does the bane property work for ranged weapons or only the amunition?
does the bane property work for ranged weapons or only the amunition?
It works, but they don't stack. So if you have either a humanbane longbow, humanbane arrows, or both, you gain the benefits of humanbane once.
does the bane property work for ranged weapons or only the amunition?
Magical ranged weapons, as listed in the magic items section of the core rules, bestow their powers upon the ammunition fired from them. So yes, if you shoot a totally normal arrow fromt a +1 Bane bow, the arrow becomes +1 Bane for that shot.
And as stringburka points out, all normal stacking rules still apply vis a vis weapon and ammunition.
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does the bane property work for ranged weapons or only the amunition?
Ranged magic items impart their special properties onto their ammunition when fired, but enhancement bonuses and additional dice from the same abilities (if, for example, firing a magic arrow from a magic bow) never stack. In the case of enhancement bonuses, the highest of the weapon or the ammunition is used.
Additionally, since this question may also come up, mundane ammunition fired from a magic ranged weapon retains the weapons magical properties for purposes of overcoming DR. A regular old arrow fired from a +1 Longbow will overcome DR/magic.
in that case I'm not sure why anyone would purchase magic arrows except for special cases like arrows of slaying.
So if you fire a +3 arrow from a +1 Keen, Humanbane longbow... what happens?
Best of both:
+3 Keen Humanbane damage is done by the arrow.|
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does the bane property work for ranged weapons or only the amunition?
While it is commonly played that special properties transfer to ammunition, I personally can't find the rules to support it. Some properties (at least in SRD 3.5) specifically called out that this was the case; in many cases, that text was left out of PF.
The passage that I can find about ammunition is: "Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon."
Can someone point me to the text that states that weapon properties universally transfer from a projectile weapon to its ammunition?
does the bane property work for ranged weapons or only the amunition?While it is commonly played that special properties transfer to ammunition, I personally can't find the rules to support it. Some properties (at least in SRD 3.5) specifically called out that this was the case; in many cases, that text was left out of PF.
The passage that I can find about ammunition is: "Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon."
Can someone point me to the text that states that weapon properties universally transfer from a projectile weapon to its ammunition?
I haven't actually looked for specific rules, no; but what good is Flaming or Frost etc, on a longbow, if the property is not transmitted? Logic dictates that this item is available to either screw the PC out of gold or to transfer the property to the ammunition.
So if you fire a +3 arrow from a +1 Keen, Humanbane longbow... what happens?Best of both:
+3 Keen Humanbane damage is done by the arrow.
One minor correction: I don't believe you can Keen a ranged weapon. Maybe the ammunition, but not the weapon itself.
does the bane property work for ranged weapons or only the amunition?While it is commonly played that special properties transfer to ammunition, I personally can't find the rules to support it. Some properties (at least in SRD 3.5) specifically called out that this was the case; in many cases, that text was left out of PF.
The passage that I can find about ammunition is: "Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon."
Can someone point me to the text that states that weapon properties universally transfer from a projectile weapon to its ammunition?
Core rulebook, page 469, table 15-10, note 2: bows, crossbows and slings crafted with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition.
Powers noted include bane, flaming, frost, et al.
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I haven't actually looked for specific rules, no; but what good is Flaming or Frost etc, on a longbow, if the property is not transmitted? Logic dictates that this item is available to either screw the PC out of gold or to transfer the property to the ammunition.
In SRD 3.5, flaming explicitly transfered to the ammunition. That text is left out of PF. To be clear, I'm not trying to screw PCs. Rather, I'm trying to see if I've missed something, and if not, to identify either that it is a change (don't make flaming bows), or if it needs errata.
One minor correction: I don't believe you can Keen a ranged weapon. Maybe the ammunition, but not the weapon itself.So if you fire a +3 arrow from a +1 Keen, Humanbane longbow... what happens?Best of both:
+3 Keen Humanbane damage is done by the arrow.
That is correct, only piercing or slashing melee weapons can be made keen.
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Can someone point me to the text that states that weapon properties universally transfer from a projectile weapon to its ammunition?Core rulebook, page 469, table 15-10, note 2: bows, crossbows and slings crafted with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition.
Powers noted include bane, flaming, frost, et al.
Excellent, thank you. So, in SRD, it was noted in the property description. Instead, PF has it is noted as foot note. So, it isn't a general rule that it applies to all properties. Transfer to ammo applies to bane, flaming, frost, merciful, shock, thundering, anarchic, axiomatic, flaming burst, holy, icy burst, unholy; this is an explicit list.
does the bane property work for ranged weapons or only the amunition?While it is commonly played that special properties transfer to ammunition, I personally can't find the rules to support it. Some properties (at least in SRD 3.5) specifically called out that this was the case; in many cases, that text was left out of PF.
The passage that I can find about ammunition is: "Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon."
Can someone point me to the text that states that weapon properties universally transfer from a projectile weapon to its ammunition?
You are correct. The transfer of special ability from ranged weapon to ammunition has been specifically removed from PF.
"Flaming" for example:
3.5 SRD:
Flaming
Upon command, a flaming weapon is sheathed in fire. The fire does not harm the wielder. The effect remains until another command is given. A flaming weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the fire energy upon their ammunition.PFSRD:
Flaming: Upon command, a flaming weapon is sheathed in fire that deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit. The fire does not harm the wielder. The effect remains until another command is given.In addition PFSRD says:
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.Note however it does not say the ammunition gains the enhancement bonus of the ranged weapon. In 3.5 that was all you needed to know to overcome DR/Magic but in PF you need to know the specific enhancement bonus to determine other DR overcoming...
Core rulebook, page 468: Ranged Weapons and Ammunition - The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from the ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.
So yes, ammunition does indeed get the enhancement bonus from the weapon - providing it is higher than what the ammunition itself carries. And, as noted by Howie above, certain properties do indeed pass their magic abilities on to their ammo - flaming, shock, bane, etc.
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Note however it does not say the ammunition gains the enhancement bonus of the ranged weapon. In 3.5 that was all you needed to know to overcome DR/Magic but in PF you need to know the specific enhancement bonus to determine other DR overcoming effects. So do the arrows fired from a +3 Longbow become +3 arrows or do they become just magic arrows in PF?
Very good point. Hadn't thought about that.
I would say that what matter is the + of the ammunition, the ranged weapon simply make it magical.
That give a reason to purchase those +3 arrow and use them.
I find it funny to read these type of threads. Some person has given support in the Core that yes, bows bestow their abilities on ammunition, both enhancements and things like flaming. Then there are a whole bunch of other posts, some of em large. Then some people seem to not read everything and skip the posts with the important info. Then people reach the wrong conclusion.
So: bows bestow enhancements and other stuff on ammo. Read up for proof.
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I find it funny to read these type of threads. Some person has given support in the Core that yes, bows bestow their abilities on ammunition, both enhancements and things like flaming. Then there are a whole bunch of other posts, some of em large. Then some people seem to not read everything and skip the posts with the important info. Then people reach the wrong conclusion.
So: bows bestow enhancements and other stuff on ammo. Read up for proof.
If it is aimed at me, are you aware that in Pathfinder the actual enhancements of a weapon allow it to overcome specific DR?
Ant that the enhancement of Greater magic weapon allow the weapon to overcome only DR/magic?So it is relevant if the the what exactly is bestowed by the missile firing weapon to its ammunitions.
This:
"Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon."
for me mean that the ammunition become magical but nothing more, so it will not pierce the other DR.
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This:
"Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon."
for me mean that the ammunition become magical but nothing more, so it will not pierce the other DR.
So, does an arrow from a +1 bow damage incorporeal creatures? :)
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I find it funny to read these type of threads. Some person has given support in the Core that yes, bows bestow their abilities on ammunition, both enhancements and things like flaming. Then there are a whole bunch of other posts, some of em large. Then some people seem to not read everything and skip the posts with the important info. Then people reach the wrong conclusion.
So: bows bestow enhancements and other stuff on ammo. Read up for proof.
This thread grew pretty organically and included some posts crossing between proof and composition. It happens. And one of the things that came out of it is that bows do NOT universally bestow all special properties on ammunition. And, what also came out of it is that there might be a hole regarding how the PF rule for damage reduction is incorporated in all this. Read up for proof. :)
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So, does an arrow from a +1 bow damage incorporeal creatures? :)
I have a feeling you're just funnin' with us, but the answer (in case you're not) is yes. But, it only causes 1/2 damage.
Incorporeal (Ex) An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.
Since we've established, by rule, that a magic ranged weapon imparts its magic qualities onto mundane ammunition, it is being attacked by a "magic weapon."
This:
"Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon."
for me mean that the ammunition become magical but nothing more, so it will not pierce the other DR.
Next time actually read up, this was posted slightly above:
"Core rulebook, page 468: Ranged Weapons and Ammunition - The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from the ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.
So yes, ammunition does indeed get the enhancement bonus from the weapon - providing it is higher than what the ammunition itself carries. And, as noted by Howie above, certain properties do indeed pass their magic abilities on to their ammo - flaming, shock, bane, etc."
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So, does an arrow from a +1 bow damage incorporeal creatures? :)This:
"Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon."
for me mean that the ammunition become magical but nothing more, so it will not pierce the other DR.
Incorporeal (Ex) An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities.
Yes.
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This:
"Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon."
for me mean that the ammunition become magical but nothing more, so it will not pierce the other DR.Next time actually read up, this was posted slightly above:
"Core rulebook, page 468: Ranged Weapons and Ammunition - The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from the ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.
So yes, ammunition does indeed get the enhancement bonus from the weapon - providing it is higher than what the ammunition itself carries. And, as noted by Howie above, certain properties do indeed pass their magic abilities on to their ammo - flaming, shock, bane, etc."
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have).Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction.
DR Type Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent
cold iron/silver +3
adamantine* +4
alignment-based +5
* Note that this does not give the ability to ignore hardness, like an actual adamantine weapon does
From the bolded parts the bonus is transferred, but the projectile count only as magic.
So unless you hit your target on the head with your +3 bow a lycantrope will get his full DR.
On the other hand if you use +3 arrow the lycantrope get full damage.
One minor correction: I don't believe you can Keen a ranged weapon. Maybe the ammunition, but not the weapon itself.
I see nothing that says you can't create a +1 Keen Longbow. It may not be listed on Table 15-10: Ranged Weapon Special Abilities, but nothing anywhere that I've been able to find specifically precludes a Keen Longbow. Keen doesn't limit it, the section on ranged weapons doesn't limit it either. Even the spell Keen Edge does not disallow ranged weapons. As far as I can tell, no where in the rules does it specifically say that you can't Keen a ranged weapon.
So unless you hit your target on the head with your +3 bow a lycantrope will get his full DR.
I don't see how you can possibly justify that position, given your quoted materials. Given that the normal, non-magical, non-masterwork, arrow fired from a +3 bow becomes a +3 arrow, as you quoted, a +3 bow conveys it's fired ammunition the ability to overcome DR */cold iron/silver, +4 bow likewise does the same for its ammunition for DR */Adamantine. You even bolded the important words "Treated as a MAGIC WEAPON."
This:
"Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon."
for me mean that the ammunition become magical but nothing more, so it will not pierce the other DR.Next time actually read up, this was posted slightly above:
"Core rulebook, page 468: Ranged Weapons and Ammunition - The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from the ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.
So yes, ammunition does indeed get the enhancement bonus from the weapon - providing it is higher than what the ammunition itself carries. And, as noted by Howie above, certain properties do indeed pass their magic abilities on to their ammo - flaming, shock, bane, etc."
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have).Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction.
DR Type Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent
cold iron/silver +3
adamantine* +4
alignment-based +5
* Note that this does not give the ability to ignore hardness, like an actual adamantine weapon doesFrom the bolded parts the bonus is transferred, but the projectile count only as magic.
So unless you hit your target on the head with your +3 bow a lycantrope will get his full DR.
On the...
Diego, I hate to be disagreeable, but I think you're wrong in this instance. A normal arrow, fired from a +3 longbow, is indeed counted as a magical weapon for the purposes of overcoming damage resistance; it is counted as a +3 weapon for that purpose.
You are narrowly defining an arrow fired from a magic bow as a magical weapon, only capable of overcoming DR/magic. I think you're confusing the very specific qualities of the greater magic weapon spell with magical weapons, in general. In fact, as the arrow has adopted the enhancement bonus of the +3 bow, it is indeed capable of piercing DR types including cold iron and silver.
One minor correction: I don't believe you can Keen a ranged weapon. Maybe the ammunition, but not the weapon itself.I see nothing that says you can't create a +1 Keen Longbow. It may not be listed on Table 15-10: Ranged Weapon Special Abilities, but nothing anywhere that I've been able to find specifically precludes a Keen Longbow. Keen doesn't limit it, the section on ranged weapons doesn't limit it either. Even the spell Keen Edge does not disallow ranged weapons. As far as I can tell, no where in the rules does it specifically say that you can't Keen a ranged weapon.
Actually, in the description of the keen property, it does specifically say only piercing or slashing melee weapons can be keen. Sorry, it did sound like a good idea, though!
Actually, in the description of the keen property, it does specifically say only piercing or slashing melee weapons can be keen. Sorry, it did sound like a good idea, though!
And a longbow, shortbow, and even crossbows, are all piercing weapons. Therefor legal.
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I know this can get contentious so here's my two favorite arguments in favor of ranged weapon enhancement bypassing DR cold iron or higher:
1) it is explicitly stated that the ranged weapon gives it's enhancement bonus to ammo. It also says that it counts as a magic weapon for purposes of overcoming DR. From the very first sentence of the PRD section on magic weapons:
A magic weapon is enhanced to strike more truly and deliver more damage. Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5.
The definition of a magic weapon is one with an enhancement bonus from +1 to +5, not "a weapon that overcomes DR/magic."
2) now look at the spell greater magic weaponThis spell functions like magic weapon, except that it gives a weapon an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5). This bonus does not allow a weapon to bypass damage reduction aside from magic.
Here it is explicitly called out that it DOES NOT allow bypassing higher DR. If ranged weapons didn't bypass DR a line like this would be in the section on ranged weapon enhancement bonuses.
Honestly, I think the whole mess could be avoided if enhancement bonuses didn't bypass DR. By the time you get +3 weapons, you're at a medium level and doing decent damage anyway. DR can add some strategy to the game at low levels but by medium levels most people can afford weapons that bypass DR. My personal opinion is that it probably started out as a nifty way of making an awesome weapon even a bit cooler but is now just an unnecessary complication that would be impossible to remove without some serious bestiary work.
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Actually, in the description of the keen property, it does specifically say only piercing or slashing melee weapons can be keen. Sorry, it did sound like a good idea, though!And a longbow, shortbow, and even crossbows, are all piercing weapons. Therefor legal.
Keen: This ability doubles the threat range of a weapon. Only piercing or slashing melee weapons can be keen. If you roll this property randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll. This benefit doesn't stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon (such as the keen edge spell or the Improved Critical feat).
Note the emphasis on melee.
Actually, in the description of the keen property, it does specifically say only piercing or slashing melee weapons can be keen. Sorry, it did sound like a good idea, though!And a longbow, shortbow, and even crossbows, are all piercing weapons. Therefor legal.
Nostagar, you didn't read that statement quite closely enough. Core rulebook, page 471: Piercing or slashing MELEE weapons can be keen.
MELEE weapons. While I suppose you could whack someone across the face with a bow, it is not, in actuality, a melee weapon.
So yeah - keen weapons? MELEE weapons.
EDIT: Ninja'd by Belafon.
Actually, in the description of the keen property, it does specifically say only piercing or slashing melee weapons can be keen. Sorry, it did sound like a good idea, though!And a longbow, shortbow, and even crossbows, are all piercing weapons. Therefor legal.
Interesting theory.. however it is incorrect. Keen can only be placed on a Melee weapon.
See:
Table Melee Weapon Special Abilities and compare vs Table Ranged Weapon Special Abilities.
Magic Items: Weapons
And yes an arrow is treated as a ranged weapon.
Actually, in the description of the keen property, it does specifically say only piercing or slashing melee weapons can be keen. Sorry, it did sound like a good idea, though!And a longbow, shortbow, and even crossbows, are all piercing weapons. Therefor legal.
Ok, I stand corrected (times about 5 people). The rule does specifically say melee weapons only. Sorry I missed that part there. :)
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I believe there has been some debate about how ammo and projectile weapons resolve when both are magical.
The debate I've seen has centered on whether the phrase "the greater bonus applies" refers to the total bonus of weapon and arrow.
So, a +1 flaming arrow shot from a +3 bow would take the "+3" from the bow instead of the +2 (+1 plus a +1 equivalent) from the flaming arrow.
I've never seen this clearly addressed by the rules, a FAQ or an errata, so I consider this to be unresolved by Paizo and up to the GM to decide.
I would probably rule that special abilities stack with the highest specific "+" so that a flaming arrow shot from a +3 bow would be a +3 flaming arrow, but I acknowledge that some interpret this differently.
I believe there has been some debate about how ammo and projectile weapons resolve when both are magical.
The debate I've seen has centered on whether the phrase "the greater bonus applies" refers to the total bonus of weapon and arrow.
To clarify: You're talking about this A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10.
That is another can of worms especially with bows and ammo and how these things resolve such as choosing which properties to exclude and how it's done.
I believe there has been some debate about how ammo and projectile weapons resolve when both are magical.
The debate I've seen has centered on whether the phrase "the greater bonus applies" refers to the total bonus of weapon and arrow.
To clarify: You're talking about this A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10.
That is another can of worms especially with bows and ammo and how these things resolve such as choosing which properties to exclude and how it's done.
No, I'm not. Although that comes into play in the debate I am referring to in a big way when the stacked bonuses would exceed 10. But the rule that satisfies above 10 should satisfy below 10, or else there should be an explicit method for how to resolve the stacking when you exceed 10 and when you don't.
No, I'm not. Although that comes into play in the debate I am referring to in a big way when the stacked bonuses would exceed 10. But the rule that satisfies above 10 should satisfy below 10, or else there should be an explicit method for how to resolve the stacking when you exceed 10 and when you don't.
Ah, my mistake, here's the relevant text then:
The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.
This was posted above by someone else, I figured that was not what you were talking about.
No, I'm not. Although that comes into play in the debate I am referring to in a big way when the stacked bonuses would exceed 10. But the rule that satisfies above 10 should satisfy below 10, or else there should be an explicit method for how to resolve the stacking when you exceed 10 and when you don't.Ah, my mistake, here's the relevant text then:
The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.
This was posted above by someone else, I figured that was not what you were talking about.
Sigh... I wonder why I even try sometimes.
So Stynkk, what does it mean "the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies" when the arrow is a +2 flaming arrow and the bow is a +3 bow? Is it the resulting arrow a +3 arrow with no flaming, a +2 flaming arrow or a +3 flaming arrow?
You do see how the text you posted could be interpreted any of the above ways, right?
Sigh... I wonder why I even try sometimes.So Stynkk, what does it mean "the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies" when the arrow is a +2 flaming arrow and the bow is a +3 bow? Is it the resulting arrow a +3 arrow with no flaming, a +2 flaming arrow or a +3 flaming arrow?
You do see how the text you posted could be interpreted any of the above ways, right?
No sir, the +2 flaming arrow has an enhancement bonus of +2, the bow has a +3 enhancment bonus. The arrow will become a +3 flaming arrow.
The added abilites of the ammunition are not actually part of the enhancment bonus - it is a "special ability bonus". Enhancement bonuses are the pure +X numbers.
A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents,including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus. Weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once.
Never fear sir, stynkk is here!
We also see this repeated in the Crafting text for magic weapons
Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.
Sigh... I wonder why I even try sometimes.So Stynkk, what does it mean "the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies" when the arrow is a +2 flaming arrow and the bow is a +3 bow? Is it the resulting arrow a +3 arrow with no flaming, a +2 flaming arrow or a +3 flaming arrow?
You do see how the text you posted could be interpreted any of the above ways, right?
No sir, the +2 flaming arrow has an enhancement bonus of +2, the bow has a +3 enhancment bonus. The arrow will become a +3 flaming arrow.
The added abilites of the ammunition are not actually part of the enhancment bonus it is a "special ability bonus". Enhancemnt bonuses are the pure +X numbers.
A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents,including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus. Weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once.
Never fear sir, stynkk is here!
We also see this repeated in the Crafting text for magic weapons
Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.
So we see how YOU interpret it Stynkk, but as I said, other people don't interpret it that way. It all depends on what you mean by "enhancement bonus". Since special abilities are defined in the same magic item creation area as being equivalent to specific "+" bonuses some people interpret a +2 flaming arrow as a total +3 weapon. Sure YOU don't. But others do. Thus the debate.
So we see how YOU interpret it Stynkk, but as I said, other people don't interpret it that way. It all depends on what you mean by "enhancement bonus". Since special abilities are defined in the same magic item creation area as being equivalent to specific "+" bonuses some people interpret a +2 flaming arrow as a total +3 weapon. Sure YOU don't. But others do. Thus the debate.
But there is no debate, sir. If the flaming was treated as an enhancement bonus (as you suggest people would do) you could never have a +10 equivalent weapon (+5 Enhancement +5 Special ability). You could only have a +5 equivalent weapon because enhancment bonus totals cap out at +5.
No, I'm not. Although that comes into play in the debate I am referring to in a big way when the stacked bonuses would exceed 10. But the rule that satisfies above 10 should satisfy below 10, or else there should be an explicit method for how to resolve the stacking when you exceed 10 and when you don't.Ah, my mistake, here's the relevant text then:
The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.
This was posted above by someone else, I figured that was not what you were talking about.
Sigh... I wonder why I even try sometimes.
So Stynkk, what does it mean "the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies" when the arrow is a +2 flaming arrow and the bow is a +3 bow? Is it the resulting arrow a +3 arrow with no flaming, a +2 flaming arrow or a +3 flaming arrow?
You do see how the text you posted could be interpreted any of the above ways, right?
You have to differentiate between the enhancement bonus (the "plus whatever") and the special abilities (flaming, shock, whatever) when determining what an arrow fired from a magical bow delivers on target.
The special ability - bane, flaming, frost, merciful, shock, etc - is always imparted to the arrow from the bow. It is the bows' raison d'etre - if it wasn't imparting that special ability to the arrow, then the bow wouldn't be noted as possessing said special ability.
On top of that, you also add the higher of the bows' or the arrows' enhancement bonus. This is explicit in the rules.
So, in your example, you are delivering on target an arrow with a +3 enhancement bonus and the flaming special ability.
We really shouldn't overthink this, guys.
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So, does an arrow from a +1 bow damage incorporeal creatures? :)I have a feeling you're just funnin' with us, but the answer (in case you're not) is yes. But, it only causes 1/2 damage.
Incorporeal (Ex) An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.
Since we've established, by rule, that a magic ranged weapon imparts its magic qualities onto mundane ammunition, it is being attacked by a "magic weapon."
Actually, I'm not just funnin' with you. This is a long standing, real issue. We have not, in fact, established that a ranged weapon imparts its magic qualities onto mundane ammunition in a generalized blanket fashion. What we have established is:
1) "Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have)."
and
2) for many (but not all) special abilities, "bows, crossbows, and slings crafted with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition."
The issue, and this goes back to 3.5, is whether the ammunition that is treated as a magic weapon for the purposes of DR is also treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of incorporeal damage. It is complicated by the fact that the 3.5 FAQ explicitly says that a monk's ki (magic) strike is treated as magic solely for overcoming DR, and explicitly isn't treated as magic for damaging incorporeal. Monk ki (magic) uses the same wording as is used for ammunition. This wording has not changed from 3.5 to Pathfinder.
Not everyone treats the 3.5 FAQ as meaningful for Pathfinder. That's fine. My point is meaningful for those who do. For those who don't, it isn't that all is well, rather, the issue is grey and up in the air.
Edit: I'm well aware that this is a rather obscure point and most would just go with the arrow from magic bow working vs. incorp even if they knew of it.
The issue, and this goes back to 3.5, is whether the ammunition that is treated as a magic weapon for the purposes of DR is also treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of incorporeal damage. It is complicated by the fact that the 3.5 FAQ explicitly says that a monk's ki (magic) strike is treated as magic solely for overcoming DR, and explicitly isn't treated as magic for damaging incorporeal. Monk ki (magic) uses the same wording as is used for ammunition. This wording has not changed from 3.5 to Pathfinder.
The same could be said about the Arcane Strike feat which uses the same wording as you describe "magic weapon for the purposes of Damage Reduction".
However, I don't believe the question you're posing has a bearing on this particular question. I hope to point out why:
Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
We know from this text that the bow (+1 in this case) applies its enhancement to an arrow (mundane in this case) because the highest enhancement bonus applies during the attack. Mechanically you're attacking with the equivalent of a + 1 arrow. Ammunition that has an enhancement bonus is inherently magical.
From my reading, this differs from Ki Strike or Arcane Strike in that they do not truly turn the Monk's fist or caster's weapons into magical sources of damage in the same way as a Magic Weapon or the spell Magic Weapon do.
From Magic Weapon: Magic weapon gives a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls.
From Greater Magic Weapon: This bonus does not allow a weapon to bypass damage reduction aside from magic.
This is what I'm getting from the text, though personally I'd like it streamlined together. Now that I'm reading the rules finely, I see why they chose the words they did, they probably thought referencing enhancement bonus at all would confuse people into thinking Ki Strike or Arcane Strike added to attack and damage.
I think that the higher enhancement only solves, Stynkk. I've had this discussion a dozen times and this is the first time it's been brought to the table. Well done.
*hi5 howie* go team rules!
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Diego, I hate to be disagreeable, but I think you're wrong in this instance. A normal arrow, fired from a +3 longbow, is indeed counted as a magical weapon for the purposes of overcoming damage resistance; it is counted as a +3 weapon for that purpose.You are narrowly defining an arrow fired from a magic bow as a magical weapon, only capable of overcoming DR/magic. I think you're confusing the very specific qualities of the greater magic weapon spell with magical weapons, in general. In fact, as the arrow has adopted the enhancement bonus of the +3 bow, it is indeed capable of piercing DR types including cold iron and silver.
No problem, mine is an opinion, based mostly on how Greater magic weapon work:
Magic Weapon, Greater
...
This spell functions like magic weapon, except that it gives a weapon an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5).This bonus does not allow a weapon to bypass damage reduction aside from magic.
and this piece:
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
It is fully possible that the intent was to allow the arrow to bypass the higher DR if the bow had a higher bonus. As written it don't seem to do that and I like the idea of making the +X arrow still useful at higher playing level.
As stated in the first post about this I will rule this way, I am not saying that it should be a universal ruling. Maybe saying "I would say" didn't made that sufficiently clear.
Worth making a FAQ for a official ruling as it can make difference in society play.