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O.o
Ummm... How many shields is this guy carrying?
While I'm not a fan of encumbrance rules.... if a player took advantage like that, I'd DEFINITELY start enforcing it...
I think it means its free to take the shield of your arm and into your hand to throw. Actualy throwing would still be an attack action, but could be part of a full attack. That may not be RAW, but I think it's RAI
It has to be quick draw shields from the APG to work. And yes it is silly, and should be removed from the game (or changed into a move or swift action to throw the shield).
I did a silly build using this. At lvl 20 it was no problem having a high str (+muleback cords and ant haul), so that he was able to carry 9600 throwing light shields(quick draw). All accessible, and throwable. No need for other magic bags or shrinking stuff.
How in the world anyone is going to carry it around seems strange, but encumbrance is the road to go.
But there is a somewhat easy fix, if a player tries to do this: The GM is the arbitrator of how many free actions can be done during a single turn. As such you can limit it, but whether 3, 10 or 100 shield can be thrown at once, the rules doesn't help.
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'Throwing Shield: This shield is designed for throwing and comes with specially designed straps allowing you to unclasp and throw it as a free action...' (Adventurer's Armory page 5)
'Throwing shield' is an extra which can be added to a normal (non-tower) shield. It turns the shield into a specific Exotic ranged weapon (using the statistics on the inside back cover). The benefits of this modification are:
a) you can get it off your arm and throw it as a free action. Note that you can only use this free action if you're wearing the thing as a normal shield in the first place (the free action is specifically 'unclasp and throw' not 'pick up and throw' or 'get out of your backpack and throw').
b) it's not counted as an improvised weapon when you throw it - even without Exotic Weapon Proficiency (throwing shield) it still gets its 20ft range increment (instead of the improvised weapon's standard 10ft), does 1d6 bludgeoning damage (if medium sized), and has the Trip quality...
c) it has the trip weapon quality.
So, RAW, basically you wear and use it as a normal shield, but can, during your turn, sacrifice it by chucking it at some mook as an extra 'free' attack. Nice, but not really game-breaking.
Plus - with the Captain America film coming out soon, the popularity of this little item is bound to skyrocket! :)
a) you can get it off your arm and throw it as a free action. Note that you can only use this free action if you're wearing the thing as a normal shield in the first place (the free action is specifically 'unclasp and throw' not 'pick up and throw' or 'get out of your backpack and throw').
But the problem arises when you add the throwing extra to a Quick Draw Shield (from APG).
The quick draw shields can be readied as a move action, OR a free action if you have the quick draw feat.Thus you get the situation where you (rule-wise, not reasonably) can put on your shield as a free action, and throw it as a free action, rinse and repeat.
Silly and definately gamebreaking, when you boost you carrying capacity to having several thousands of these shields.
I did a silly build using this. At lvl 20 it was no problem having a high str (+muleback cords and ant haul), so that he was able to carry 9600 throwing light shields(quick draw). All accessible, and throwable. No need for other magic bags or shrinking stuff.
How in the world anyone is going to carry it around seems strange, but encumbrance is the road to go.
The GM would be perfectly in the right to say "how, exactly, are all those items accessible?" Although I know of nothing in the CRB about it, one can pretty well put a limit of one or two "accessible" shields.
Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn.
I'd say that's a circumstance in which the number of free actions you can perform in a turn may be limited :D
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'... This light shield is specially crafted with a series of straps to allow a character proficient in shields to ready or stow it on his or her back quickly and easily...'
So, on closer inspection, the quickdraw throwing shield isn't as broken as it first seems. The quickdraw shield text quoted above calls out that the character can ready or stow the thing on his or her back - so there's a built-in limit of 'how many shields can you stow on your back'... and I'm guessing that most DM's will rule 'one'.
So with both the Quickdraw Feat and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (throwing shield) (and Shield Proficiency, naturally) you could walk around with one quickdraw throwing shield on your back, and another on your arm, then fling both of them at the bad guys as a series of free actions... which, to be fair, still doesn't seem broken (just a little cheesy).
It surely can be fixed, but that doesn't make the mechanic any less terrible.
Being able to make weapon attacks as a free action (which out serious special abilities) does fit very well with system. And that it requires the GM to make a ruling based on the description of the item is just not clear enough. It could be constructed in a way that didn't force the GM to take a stance on 'how many of this free action can he take' or 'how many shields can be carried on his back'. In the latter case, RAW provides no answers (in fact it seems odd to have this limit, while a character can carry humongous amounts of gear).
Even if you limit it to two shields, one on arm and one on back, making those +1 returning throwing quick draw shields allows you to gain two extra attacks each round, for a minor gp expenditure (at midlevels) and two feats (out of which quick draw is very useful anyway).
Throwing shields should be a swift action. It is an easy fix, which relieves it of being every min-maxing fighters dream.
It'll be interesting to see if any of the weapons from The Adventurers's Armory are revisited in the Ultimate Combat book - kinda' like the sawtooth sabre's gone through three or four different versions to get to where it is today.
funny enough. It hasn't changed that much in Ultimate Combat. It is exotic (For the 20ft range) but the free action "unclasp and throw" wording is still there. The fact that you can add it at +50gp to any shield but a tower shield is nigh broken as well. If I didn't think it'd be stupid to add it to my likely to buy Celestial Shield (oh hey, bad guy, have my super-light heavy shield that lets you fall softly and would take away my ability to overland fly with my armor...) I'd invest in this. I am leaning toward more of a switch-hitter two-hander anyway, but this is definitely a trick I'm considering. If it holds up for non-exotic proficiency usage, I might still put it on my back.
Yo-Yo Shield throwing.
Returning property has the shield return to these are our threw it from just before your next turn. So you'd only get one attack and couldn't move after you made it.
A Blink back belt teleports the shield to it after the attack resolves. That would make it work.
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Is anybody actually in doubt that the intended and the reasonable reading are that preparing the shield for throwing is a free action, but actually throwing it is a normal attack?
Is anybody actually in doubt that the intended and the reasonable reading are that preparing the shield for throwing is a free action, but actually throwing it is a normal attack?
Well the text does say "allowing you to unclasp and throw it as a free action." This would seem to suggest that it can not only be unclasped, but also thrown as part of the same free action. Otherwise it would say something akin to "allowing you to unclasp it as a free action before throwing it" or some such.
That being said, I think any GM that allows a character to throw unlimited number of shields is asking for trouble or doesn't understand the concept of a Free Action.
"Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn."
Even talking as a free action doesn't allow characters to expound at length on a subject. It's usually limited to whatever you can say within a few seconds.
So it would make sense to allow the shield to be unstrapped and thrown as a free action just as the text says, but as GM I wouldn't allow more than one of such activity. If the character wanted to throw another, they could do so as part of either a Standard Action or a Full Attack action if they somehow had access to a whole stack of these things. I might be persuaded to allow that extra one as a Move action (or even a Swift) if they had a reasonable explanation as to why it was ready for use. But that would be the limit of it.
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...a throwing shield just means you can switch it from "granting a bonus to AC" to "in my hand and ready to throw" as a free action. Come on people. This is a game you play with other people, not a theoretical "BUT THE RULES CAN BE MISCONSTRUED TO MEAN THIS, THEREFORE A GM WILL BE FORCED TO LET IT WORK!!" exercise.
A throwing shield doesn't give extra attacks per round, all it does is let you avoid wasting an action to ready your shield for throwing. Calm down.
First off, I have to say my impression is that most people posting here aren't as worked up as some are inclined to think.
Second, Morphling is voicing my exact point that a GM is not forced to allow unlimited throwing just because of a liberal interpretation of the rules. In fact I would say keeping Players from abusing the rules is exactly part of a GM's job.
Third, however, a throwing shield can be readied and thrown as a free action (or an extra action if you care to view it that way) because the description of the item says exactly that. Limiting it to "ready to be thrown" but not including the actual throw into the free action is House Ruling it, not following RAW or even RAI.
The concept is hardly broken. Enemy charges in. I toss my shield at him (free) as I drop my scimitar (free) and draw my Falchion as I close with him (move) and introduce him to the business end of my blade (standard). I'm assuming a scenario like this is the general intent.
Where it becomes 'broken' is if you have a character with a Blink back belt, Quick Draw and a Quick draw Shield.
This would give the person a GM's discretion number of attacks.
Then a full attack on top of that....
Which is dumb. Makes more sense if you have to use one of your attacks to throw the shield.
Third, however, a throwing shield can be readied and thrown as a free action (or an extra action if you care to view it that way) because the description of the item says exactly that. Limiting it to "ready to be thrown" but not including the actual throw into the free action is House Ruling it, not following RAW or even RAI.
I would say if you want to throw it as a free action, that's fine. If you want to attack with it, that'll cost you.
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But there is a somewhat easy fix, if a player tries to do this: The GM is the arbitrator of how many free actions can be done during a single turn. As such you can limit it, but whether 3, 10 or 100 shield can be thrown at once, the rules doesn't help.
This. The GM has authority tel stop a player from enforcing too many free actions in a round. In this case, a simple interpretation would be that you can't throw more shields than you could make attacks in a full attack when hasted.
I would say if you want to throw it as a free action, that's fine. If you want to attack with it, that'll cost you.Third, however, a throwing shield can be readied and thrown as a free action (or an extra action if you care to view it that way) because the description of the item says exactly that. Limiting it to "ready to be thrown" but not including the actual throw into the free action is House Ruling it, not following RAW or even RAI.
I would say that's splitting a few hairs. :P And probably a rule to be discussed in the Homebrew threads should anyone care to find or start one.
I agree that the item does seem to be broken when mixing it with the right combination of gear. But it is what it is. GM's just have to keep things reasonable and make sure Players don't walk all over them with this.
It's notable that even if you could give it the returning property, which you can't since the shield can only be enchanted as a shield and not as a weapon, it would still take till the end of your turn for the shield to come back.
No deity likes followers that commit suicide unless evil.
No deity likes necroposting either.
But while we're here, Shelyn seemed pretty cool with suicide. Or at least not hating of it.
And of course there's always Naderi if we're on the subject of Shelyn.
This is where I as a GM allow the player to throw 30000 shields. And then tell him his max damage does not manage to overcome it's DR. Since he doesn't get the magic bonus to shield damage. Then I immediately ask him one more question.
"How are you still breathing and living? You just went through the motions of throwing and unstrapping 30000 times in 0 seconds. No human body can take that. Even if you want to say it took more than 0 seconds you still have quite some explaining to do. In fact at 6 seconds you are still moving so fast that you have turned yourself into a fine red mist."
No amount of rules whoring will get you out of that and consequently, the pathfinder version of hell since they technically committed suicide. No deity likes followers that commit suicide unless evil. Even then they prefer you kill others in their name rather than yourself. Also you'd be in a form of hell anyways since your god is evil.
Also none of these rules cover retrieving a shield. Ready and searching through a bag are two separate things. Unless there is an item that allows you to pull items out as a free action. Either way he's still red mist. And explaining some things to the gods.
There are no rules for moving too fast in pathfinder. Try again.
Also, with a Clustered Shots and a blink-back belt, we can make attacks with our shield at all targets in 5 range increments for ifinite damage.
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1. Turn off Brain
2. Read words, with Brain off.
3. ???
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1. Turn off Brain
2. Write words, with Brain off.3. Send words to developer with brain off.
4. Developer reads words, with brain off.
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6. Editor approves words, sends words to proofreader, with brain off.
7. Proofreader sends words to printer, with brain off.
8. ???
9. Buyers query words.
10. PFS GMs are forced to use words as written.
11. Home GMs have to waste time debating this with their group.
12. Sit back and wait for complaints about the end users using product exactly as instructed.
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Benefit: You can throw the shield as a free action. Neither a shield’s enhancement bonus to AC nor its shield spikes apply to your attack or damage rolls.
Restriction: Tower shields cannot be throwing shields.
Why is this so complicated? Yes you can throw it. Where would you like to throw it to? That guy? Ok, it lands in his square.
This does not give you extra attacks.
Benefit: You can throw the shield as a free action. Neither a shield’s enhancement bonus to AC nor its shield spikes apply to your attack or damage rolls.
Restriction: Tower shields cannot be throwing shields.
Why is this so complicated? Yes you can throw it. Where would you like to throw it to? That guy? Ok, it lands in his square.
This does not give you extra attacks.
Shall I not calculate the damage for my throwing weapons, either? I only throw those as a standard action, I don't do damage with them as a standard action.