Come and get me ruling?


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Just to confirm, with Come and Get me from the APG, Opponents get a +4 to hit and damage versus me, but I get to counter attack them each time they attack. The counter attacks use up attacks of opportunity, so this feat really needs combat reflexes to shine.

That is correct right?


This rage power would be way better if it gave you one extra opportunity attack.


Come and Get Me (Ex): While raging, as a free action the barbarian may leave herself open to attack while preparing devastating counterattacks. Enemies gain a +4 bonus on attack and damage rolls against the barbarian until the beginning of her next turn, but every attack against the barbarian provokes an attack of opportunity from her, which is resolved prior to resolving each enemy attack. A barbarian must be at least 12th level to select this rage power.

I am not aware of the errata but according to my reading this has nothing to do with Combat Reflexes. Nor does it state that it uses up attacks of opportunity. It specifically says that EVERY ATTACK AGAINST THE BARBARIAN PROVOKES AN ATTACK OF OPPORTUNITY FROM HER. This is a special circumstance and quite obviously replaces the normal rules for AoO. My translation is as follows - anybody jumping you while this power is in operation gets +4 to attack and +4 to damage but you get a shot at them first.

If I'm wrong then tell me so. But I think I am not in this case.


Dhai wrote:

I am not aware of the errata but according to my reading this has nothing to do with Combat Reflexes. Nor does it state that it uses up attacks of opportunity. It specifically says that EVERY ATTACK AGAINST THE BARBARIAN PROVOKES AN ATTACK OF OPPORTUNITY FROM HER. This is a special circumstance and quite obviously replaces the normal rules for AoO. My translation is as follows - anybody jumping you while this power is in operation gets +4 to attack and +4 to damage but you get a shot at them first.

Under the general rules to attacks of opportunity it says you only get one per round. If the designers had meant for this not to apply they would have specifically said so or just called it a "free attack" or "extra attack."


I think that Tim is right.


CaspianM wrote:
The counter attacks use up attacks of opportunity, so this feat really needs combat reflexes to shine.

Nah. You just need to be able to kill 'em in one swing. :-P

Having combat reflexes would help with multiple opponents.


CaspianM wrote:
This rage power would be way better if it gave you one extra opportunity attack.

On a well built barbarian is devastating. I've seen it in the 12-14 level range.

Scary.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

To further support what Tim said I'd like to add that just because you provoke an AoO, it does not always mean you can take it, unless you have not already took one or have combat reflexes.


Seems useful to me. I take my full, raging iterative against you, then you get to attack me with a bonus, but as you do, I get to smack you first. If that's not enough to drop you, well, good thing I'm damage resistant.

With combat reflexes (or Quick Reflexes -- or better still, both), this is deadly -- I get 3 attacks, then when you try to take your 3 attacks, I get three more.


In addition, if your Dexterity is really too low, there is a rage power in core granting an additional AOO. Is not great, but in case can be useful.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Just gobble a +4 Dex potion before major fights and you're golden.

One of the best rage powers, and a shameless steal of Robilar's Gambit from PHB2 :)


I have a 16th level Barbarian with this ability and combat reflexes and also quick reflexes. I am also hasted most of the time thanks to the party wizard. Also have a +6 belt so dex is 22.

When I fight something with lots of attacks (like a hasted dragon) I top out at 12-13 attacks a round. 10 of them at my highest bonus. In my eyes Come and get me is the best rage power of them all.

I also have the beast totem rage powers so I have pounce. It is scary.


Venomblade wrote:

I have a 16th level Barbarian with this ability and combat reflexes and also quick reflexes. I am also hasted most of the time thanks to the party wizard. Also have a +6 belt so dex is 22.

When I fight something with lots of attacks (like a hasted dragon) I top out at 12-13 attacks a round. 10 of them at my highest bonus. In my eyes Come and get me is the best rage power of them all.

I also have the beast totem rage powers so I have pounce. It is scary.

Add to this an invulnerable rager with DR 6/- at 12 lvl and it gets real nasty when your fighting creatures with lots of small attacks.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I don't wish to be so boorish as to argue with someone who is obviously more studied than I nor decry those that support him however I will again state that its language seems to me to be very specific. Before I gave up my interpretation I would like to get somebody to errata it. This power is available only to barbarians and only at 12th level and on and further only gives you one shot at whomsoever might be taking a shot at you so I couldn't see it as overpowered even as I read it.
Sorry, Tim I understand your reasoning and you may be right but until somebody in the driver's seat says different I will stick with my understanding.


Tim is correct. As an example tripping always provokes, but if you don't have combat reflexes and 5 people run by you then there is nothing you can do about it.
The rules don't say further actions that will provoke no longer provoke after you take the first AoO. The rules say you can only take one AoO.
The same applies to the barbarian power mentioned. If I keep swinging then I keep provoking. You just can't do anything about it.


Dhai wrote:

I don't wish to be so boorish as to argue with someone who is obviously more studied than I nor decry those that support him however I will again state that its language seems to me to be very specific. Before I gave up my interpretation I would like to get somebody to errata it. This power is available only to barbarians and only at 12th level and on and further only gives you one shot at whomsoever might be taking a shot at you so I couldn't see it as overpowered even as I read it.

Sorry, Tim I understand your reasoning and you may be right but until somebody in the driver's seat says different I will stick with my understanding.

Dhai, the rules are very consistent in what "provoking" an attack of opportunity means.

PRD wrote:
Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing certain actions within a threatened square.

Obviously, there are other things that can provoke an attack of opportunity, such as retrieving something from a bag, or attacking a barbarian with Come and Get Me up. I'm not looking at that part of the sentence. But the fact that this very basic definition uses the word "provoke" (as do any rules about AoOs) is important. Provoking an attack of opportunity means that you are dropping your defenses and allowing your opponent the opportunity to take the AoO, but if they do not have any left for the round (if they have used their 1 already, or their dex mod if they have combat reflexes), they don't get the AoO.

If someone walks past you, provoking an AoO and you take it, then someone else walks past you, they ALSO provoke an AoO, but you can't take it, because you have used yours already.

Also from the same section of the PRD talking about Combat Reflexes:

PRD wrote:
This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity).

The feat lets you take multiple AoOs when multiple AoOs are provoked, such as by someone attacking you multiple times while you are Come and Get Me-ing.


It is my argument that this particular power draws on specific circumstances to perform specific actions. Which is why I would it be brought up for errata.
I understand the rules about provoking an attack as well as Combat Reflexes. It is my belief that in this particular instance under the definition of the rage power as I understand it that it is an exception. Inside a game I would take it to my GM but as this is a PF system question I would argue that they need to be specific.
From a flavor POV I view this as a very "300" type of power - one barbarian against great odds standing with his back to the wall, roaring defiance and swinging his weapon until he goes down or his enemies do.
I understand your argument. I do. But, until somebody puts in down in the official errata it is still open for the interpretation that I have put forward. Perhaps I am being stubborn but I fear that we must agree to disagree.


Dhai wrote:

It is my argument that this particular power draws on specific circumstances to perform specific actions. Which is why I would it be brought up for errata.

I understand the rules about provoking an attack as well as Combat Reflexes. It is my belief that in this particular instance under the definition of the rage power as I understand it that it is an exception. Inside a game I would take it to my GM but as this is a PF system question I would argue that they need to be specific.
From a flavor POV I view this as a very "300" type of power - one barbarian against great odds standing with his back to the wall, roaring defiance and swinging his weapon until he goes down or his enemies do.
I understand your argument. I do. But, until somebody puts in down in the official errata it is still open for the interpretation that I have put forward. Perhaps I am being stubborn but I fear that we must agree to disagree.

I'm fine with agree to disagree, and if you want to play the game that way, then by all means do so. It does, as you say, lend itself to some pretty epic 300 situations, as well as some pretty hilarious comic ones (Imagine a barbarian surrounded by thousands of 2HD goblins who all charge him. As each charges, he interrupts their attacks and bobs each on the head, killing it... Every goblin in a 40-foot radius does this each round. Every 6 seconds you have 200 more dead goblins).

I just want to be clear though, that that is you house-ruling the game. The rules could not be more explicit in what is actually going on here. It provokes AoO, but you don't get to attack unless you have an AoO to burn on it (If this were an exception to the universal AoO rules it would explicitly spell that out). If you want to houserule it, that's fine, but as this is a rules forum, the RAW is what is in question, and that is, unfortunately, not open for interpretation.

I know that came off as aggressive and I really don't want to be coming down on your play style. Honestly, it sounds fun. But it's not the RAW.


Dhai wrote:

It is my argument that this particular power draws on specific circumstances to perform specific actions. Which is why I would it be brought up for errata.

I understand the rules about provoking an attack as well as Combat Reflexes. It is my belief that in this particular instance under the definition of the rage power as I understand it that it is an exception. Inside a game I would take it to my GM but as this is a PF system question I would argue that they need to be specific.
From a flavor POV I view this as a very "300" type of power - one barbarian against great odds standing with his back to the wall, roaring defiance and swinging his weapon until he goes down or his enemies do.
I understand your argument. I do. But, until somebody puts in down in the official errata it is still open for the interpretation that I have put forward. Perhaps I am being stubborn but I fear that we must agree to disagree.

You have yet to support your case though. I don't expect this to change your mind, but I don't see how this is different than saying any other AoO does not get taken since that power gives no special condition allowing to take the AoO.

Quote:

Combat Reflexes (Combat)

You can make additional attacks of opportunity.

Benefit: You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity per round equal to your Dexterity bonus. With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.

Nothing in come and get me says you get additional attacks of opportunity.

PS: This is more for people that might try to use your reading of the ability later, than for you to reply too.


And of course the best friend of a CAGM barb is his Inquisitor buddy with a reach weapon and the Paired Opportunist feat!! MAYHEM


Dhai seems to think that because he thinks the ability would be more poweful/`awesome` without AoO limitations, that this is an Errata issue, when the ability is completey straight-forward. Of course, ANY ability would be more poweful and awesome if you let it bypass normal restrictions on it`s scope of effect, but doing so just leads to escalation and in-balanced game-play. As it so happens, SEVERAL other Rage Powers synergize amazingly well if you actually take another Feat related to their function (and in most cases, you only need low level Feats, not huge Feat chains). In this case, you can take Combat Reflexes, and there is even aother Rage Power giving you 1 more AoO, i.e. independent of DEX score. Unexpected Strike is AMAZINGLY powerful even if you `only` have a few AoO`s.


Yeah, sorry Dhai, but there is no need to errata something that is already spelled out completely... The point of errata is to clarify, but this issue is already very clear. (and not an issue)


Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I have a question about "come and get me"... it reads that "any attack" against a Barb using this power will provoke an attack of opportunity... does that include attacks of opportunity themselves? Do AoO's count as an attack?

If two barbs with this same power working are standing next to each other and one provokes, does it create a chain of AoO's between the two until one of the two runs out of potential AoO's and then you have to resolve them back up the chain?


Whiskey Jack wrote:

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I have a question about "come and get me"... it reads that "any attack" against a Barb using this power will provoke an attack of opportunity... does that include attacks of opportunity themselves? Do AoO's count as an attack?

If two barbs with this same power working are standing next to each other and one provokes, does it create a chain of AoO's between the two until one of the two runs out of potential AoO's and then you have to resolve them back up the chain?

Yes, yes, and yes.


Yowza. Thanks. It sounds like "and comedy ensues" should be part of the announcement a player should have to tack on when saying they are firing this bad-boy up.

I can't help picturing two barbarians slapping each other in turn over and over again.


Whiskey Jack wrote:

Yowza. Thanks. It sounds like "and comedy ensues" should be part of the announcement a player should have to tack on when saying they are firing this bad-boy up.

I can't help picturing two barbarians slapping each other in turn over and over again.

I've a barb L12 and would interrupt this dance with an Improved Vital Strike attack to deal more damage and end the fight...


BLIB wrote:
Whiskey Jack wrote:

Yowza. Thanks. It sounds like "and comedy ensues" should be part of the announcement a player should have to tack on when saying they are firing this bad-boy up.

I can't help picturing two barbarians slapping each other in turn over and over again.

I've a barb L12 and would interrupt this dance with an Improved Vital Strike attack to deal more damage and end the fight...

Can you AoO vital strike?

Shadow Lodge

No--he is suggesting that during his normal attack routine he would vital strike, giving himself an edge in DPR by having one big attack on his turn versus the CAGM Barb's one normal attack.


Sammy T wrote:
No--he is suggesting that during his normal attack routine he would vital strike, giving himself an edge in DPR by having one big attack on his turn versus the CAGM Barb's one normal attack.

There is actually a new feat that allows you to make Vital Strikes at the end of a charge with a Greatsword and use Vital Strike on one AoO per round.


Which feat is that?


Lostcause78 wrote:
Which feat is that?

I'm not entirely sure why these four posts were worth the four year necro, but the feat is Divine Fighting Technique, specifically for worshippers of Gorum.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The only thing that comes to mind is the Vigilante Talent that lets you use Vital Strike on AoOs. I don't know about the charge thing.


It's a divine Fighting technique

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Oh yeah, gotta worship Gorum for that.

Scarab Sages

Rysky wrote:
Oh yeah, gotta worship Gorum for that.

Yeah, but it's not like worshiping gorum is bad for that. It would be awesom for a vital strike warpriest with greater weapon of the chosen.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Imbicatus wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Oh yeah, gotta worship Gorum for that.
Yeah, but it's not like worshiping gorum is bad for that. It would be awesom for a vital strike warpriest with greater weapon of the chosen.

*nods*


Edit:

Nevermind.

Didn't realize this thread was 5 years old....

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