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PF went to great effort to make "single" classing more attractive, but I still like to multi-class sometimes for the flavor and the mechanics. Some "dips" are more effective and flavorful than others, however. Anyone have any favorites/advice, either from a fluff stand point or from a mechanical one for a level (or three) dip?
For me, it's the Diviner (specialist wizard) for a one level dip. I really like the flavor of trying to reach past the normal limits of perception to gain an advantage, especially for "smart" fighters. And mechanically, muy bueno! Acting in the surprise round, sometimes even before your ambushers? Yes, please! Slight bump to init., use the APG version that let's you see around corners, 3 utility spells (feather fall never goes out of style, nor does True Strike or Endure Elements), access to spell trigger/completion items, a weapon bond (or familiar with lots of hps). What's not to love?
Oracle. For me, it is no contest. I have told my group that any character concept can be made better with a one level dip in Oracle. So far, I have yet to be shown a build that cannot, and I still stand by this assertion 100%. Reason being that since the Oracle gets so many unconnected abilities, it is ridiculously easy to cherry-pick powerful abilities. The existence of Extra Revelation and the revelation-giving Wondrous Item (the name escapes me atm) are icing on the cake.
Don't forget the +3 to all saves when taking a 2 level dip in monk.
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No one has really done anything with it yet, but I imagine the synthesist summoner has potential. I mean, how many 1 level dips can give you extra limbs?
Your BAB as a fused eidolon is based on your Eidolon's HD. So a Level 19 Fighter / 1 Synthesist gets a +1 BAB while fused.
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rogue. 3 levels gives sneak attack, some nice skill points, evasion, and a rogue trick
monk 2 levels unarmored acbonus, a nice backup weapon (unarmed), evasion, and a few feats for free
fighter 2 levels for the bonus feats
barb 2 fast movement, rage, rage power
These.
First, dipping is never a good idea for casters, for non-casters those above and also the following:
Bard 2 (Every skill is a class skill, utility spells, Versatile Performance, Inspire Courage if given prep-time)
Paladin 2 (Smite Evil, Swift Action self-healing, +Chr to all saves)
Oracle 1 (As mentioned, cherry-picking is awesome. Lore Oracles are particularly awesome)
Alchemist-Vivisectionist 1 (Sneak Attack, Mutagen, A few very nice extracts)
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No one has really done anything with it yet, but I imagine the synthesist summoner has potential. I mean, how many 1 level dips can give you extra limbs?Your BAB as a fused eidolon is based on your Eidolon's HD. So a Level 19 Fighter / 1 Synthesist gets a +1 BAB while fused.
Ah, I missed that. Oh well.
Wouldn't the fact that you never really get to the beneficial effects of your 'curse' make Oracle bad for dipping?
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rogue. 3 levels gives sneak attack, some nice skill points, evasion, and a rogue trick
monk 2 levels unarmored acbonus, a nice backup weapon (unarmed), evasion, and a few feats for free
barb 2 fast movement, rage, rage power
I would like to echo this post. These three classes stand out for me because, even if you only take a single level in any of these, you get an ability that is very hard to find in other classes. (Barb's rage and fast movement, Monk AC bonus, and the holy grail of Rogue trapfinding.)
I think Barbarian inches ahead of the other two with the superior weapons, attack, and hit die.
For any melee-focused character, fighter 3 gives 2 bonus feats, +1 against fear, and the ability to use mithril full plate without any speed penalty at all. And full BAB if the character didn't already have it.
Monk 2 with the Hungry Ghost and Sacred Mountain archetypes is fantastic for a fighter or barbarian - +3 to all saves, Punishing Kick, two bonus feats from a list that at least includes Combat Reflexes, +1 natural armor, Toughness feat, and Unarmed Strike. And this is when you use armor. Shuld he be forced to fight naked, he gets +10ft. speed, wis to AC and flurry of blows too. Note that punishing kick can be used with weapon attacks.
Wouldn't the fact that you never really get to the beneficial effects of your 'curse' make Oracle bad for dipping?Some of the curses are pretty insignificant. Mostly Tongues and Wasting.
Fair enough. I can see wasting ruining a lot of concepts, and tongues can be bad given the right situation (though rarely). So yeah, I suppose if you're ok with the negative, those could work.
I actually worked up a decent Zen-Archer monk who took a dip into Sorcerer to get a couple of 1st level spells and a bloodline feat to add shocking to his bow (Stormborn). Having the ability to Mage Armor myself a couple of times a day, stacked with wisdom bonus, stacked with +1d6 shocking damage 4 or 5 times a day works well. Plus the unlimited cantrips. Didn't need a lot of CHA to do it, just needed to not dump it. Also gave me a nice boost to will save. Couldn't find anything else that worked better for casting self armoring buffs for a level dip (although Bone Oracle was also a possibility). But I wasn't sure if Bone Armor would count as wearing armor or not, so didn't bother with it (it's a mushy situation).
EDIT : With synthesist out for summoner, I'm thinking a Zen Archer with a level dip into Synthesist would be very nasty until his armor got knocked away, given the amount of natural armor you can add.
The BaB issue for synthesists is debated. If they interact with BaB in the same way a monk's flurry ability does, then they're awesome for one level dips (pounce anyone?), otherwise they suck.
I would say an alchemist is actually pretty bad for dips as its extract only lasts for 10 min at that level. Now dipping into barb from alchemist on the other hand...
Barb is one of the kings of dips as far as I'm concerned. +4 Str and Con with a feat making it last as many rounds as I need it to? Yes please.
Fighter is amazing for melee dips as always, when you need that 1 feat to finish out a chain.
Rogue gets trapfinding and massive skill points. Honestly, almost better to have a dip of a rogue than a rogue itself...
Cavalier gets a mount at 1st level, which can be a roc if you're a halfling. Also gets challenge, which is a nice +1 to damage.
Paladin/Antipaladin, for when you really want to add your Cha to saves. Only really useful at high levels.
I'd be interested to see a fighter/magus 2 with a wand of frigid touch adding 4d6 to all of the fighter's attacks.
A level of Witch is decent for any caster with a horse who doesn't mind chuckling to himself while he rides through a dungeon to keep his party's Fortune Hex up.
Sorcerer isn't particularly good for dips any more since you can now get a sorcerer's bloodline abilities at the cost of a feat, though you can still dip into sorc for arcana.
I've never dipped into Oracle myself before but I can see how it would be useful for some melee classes. My only issue would be that most of the Oracle's abilities aren't all that great at their initial level, only becoming useful when you've taken 7 or 11 levels of Oracle. Certainly I would never dip into Oracle from a casting class.
Most of these aren't optimal selections, but I would definitely suggest fighter and barbarian for melee dips, and rogue if u don't have one in your party to begin with. Caster dips are a tough call as always but if you think your build would be better off with a 1st level ability from another class than another level of spell casting then go ahead.
The BaB issue for synthesists is debated. If they interact with BaB in the same way a monk's flurry ability does, then they're awesome for one level dips (pounce anyone?), otherwise they suck.
I wouldn't say it's up for debate. RAW is "The synthesist uses the eidolon's base attack bonus" That is pretty clear cut.
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Cavalier 1.
It gives a free teamwork feat, which in my builds, is Outflank.
It gives tactician class feature to use the Outflank teamwork feat.
The mount, challenge, and weapon/armor proficiencies aren't the important parts of the dip.
And depending on the level 2 cavalier order ability, it's acceptable to stay in it for 1 more level.
Fighter
Rogue
Barbarian
In that order any melee build can benefit from a dip in one of these classes. And as others have said, casters should avoid dipping, it is almost never worth it, except in very few specific cases.
2 lvl paladin any one? Cha to all saves, smite if needed, D10 HD, Full BaB, weapons, and armor prof.
Yean I think barb is 1st, but Paladin is a close 2nd if you don't mind the alignment that is.
Paladin dip is incredible for cha based casters going into EK.
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Alchemist 2. Fivhter for the rest. Take Vestigal Arm as a discovery, then Extra Discovery for it again. Proceed to dual wield falchions or greatswords andbuff yourself up with enlarge person extract and mutagen.
Echoing many of the above sentiments:
For a one-time "dip" Barbarian 2nd is king for any non-lawful character. You get a lot of bang out of the first 2 levels, uncanny dodge (on memory) being of as much benefit as the +4 morale bonus to Str and Con, Acrobatics and Perception as class skills (in addition to a nice bump of skills in general).
Lawful nastiness is Paladin 2nd and Monk 2nd or even as high as 3rd or 4th.
Rogue 2nd also works, depending on the "build", although I would rate this third.
Ranger gets some goodies, but does best as the class one dips out of rather than into, as does Fighter.
Diviner specialist Wizard or a similar level of Sorceror for the endure elements, feather fall, mage armor, shield and true strike definitely rocks! One lesser rod of still metamagic takes care of the pesky somatic components for mage armor and shield. Added bonus for both from unlocking spell trigger items. Diviner wizard probably trumps sorceror from the always able to act in the surprise round. However, it is worth noting - as it was already - that the arcane bloodline gets arcane bond same as the wizard. With UM your sorceror level gets less MAD if you pick up Sage (INT-based) or Empyreal (WIS-based).
Great stuff!
Rods of still metamagic don't actually exist.
With UM your sorceror level gets less MAD if you pick up Sage (INT-based) or Empyreal (WIS-based).
Great stuff!
Oh... I had over looked that. I see a Empyreal Blood line Battle Sorcerer with the Eldritch Heritage draconic bloodline feat tree being taken. Sometime in the near future. Just wish I could do it the other way around though. Character is more draconic than celestial in nature.
Rods of still metamagic don't actually exist.
scowls at his core rulebook
Well, that's interesting. I figured if you have Silent, you would have Still. Oh well. :)
Oh... I had over looked that. I see a Empyreal Blood line Battle Sorcerer with the Eldritch Heritage draconic bloodline feat tree being taken. Sometime in the near future. Just wish I could do it the other way around though. Character is more draconic than celestial in nature.With UM your sorceror level gets less MAD if you pick up Sage (INT-based) or Empyreal (WIS-based).
Great stuff!
Bloodline feats are still CHA based - they don't get the other goodies.
Bloodline feats are still CHA based - they don't get the other goodies.Oh... I had over looked that. I see a Empyreal Blood line Battle Sorcerer with the Eldritch Heritage draconic bloodline feat tree being taken. Sometime in the near future. Just wish I could do it the other way around though. Character is more draconic than celestial in nature.With UM your sorceror level gets less MAD if you pick up Sage (INT-based) or Empyreal (WIS-based).
Great stuff!
.... The wording of the Empreal Bloodline is a little wonky and may suggest that your bloodline powers may switch over to Wis even if taken by feats, but I think you are probably right.... DOH.
P.S.
Guess I need a Draconic race or template again, oh well.
Rods of still metamagic don't actually exist.scowls at his core rulebook
Well, that's interesting. I figured if you have Silent, you would have Still. Oh well. :)
I think it's because Still spell removes movement needs for spells, and to use a rod...you'd need to move.
The BaB issue for synthesists is debated. If they interact with BaB in the same way a monk's flurry ability does, then they're awesome for one level dips (pounce anyone?), otherwise they suck.I wouldn't say it's up for debate. RAW is "The synthesist uses the eidolon's base attack bonus" That is pretty clear cut.
For his synthesist levels. Synthesist 1, fighter 2 uses ediliin bab + 2 levels of fighter bab for total bab. Just like every other multi class.
Bloodline feats are still CHA based - they don't get the other goodies.Oh... I had over looked that. I see a Empyreal Blood line Battle Sorcerer with the Eldritch Heritage draconic bloodline feat tree being taken. Sometime in the near future. Just wish I could do it the other way around though. Character is more draconic than celestial in nature.With UM your sorceror level gets less MAD if you pick up Sage (INT-based) or Empyreal (WIS-based).
Great stuff!
.... The wording of the Empreal Bloodline is a little wonky and may suggest that your bloodline powers may switch over to Wis even if taken by feats, but I think you are probably right.... DOH.
P.S.
Guess I need a Draconic race or template again, oh well.
Bloodline Arcana: Unlike most sorcerers whose innate magic is powered by force of personality, you use pure willpower to master and fuel your magic. You use your Wisdom, rather than your Charisma, to determine all class features and effects relating to your sorcerer class, such as bonus spells per day, maximum spell level you can cast, and the save DCs of your spells. You gain a +2 bonus on all Heal and Knowledge (religion) checks.
Bloodline Arcana: Unlike most sorcerers, whose innate magic is powered by force of personality, you use your intellect to understand and master your mystic powers. You use your Intelligence, rather than your Charisma, to determine all class features and effects relating to your sorcerer class, such as bonus spells per day, the maximum spell level you can cast, the save DCs of your spells, and the number of daily uses of your bloodline powers. You gain a +2 bonus on all Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft checks.
Eldritch Heritage
You are descended from a long line of sorcerers, and some portion of their power f lows in your veins.
Prerequisites: Cha 13, Skill Focus with the class skill of bloodline selected for this feat (see below), character level 3rd.
Benefit: Select one sorcerer bloodline. You must have Skill focus in the class skill that bloodline grants to a sorcerer at 1st level (for example, Heal for the celestial bloodline). This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have. You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities.
Both Sage and Empyrean say you use the relevant stat instead of Cha for ALL class features and effects. Bloodline powers are class features and effects. Both then go on to list an example, but it's not exhaustive. Such as means 'example', not that it doesn't apply to things not on the list. For example, cars are mechanical vehicles that seat 2 to 4 people and have 2 to 4 doors, such as the Ford Focus, Chevy Volt, and Volkswagen Jetta. The preceding sentence does not say that only those 3 vehicles are cars, it lists them as examples.
The eldritch Heritage feat specifically calls them out as 'Sorcerer Abilities' and gives you an effective sorcerer level. Since the Empyrean and Sage abilities specifically state you use Stat <blah> for all sorcerer effects and such, you use them for the Eldritch Heritage granted powers as well.
The Inquisitor is a nice 1 level dip. You get a ton of class skills, 6 skill points, 2 good saves, a Domain power, Judgment 1/day, spells, and stern gaze. Going 4 levels is better as you get cunning initiative, detect alignment, track, solo tactics, a teamwork feat, you 3/level judgment increases and you get it 2 times per day which allow you to take Judgment surge.
I like the fairly obvious ones: Fighter (BAB and combat abilities), Rogue (great way to get a bunch of class skills and skill points, really can help round out a character concept), and Ranger (good reflex in addition to fort, decent class skills and skill points, BAB/weapon prof). Favorite multiclass combo is probably Ranger/Rogue.
Wouldn't the fact that you never really get to the beneficial effects of your 'curse' make Oracle bad for dipping?
Oh, but you do. You gain benefits from curses at a rate of 1/2 your class level in non-Oracle classes. A Fighter 8/Oracle 1 gets the 5th level bonus, for example.
Don't have my stuff in front of me right now...
But I believe Sorcerer 1 gives a +2 will saves, a few nice spells, and basically unlimited cantrips (Detect magic)
THAT was a nice dip...
Summoner/master summoner. Gain 0 zero level spells, a pet, and summons that last minutes instead of rounds...plus its a standard action instead of full round to summon them. Down side is it would only be summon monster 1
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I'm coming round to thinking that Magus is actually much better as a 4 level dip for an otherwise full-BAB character than it is as a class in itself.
You get Spell Combat at level 1 - it doesn't scale.
You get Spellstrike at level 2 - it doesn't scale.
... and those are the two main 'powers' of the class.
Going to level 3 gives you an Arcana, and going to level 4 gives you Spell Recall and second-level spells. Anything after that and you're taking more than the +1 BAB hit you took by dipping in the first place.
Making it a 4 level dip into the Hexcrafter Magus archetype is even better - since you gain access to both Magus Arcana and Witch Hexes (just buy 'em with the 'extra X' Feats when you want 'em).
All you really lose is 1 BAB and 4 Hit Points (assuming your otherwise a Fighter, for example), but you gain some spells, the ability to use various wands, a spellbook you can fill up with all the first and level Magus spells you want, the ability to cast in (light) armour, the ability to use Spell Combat, the ability to use Spellstrike, the ability to trade Feats for Magus Arcana (and Witch Hexes too, if you go Hexcrafter), and the ability to give your weapons a little magic boost as well.
All in all, I'd say it's pretty good.
On the other hand, most of the higher-level Magus stuff is so-so at best, and you end up trailing being both the straight melee characters and the full spellcasters if you try to go Magus all the way.
As always, IMHO...
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Oracle. For me, it is no contest. I have told my group that any character concept can be made better with a one level dip in Oracle. So far, I have yet to be shown a build that cannot, and I still stand by this assertion 100%. Reason being that since the Oracle gets so many unconnected abilities, it is ridiculously easy to cherry-pick powerful abilities. The existence of Extra Revelation and the revelation-giving Wondrous Item (the name escapes me atm) are icing on the cake.
So, aside from Sidestep Secret, what would you be looking for? What would be the best dip for each mystery?
And, as for the Ring of Revelation, wouldn't just having the UMD work out well for you, and just skip the class all together?
Inquisitor 2 for a wisdom based class for domain dip, initiative bonus, bonus to knowledge skills for monsters, judgements, detect alignment, etc. I just can decide between a wizard, rogue or inquisitor for my zen archer monk.
Which book is "vivisectionist" in?
ultimate magic there is also a preview on the blog it is an alchemist archtype.
Bloodline feats are still CHA based - they don't get the other goodies.Oh... I had over looked that. I see a Empyreal Blood line Battle Sorcerer with the Eldritch Heritage draconic bloodline feat tree being taken. Sometime in the near future. Just wish I could do it the other way around though. Character is more draconic than celestial in nature.With UM your sorceror level gets less MAD if you pick up Sage (INT-based) or Empyreal (WIS-based).
Great stuff!
.... The wording of the Empreal Bloodline is a little wonky and may suggest that your bloodline powers may switch over to Wis even if taken by feats, but I think you are probably right.... DOH.
P.S.
Guess I need a Draconic race or template again, oh well.
Bloodline Arcana: Unlike most sorcerers whose innate magic is powered by force of personality, you use pure willpower to master and fuel your magic. You use your Wisdom, rather than your Charisma, to determine all class features and effects relating to your sorcerer class, such as bonus spells per day, maximum spell level you can cast, and the save DCs of your spells. You gain a +2 bonus on all Heal and Knowledge (religion) checks.
Bloodline Arcana: Unlike most sorcerers, whose innate magic is powered by force of personality, you use your intellect to understand and master your mystic powers. You use your Intelligence, rather than your Charisma, to determine all class features and effects relating to your sorcerer class, such as bonus spells per day, the maximum spell level you can cast, the save DCs of your spells, and the number of daily uses of your bloodline powers. You gain a +2 bonus on all Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft checks.
...
Eldritch Heritage
You are descended from a long line of sorcerers, and some portion of their power f
That is up for my GM to decide. Wish it was this way though. This is only 1 power that I want that runs on CHA any way in the draconic blood line.
Hmmm so a Barb with a one level dip into Oracle [lame] at level 1/10 would have the equivalent of tireless rage...This sounds very interesting and could allow a push to 1/12/7fighter(1/11/8f?] for feats and weapon training...so a Barb with access to furious weapons and gloves of duelling and from 15-16 feats
Actually 1 Oracle[lame]/1Barbarian/18X would be a nice cheap way to get tireless rage. Not sure which class could use it best however?
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4 levels of alchemist for any melee build!
1) Alchemical Allocation + Extend Potion + Lvl 20 potion of heroism = unlimited +2 to hit, +2 to all saves.
2) 40 minutes of mutagen (+4 to strength)
3) Vivisectionist gives 2d6 of sneak attack
4) Provides a bunch of skills (such as disable device)
5) Some handy extracts (englarge person, healing, etc.)
Summary: for a 4 level dip, you get +7 to hit (+3 BAB, +2 str, +2 Heroism)- which means a BETTER to-hit than if you just took 4 levels of fighter), +2 damage, +2 to all saves, 2d6 sneak attack, and a bunch more utility in the form of skills and extracts.
BY far and away, this seems like the best melee dip to me.
+1 for junkie warrior build