No problem, mine is an opinion, based mostly on how Greater magic weapon work:
Magic Weapon, Greater
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This spell functions like magic weapon, except that it gives a weapon an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5).This bonus does not allow a weapon to bypass damage reduction aside from magic.and this piece:
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Greater Magic Weapon is not the same as shooting a bow. While GMW imparts an enhancement bonus (as does firing from the bow) it has this restrictive clause: This bonus does not allow a weapon to bypass damage reduction aside from magic.
You should really look at the sentence just above the one you quoted for the Magic Ammunition.
Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
The projectile weapon actually passes on its enhancement to the projectile or vice versa. This is not the same as Greater Magic Weapon which is a faux-enhancement bonus with limitations. It is not treated as Magic in regards to DR, but as a Magic Weapon, important difference.
Again a +1 bow firing a mundane arrow would have the bow firing a +1 arrow. Of course this is treated as magic for the purposes of damage reduction, as it is now a weapon with an enhancement bonus and all weapons with an enhancement bonus are inherently magical. The same is with a +5 bow shooting a mundane arrow. The rules look at these two enhancement bonuses (+5 and +0) and the result is a +5 enhancement bonus arrow - that bypasses Alignment Based/Adamantine/etc.
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You should really look at the sentence just above the one you quoted for the Magic Ammunition.
Round and round we go :D
Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction.
And your quote:
Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Your quote say that the higher enhancement applies, mine say that the weapon should have the entrenchment to bypass the DR.
Applying something is different from having something.
A masterwork bow apply his +1 to the to hit of an attack but don't make the arrow masterwork.
A +3 magic bow apply his enhancement to the to hit and damage of a arrow and make it magic (as it is explicitly stated in the rules) but don't make it a +3 arrow.
As the requirement to pierce the DR is for the weapon to have the required enhancement and the "weapon" striking the target is the arrow, not the bow I will rule, at my table, that it will not pierce special DR.
As RAW it need a specification from the developers.
Round and round we go :D
Yay! This trip will be short.
Applying something is different from having something.
A masterwork bow apply his +1 to the to hit of an attack but don't make the arrow masterwork.
This is correct. But is not directly related to what we're talking about. Masterwork is not magical, although I understand what you're trying to illustrate.
A Masterwork Projectile weapon does pass on its attack bonus to the ammo, so in a sense you can think of it as Masterwork. A masterwork arrow's bonus would not stack with a masterwork bow's.
But, this is all off-topic, the point is that Magic Projectile Weapons have text that explicitly give them this:
The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.
A +3 magic bow apply his enhancement to the to hit and damage of a arrow and make it magic (as it is explicitly stated in the rules) but don't make it a +3 arrow.
This is not correct. The enhancement bonus makes it into a Magic Weapon (by giving it an enhancement bonus) for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. This is NOT the same as treating is as Magic for the purposes of damage reduction. The latter only applies to DR/Magic.
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Is much dfferent than:
As a swift action, you can imbue your weapons with a fraction of your power. For 1 round, your weapons deal +1 damage and are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Note: No Magic Weapon, just magic. This means it can only overcome DR/Magic.
Magic Weapons can apply to all levels of DR as per the Magic Items chapter on Magic Weapons. If this was not the case then why would they say that the Bow's enhancement could influence the arrow at all and not simply write it as a different bonus?
This is also why the developers had to write the "magic" clause at the end of Greater Magic Weapon.
This spell functions like magic weapon, except that it gives a weapon an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5). This bonus does not allow a weapon to bypass damage reduction aside from magic.
Giving an item an enhancement bonus makes the item into a magical weapon - following the rules in the Magic Items chapter AND lets it bypass DR.
They needed to add the bolded sentence at the end of the spell for balance reasons. Without this sentence there would be no need to buy +5 weapons (to overcome DR), just use greater magic weapon instead.
As RAW it need a specification from the developers.
Clarification is always welcomed, but I don't think the current debate needs it.
*rubs face*
I chart this thread as follows:
Person 1: Does X do Y?
Person 2: No, here's a reason.
Person 3: Yes, here's a more clarified reason.
Person 4: Responded to person 2, missed person 3's response.
Person 5: Seconds Person 3's response.
Person 4: Missed Person 3's response, argues logic from person 2.
Person 5: Points out Person 3's rules quotation.
Person 4: Ignores Person 5, continuing the same argument.
Person 6: Looks at a different specific of Person 1's question, points out that answer is no, for a different reason.
Person 4 and Person 5 continue arguing a point.
Person 7 and 8 join in to argue about Person 6's point.
To clarify:
1.) Bows with +3 enhancement make their arrows count as magic for overcoming damage reduction.
2.) Bows with +3 enhancement confer their bonus on arrows if their bonus is higher than that of the arrow.
3.) Greater Magic Weapon specifically calls out that its granted enhancement bonus only overcomes damage reduction versus magic. (Note that this is a difference from the rules for weapon enhancement.)
4.) Keen cannot be added to a longbow/shortbow/crossbow because it is only for piercing or slashing melee weapons and a bow is a ranged weapon, not melee.
My understanding of how item properties stack would allow a +3 bow firing a +1 frost arrow to produce a +3 frost arrow. While the frost property has a +1 enhancement equivalent cost, it is not the same for stacking purposes. Now, if it were a +3 shocking longbow, and you were firing +1 frost arrows then they would come out as +3 shocking frost arrows.
Now if you have a +3 flaming longbow and +1 frost arrows, and whether flaming and frost can exist on the same item, I think that's another thread that's already running.
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long argument
In your whole post I can't find a reply to:
Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction [Note by Diego: silver, cold iron, ecc.], regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction.
Your quote say that the higher enhancement applies, mine say that the weapon should have the entrenchment to bypass the DR [silver, cold iron, adamantine, ecc].
So our position are:
- I feel that the normal arrow fired by a +3 bow isn't a +3 weapon but get a +3 bonus to hit and damage and become magical.
- You feel that the same arrow is a +3 weapon and can overcome DR/Silver or Cold Iron.
You confirm that the second is your interpretation of the rules?
#1 Thanks for reading.. eyeroll.. the whole post is a rebuttal to that idea.
You confirm that the second is your interpretation of the rules?
If all you want is proof that the arrow fired is a magic weapon...
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
RAW - the arrow is a Magic Weapon. Not treated as magic or magical, but as a magic weapon.
An arrow is given the enhancment bonus of the bow (if it's higher than that of the arrow) and becomes a Magic Weapon when this happens. RAW.
You need X enhancement on a Magic Weapon to overcome Y DR. RAW. Lucky for you, when shot from a Magic Bow a mundane arrow becomes a Magic Weapon with the enhancement of the bow (if it's higher than that of the arrow). RAW. And if the new enhancement bonus of the arrow is high enough you can overcome DR. This includes the basic DR/Magic but it can ALSO include DR/Silver, DR/Cold iron, DR/Adamantine just like any other Magic Weapon with a high enough enhancement bonus. RAW.
I can't point to weapon enough, but if I keep pointing to it, maybe you'll see it.
So yes, a +3 bow shooting a normal arrow turns the arrow into a +3 arrow that can overcome DR/Cold Iron or Silver.
A +4 bow shooting a normal arrow turns the arrow into a +4 arrow that can overcome DR/adamantine
A +5 bow shooting a normal arrow turns the arrow into a +5 arrow that can overcome DR/Evil
The rest of the RAW proof with citations is in my post above, feel free to read it. If you don't feel it's RAW, then I'd like to see some RAW on your side to back you up.
And (now I feel kind of dumb for doing all that leg work when Paizo did all the work for me) here's the final blow that topples your reading (even if you didn't believe all the proof I dug up).
Overcoming DR
Damage reduction may be overcome by special materials, magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment.Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have).
Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction.
Followed by a table of enhancement bonuses that overcome DR
does the bane property work for ranged weapons or only the amunition?
Look at it this way, if the magical ability can actually be put onto a bow or crossbow then the bow or crossbow passes that ability onto any ammunition fired. Otherwise there would be no point in putting the ability on the bow or crossbow since you don't generally run up to enemies and melee them with your bow or crossbow (yes there are exeptions for specific magic/special items).
Any abilities on the ammunition obviously work since it is on the ammunition.
Only the best of similar abilities work when using magic ammunition and missle weapons together, IE: a +4 Flaming, Thundering Longbow shooting +2 Holy, Evil Outsider Bane arrows gives you a +4 Flaming, Thundering, Holy, Evil Outsider Bane attack that bypasses DR Good and anything a +4 Enchancement bonus bypasses as well.
The only time a high enhancement bonus does NOT bypass approrpiate other DR's as per the table is when that bonus comes from the 'Greater Magic Weapon' spell, due to the limitation listed in that spell itself.