fair match up would be to look at a list of critera that would prevent you from either casting a spell or closing to melee on your turn, and then compare the frequency of those occurance to the size of your spell pool. If there is a high frequency (a majority of your combats are against million armed tentacle monsters with a CMD of 45 and grab/swallow), then a hexcrafter is more viable. If there is a low frequency (a majority of your combats are against medium sized creatures that are just asking to be charge/full attacked/spellstriked), then having spell recall would be better.
Also, I think that pearls are a very powerful and cheap item for any magus build, so I don't know if their presence can be used to ignore the viability of spell recall. You could use them to supplement it, but I believe that having both really gives magi the shifting combat viability that really lets them shine.
Level of the adventure will really play into it too. Pass level 13 the hexes are going to have a higher DC (and be supernatural) which can give them an edge in setting you up against monsters with good/decent save throws, AC or attack bonuses (with regards to evil eye) also a "grin and bear it" type magus might really like retribution for it's battlefield control and "sour grapes" approach. At the same time if you are in the level 7~13 range (like PFS is) with more restrictions on what you can get with your WBL then spell recall will look a lot better.
However higher level also means you have more spells available (both in slot and level) which favors... I'm not sure honestly. On the one hand the more you can cast the less you might need the hexes, and on the other the more you can cast the less you might need improved spell recall. It could be safe to call that part a wash.
Something I meant to mention on the staff magus -- Something that can really change the dynamics of the archetype is if your GM will let you 'custom build' staves. Allowing it gives the staff magus a lot more flexibility and better choice on what staves to use. Without it many of the staff choices come across -- lackluster at best.
A second note on the staff magus archetype, and this one is rather important: The staff magus at level 10 can recharge any staff that has a magus spell in it regardless of the level of spells he can cast using the arcane pool. So if you have staff with wish, shield, acid arrow, wall of force etc (WHY?!?!?!? I don't know -- but for an extreme example stick with me) and it had no charges the staff the magus could recharge it in 10 days using arcane pool points.
In fact this could mean that the pathfinder savant could be a really great choice for a few levels simply to get a single healing spell on your list so you can recharge a staff of healing or life in your down time.
|
|
Well this is going towards an optimization guide..But it would be nice to see if ANYTHING multiclasses well with magus and if broad study is of ANY use, which honestly so far I think it is not.
-James
This may just be my opinion but making your first level Fighter and the rest Magus does not suck. Being able to grab Weapon Spec. right off the bat is nice and I discovered that Spell penetration doesn't actually require you to be a spellcaster, so you could still pick it up at 1st level if you're crazy like that.
|
|
This may just be my opinion but making your first level Fighter and the rest Magus does not suck. Being able to grab Weapon Spec. right off the bat is nice and I discovered that Spell penetration doesn't actually require you to be a spellcaster, so you could still pick it up at 1st level if you're crazy like that.
Well this is going towards an optimization guide..But it would be nice to see if ANYTHING multiclasses well with magus and if broad study is of ANY use, which honestly so far I think it is not.
-James
you need fighter level 4 to specialize
Mixing with bard could end up not sucking -- but it would be a very tricky build to get it to work.
Also as insane as it sounds a Magus/Cleric/Mystic Theurge works well.
here is a build that I'm working on based off of Abraham's for a game that is being rebooted. Please take a look and offer any advice please.
|
|
In my opinion magus might be a better dip for bard than the other way round. Three levels and you gain the ability to use spell combat with all your bard spells.
Ranger might be useful for some. Two levels of magus and he gets the ability to gain +2 on damage and attack rolls against one enemy per day (guide archetype), trapfinding (trapper archetype) and Power Attack, no matter how low his strength is (two-handed combat style).
In my opinion magus might be a better dip for bard than the other way round. Three levels and you gain the ability to use spell combat with all your bard spells.
Six levels... not three. Also bard spells are less caster level dependent as well as less DC dependent and bard class abilities are the same (though to a lesser extent).
At the point you are going six levels into magus might as well go 15~16. However the magician bard might be a nice choice for the dip as well (haven't really looked at it yet).
|
|
In my opinion magus might be a better dip for bard than the other way round. Three levels and you gain the ability to use spell combat with all your bard spells.Six levels... not three. Also bard spells are less caster level dependent as well as less DC dependent and bard class abilities are the same (though to a lesser extent).
At the point you are going six levels into magus might as well go 15~16. However the magician bard might be a nice choice for the dip as well (haven't really looked at it yet).
Ah, I didn't realize that Broad Study had a level requirement.
I think duelist would be a viable option as a PrC for the Dervish Magus.A bonus to AC as well as the ability to guard your friends is nice,among some other abilities.
It could be a very interesting choice for a dexterity magus. I would recommend close range as an arcana in such a situation and grabbing spells like acid splash and acid arrow which don't allow SR to help with boosting damage with spell combat.
Looking back to the conversation about the value of spell recall vs hexcrafter, Abraham Spalding brings up the point that spell recall is a crutch and that you shouldn't just be nova'ing with shocking grasp and using spell recall to get it back. The fact that I agree with him to some extent is why I like preferred spell (shocking grasp) so much for the magus. I know it is expensive because of the requirement, but I think it's undervalued in the guide a bit because the use that is being suggested for it is kind of backwards in my opinion. I don't see it as yet another way to be able to spam more shocking grasps, but as a way to gain more versatility by never memorizing SG.
Shocking grasp is a spell that is pretty much bread and butter for the magus, in that its kind of a default fallback attack. With preferred spell you can trade whichever other spell you think you might not need, and if you make a mistake, you can use spell recall to recover it. That way you can have a broader selection of utility spells.
Even without preferred spell I really like the versatility that spell recall gives because it gives you the option of memorizing more unique spells, and using spell recall to gain multiple casts if necessary.
Walter also makes a good point about using pearls and spell recall in tandem. To really gain the most out of your spells you can try to use whichever is most efficient for a given level. Once you have improved spell recall, using AP for 1st and 2nd level spells seems pretty wasteful, but one point for a 3rd level is pretty good, and two points for a 5th level is great, so if you try and buy pearls for levels 1, 2, and maybe 4, and use improved spell recall for 3 and 5, you can get a fairly obscene number of casts in a day, from a large selection of spells.
|
|
Oracle could be an interesting dip for the magus, especially the oracle of metal.
You become more maneuverable while wearing armor. You can move at your normal speed in medium armor that is made of metal. This does not grant proficiency in armor. At 5th level, whenever you are wearing metal armor, you reduce the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increase the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by your armor by 1. At 10th level, and again at 15th level, these bonuses increase by 1.
Your base speed increases by 10 feet. At 7th level, you gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls with a metal weapon in any round in which you move at least 10 feet. This bonus increases by +1 at 11th level, and every four levels thereafter. At 11th level, as a move action, you can maneuver your weapon to create a shield of whirling steel around yourself until the start of your next turn; non-incorporeal melee and ranged attacks against you have a 20% miss chance while the shield is active. You must be wielding a metal weapon to use this ability.
So, for one level of Oracle and a feat (Extra Revelation), you gain the ability to move 40 feet in a mithral fullplate.
|
|
I'm currently playing a Bladebound Magus and there's something I'm discussing with my GM, I hope you guys can help clear it out:
I'm currently level 5 and I want to know exactly how my arcane pool works when I attempt to add a weapon property to my black blade, if you can provide examples it would be great, as my GM is kind of stubborn and english is not our main language.
I'll try, although English isn't my first language either.
At 5th level, your black blade will have an enhancement bonus of +2. Your arcane pool ability allows you to add two points worth of enchantments on a weapon that already has an enhancement bonus of at least +1.So, you could for example increase the enhancement bonus by +2, making it a +4 weapon. Other options would include a +3 keen weapon, a +2 shocking burst weapon or +2 keen frost weapon.
On another note, Quickdraw might be a rather useful feat for the magus. With Quickdraw, you can don and remove a quickdraw light shield as a free action, allowing the magus to freely use spell combat on his turn and get a shield bonus when it's not his turn.
Thanks to STR Ranger for pointing this out.
Quickdraw Shield, Light Wooden or Steel: This light shield is specially crafted with a series of straps to allow a character proficient in shields to ready or stow it on his or her back quickly and easily. If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may don or put away a quickdraw shield as a swift action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw a light or one-handed weapon with one hand and a quickdraw shield with the other in the time it would normally take you to draw one weapon. If you have the Quick Draw feat, you may don or put away a quickdraw shield as a free action.
As long as you were using a one handed or light trip weapon, is there any reason you couldn't spellstrike as part of a trip?
As long as you were using a one handed or light trip weapon, is there any reason you couldn't spellstrike as part of a trip?
Um can somebody explain to me why a hexcrafter doesn't get improved spell recall at 11th? You don't get spell recall at 4th but I don't see anything in the hexcrafter description altering the 11th level power.
Re: Quickdraw Shields
Don't forget that a character needs to be proficient in shields for this to work, which, IIRC, the Magus isn't.
|
|
As long as you were using a one handed or light trip weapon, is there any reason you couldn't spellstrike as part of a trip?Um can somebody explain to me why a hexcrafter doesn't get improved spell recall at 11th? You don't get spell recall at 4th but I don't see anything in the hexcrafter description altering the 11th level power.
actually since spell recall is replaced, you may get spell recall at 11th instaed of improved spell recall.
improved spell recall-"Whenever he recalls a spell with spell recall..." since you cant recall a spell with sell recall, gaining improved does nothing. but in the "how archetypes work" section it mentions if a class ability is replaced, and the original ability is upgraded, you just get the original ability
An archery magus has the potential to be viable. You won't get to utilize Spellstrike or Spell Combat much, but there's some obvious synergy between Arcane Pool and the extra abilities of Arcane Archer. Combining the two of them lets you pump up your shots pretty far, letting you wield a weapon with nearly every property in the book.
My question got ran over, so I'll re-post. =)
As long as you were using a one handed or light trip weapon, is there any reason you couldn't spellstrike as part of a trip?
Thanks for the help...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Besides the Dervish feat, is there any reason why Rapier is not an option? So for instance, in a game where the Dervish feat was not used, would Rapier and Scimitar be considered equally good?
If you weren't using combat casting, the scimitar would also give you the option of using two hands for increased damage. The rapier specifically precludes using 2 hands.
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
Besides the Dervish feat, is there any reason why Rapier is not an option? So for instance, in a game where the Dervish feat was not used, would Rapier and Scimitar be considered equally good?
Statistically, besides the 2-handed thing mentioned by Xykal, the rapier also does P damage instead of S, which tends to be the weaker of the two when it comes up against DR.
A few pages back someone was looking for a .pdf link to the guide. Here it is: WaltersGuidetotheMagus.pdf