Of devils, demons, and Dawkins


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I have what might be a silly question. I am reading the worldwound gambit and I am enjoying the book. It has got me wondering what is the difference between a devil a demon and a daemon?


ElyasRavenwood wrote:
I have what might be a silly question. I am reading the worldwound gambit and I am enjoying the book. It has got me wondering what is the difference between a devil a demon and a daemon?

LE, CE, NE respectively.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

There's a whole world of difference. Devils are corruptors of soul and mind, demons are corruptors of flesh, and daemons are eaters of souls.

Grand Lodge

In the ages of yore, oft' times called the 70s, Lords Gygax, Arneson, Ward, Kuntz, et. al. decided that they'd like to have a difference between a Devil and a Demon.

But WTF is the difference, afterall?!

And then the Lords of Yore saw that it was an obvious, Oh, we'll make 1 LE and 1 CE.

And over the next couple decades, especially in the 90s when Planescape made Alignment in the Outer Planes uberly important and integral to the game -- and The Blood War was borne -- Devils and Demons and their Alignment differences grew and grew and grew.

So that now only total and complete LOSERS like Demons cuz they're Chaotic morons whereas intelligent people like Devils cuz they're Lawful.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

And NE is just lame.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
W E Ray wrote:

In the ages of yore, oft' times called the 70s, Lords Gygax, Arneson, Ward, Kuntz, et. al. decided that they'd like to have a difference between a Devil and a Demon.

But WTF is the difference, afterall?!

And then the Lords of Yore saw that it was an obvious, Oh, we'll make 1 LE and 1 CE.

And over the next couple decades, especially in the 90s when Planescape made Alignment in the Outer Planes uberly important and integral to the game -- and The Blood War was borne -- Devils and Demons and their Alignment differences grew and grew and grew.

So that now only total and complete LOSERS like Demons cuz they're Chaotic morons whereas intelligent people like Devils cuz they're Lawful.

In Pathfinder Campaign Setting, the difference is explained very well. Lamashtu isn't a moron(ess) by a long shot, and neither are Orcus or any other demon lord...

Sovereign Court

A devil is born of the infernal hierarchy of Asmodeus, and knows nothing except the kind of petty political struggles that define corporate and academic life, but with extra murder. Devils obey the rules to the absolute letter, often at the detriment of the spirit, and lesser devils will ignore the rules if a superior isn't looking. The devil prefers sins of the mind. They also tend to be built on a humanoid template, in terms of appearance.

The demon is born in the savage filth of the Abyss, and from the moment it comes into existence until the moment it is destroyed entirely, it knows nothing except the savage struggle of all against all. It wants nothing more than to rend, rape, and ruin everything it comes across. The only laws a demon obeys are those backed by the fist and the lash. The demon prefers sins of the flesh. They tend to have a more bestial basic form in appearance.

The daemon is nihilism incarnate. It exists to see the end of all things, and to cause as much existential suffering along the way as it can. It will do whatever needs to be done to see these goals fulfilled, be it obeying the rules of a superior, or becoming a maverick loose cannon. It has no preference for the devilish sin of causing a paladin to fall from hubris or the demonic sin of killing and then raping an orphanage - neither holds much explicit interest except as a means of obtaining souls. Daemons prefer the sins of the soul, those that specifically debase and wear upon that most precious of commodities. They're the most alien of the three Ds in form, but still built on the same two legs, two arms, one head basic body plan as the other two.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
W E Ray wrote:
And NE is just lame.

*BITE*

Contributor

Gorbacz wrote:
In Pathfinder Campaign Setting, the difference is explained very well. Lamashtu isn't a moron(ess) by a long shot, and neither are Orcus or any other demon lord...

I think you need to look at W E Ray's userpic and then reread what he said. :)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

thank you all for your posts


Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
In Pathfinder Campaign Setting, the difference is explained very well. Lamashtu isn't a moron(ess) by a long shot, and neither are Orcus or any other demon lord...
I think you need to look at W E Ray's userpic and then reread what he said. :)

And his Pathfinder Society faction.


I'm still trying to figure how Daemons became Dawkins in the title ...

Grand Lodge

Actually the Society PC I get to (occassionally) run or get DM cred for is Andoran. It just looked like the most fun to play at Cons or in local events.

But Gorbacz is right -- I should've included a smiley face or something so that the Lords-of-the-Boards who aren't familiar with my years-long playful attacks against the CE loving Chaos-Boy and Jacobs-the-Demon-Lackey see that I'm just poking fun at those losers who think the Chaotic Alignment isn't actually a sign of stupidity.

Spoiler:

:)

Grand Lodge

Urizen wrote:
I'm still trying to figure how Daemons became Dawkins in the title ...

LOL

I didn't even see it 'till you pointed it out.

I guess I just don't care enough about the NE Outsiders to even look at them in print.

Maybe Brian Dawkins is High King of the Horsemen.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'd like to take this opportunity and say again how overjoyed I am at Todd Stewart writing the daemon book.

It was a long road, since Planescape, for the NE fiends to receive their due. But the day is coming :)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
W E Ray wrote:
Urizen wrote:
I'm still trying to figure how Daemons became Dawkins in the title ...

LOL

I didn't even see it 'till you pointed it out.

I guess I just don't care enough about the NE Outsiders to even look at them in print.

Maybe Brian Dawkins is High King of the Horsemen.

Think the Oni-Daemon's License actually has that as his name.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I thought at first it was an obscure slam against a certain well-known acerbic British biologist and philosophical naturalist :-).

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Urizen wrote:
I'm still trying to figure how Daemons became Dawkins in the title ...

Well I was posting the question from my I-phone, and I couldn't find the Edit button.

that's how Daemons became Dawkins :D


John Woodford wrote:

I thought at first it was an obscure slam against a certain well-known acerbic British biologist and philosophical naturalist :-).

Yup. I thought the OP was trying to be clever and make a play on the evolution of devils and demons. LOL


Thazar wrote:
John Woodford wrote:

I thought at first it was an obscure slam against a certain well-known acerbic British biologist and philosophical naturalist :-).

Yup. I thought the OP was trying to be clever and make a play on the evolution of devils and demons. LOL

I was thinking similar thoughts as well. If it was unintended, I'm even more amused how we've come to interpret it. :D

Liberty's Edge

Devils want to own your soul. Your soul becomes other devils, which will be under their command.

Demons want to consume your soul. Your soul fuels their power and magic.

Daemons want you and your soul to stop existing.

Scarab Sages

Lyrax wrote:

Devils want to own your soul. Your soul becomes other devils, which will be under their command.

Demons want to consume your soul. Your soul fuels their power and magic.

Daemons want you and your soul to stop existing.

And Dawkins will tell you there's no such thing as a "soul".


W E Ray wrote:

those losers who think the Chaotic Alignment isn't actually a sign of stupidity.

Says the guy who lets others tell him what to think.

Those who are given a decent mind use it. Those who don't take orders.


KaeYoss wrote:
W E Ray wrote:

those losers who think the Chaotic Alignment isn't actually a sign of stupidity.

Says the guy who lets others tell him what to think.

Those who are given a decent mind use it. Those who don't take orders.

I don't care. Just get on the plate, I'm hungry.


Trelmarixian the Black wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:
W E Ray wrote:

those losers who think the Chaotic Alignment isn't actually a sign of stupidity.

Says the guy who lets others tell him what to think.

Those who are given a decent mind use it. Those who don't take orders.

I don't care. Just get on the plate, I'm hungry.

Getting uppity, lizard?


KaeYoss wrote:


Getting uppity, lizard?

Archdaemon yes. Lizard? No.


Trelmarixian the Black wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:


Getting uppity, lizard?
Archdaemon yes. Lizard? No.

Not that much of a difference, really. Something with a high opinion of itself right up to the point where you obliterate it.

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