Howie23 |
5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Please do not debate rules in this thread
In the spirit of the Frequently Unknown Rules thread, this thread is for the group think collection of those rules or rules topics that are highly debated, possibly unresolvable due to contradiction or ambiguity, or otherwise nearly impossible to obtain a meeting of the mind. I will maintain a summary list, as done for the Frequently Unknown Rules thread, along with links to the detailed argument threads.
In a perfect world, identify the rules issue, the conflicting positions, and the rules source that gives rise to the problem. Provide links to either existing discussions on the topic, or start new threads with links here if appropriate. If a position has been misrepresented, post your rebuttal and then take the discussion elsewhere, with a link from here to that thread.
Please do not debate rules in this thread
Additionally, if the message hasn't gotten across,
Please do not debate rules in this thread.
0gre |
The more controversial a rule is the more people get upset when a blog post is released that clarifies it. Look at the animal companion blog.
That said the fuzziest rules area in the game is probably stealth.
I imagine there will be much gnashing of teeth and groaning if/ when those rules are clarified though.
Jiggy RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
Carbon D. Metric |
The more controversial a rule is the more people get upset when a blog post is released that clarifies it. Look at the animal companion blog.
That said the fuzziest rules area in the game is probably stealth.
I imagine there will be much gnashing of teeth and groaning if/ when those rules are clarified though.
That and how crafting interacts with the WBL table.
Sometimes it is best to have an unclear position on some subjects, simply to leave it open to interpretation so DM's have the ability to say no at the table.
Beckett |
There's one about
the Defending weapon property: do you need to actually attack with said weapon to ativate the propety.
potions: do you get a save if you "volintarily" take a potion you believe to be something else, but turns out to be a "harmful" effect (such as Cure Light vs Inflict Light).
what constitutes "wielding" an item: holding it at the ready, being able to threaten with it, or actually making an attack with it.
what constitutes "armor" for the Magical Vestment spell: various non-armor chart things v armor chart things only.
minimume Channel Energy
0gre |
That and how crafting interacts with the WBL table.
Eh. Wealth by level is primarily used by people building characters at higher levels. Pathfinder essentially punts character creations decisions to the individual groups, even at first level. It's along the same lines as "Do we use 15 point buy or 25 point buy?".
The other thing which those tables are used for is for GMs building treasure for encounters and again they are essentially a guideline for the GM to follow not really a hard/ fast 'rule'.
I wouldn't expect any discussion of these things from Paizo to include any more rules content than discussion of point buy versus 4d6.
Madcap Storm King |
The more controversial a rule is the more people get upset when a blog post is released that clarifies it. Look at the animal companion blog.
That said the fuzziest rules area in the game is probably stealth.
I imagine there will be much gnashing of teeth and groaning if/ when those rules are clarified though.
I second this. Though my stealth house rules have not even raised an eyebrow in my group and I've been running for a year and a half.
So I guess it needs clarification, but I don't need it to be clarified? I'm not making a very good argument, am I.
LilithsThrall |
Carbon D. Metric wrote:That and how crafting interacts with the WBL table.Eh. Wealth by level is primarily used by people building characters at higher levels. Pathfinder essentially punts character creations decisions to the individual groups, even at first level. It's along the same lines as "Do we use 15 point buy or 25 point buy?".
The other thing which those tables are used for is for GMs building treasure for encounters and again they are essentially a guideline for the GM to follow not really a hard/ fast 'rule'.
I wouldn't expect any discussion of these things from Paizo to include any more rules content than discussion of point buy versus 4d6.
Wealth of a character impacts their power. This, in turn, affects appropriate challenge ratings of encounters. Also, when different characters in a party consistently have different amounts of wealth, this makes one character generally second fiddle to the other character.
In short, ignoring WBL (or using bizarre interpretations of words like 'wealth') impacts game balance in a destructive manner.
Miranda |
There's a whole thread around being able to make potions of any kind by taking a DC+5 penalty for not knowing the spell because they're use activated.
I think this was a design oversight, but it is a perfectly valid interpretation of RAW.
Unfortunately this leads to spell list shopping - what's the most powerful spell you can find on a spell list of level 1-3?
bartgroks |
The more controversial a rule is the more people get upset when a blog post is released that clarifies it. Look at the animal companion blog.
That said the fuzziest rules area in the game is probably stealth.
I imagine there will be much gnashing of teeth and groaning if/ when those rules are clarified though.
What Animal Companion blog. I did a quick search of the site but I unsure what it was that was so controversial...
0gre |
Wealth of a character impacts their power. This, in turn, affects appropriate challenge ratings of encounters. Also, when different characters in a party consistently have different amounts of wealth, this makes one character generally second fiddle to the other character.
In short, ignoring WBL (or using bizarre interpretations of words like 'wealth') impacts game balance in a destructive manner.
Obviously it affects character power. In an ongoing game players negotiate wealth distribution and GMs use the appropriate table to place treasure (or use the AP/ module). In general crafting works fine in ongoing game without the GM mucking with things because of the constraints inherent in the game.
The only time WBL really clashes with crafting is when a new character starts at higher levels. How the GM handles gear and stats for new players is one of those personal things every group negotiates themselves along with things like whether you use the Leadership feat or not. All these decisions affect balance.
0gre |
0gre wrote:What Animal Companion blog. I did a quick search of the site but I unsure what it was that was so controversial...The more controversial a rule is the more people get upset when a blog post is released that clarifies it. Look at the animal companion blog.
That said the fuzziest rules area in the game is probably stealth.
I imagine there will be much gnashing of teeth and groaning if/ when those rules are clarified though.
I guess it was more in the PFS section than the main blog comments. I think the most controversial bit was that you needed to use Handle Animal regardless of your animal's intelligence.
Talynonyx |
I still challenge anyone to prove using the core rule book that initiative is rolled with a 1d20 :-)
I do hope that this thread develops into some interesting discussions as I know there are some rules that people would like clarification on.
I am going to add this to my list to watch.
"An initiative check is a Dexterity check."
"The normal take 10 and take 20 rules apply for ability checks."0gre |
I still challenge anyone to prove using the core rule book that initiative is rolled with a 1d20 :-)
An initiative roll is a Dexterity Check (it is explicitly labeled as such in the Initiative section). In the very first chapter under common terms:
"Check: A check is a d20 roll which may or may not be modified by another value. The most common types are attack rolls, skill checks, and saving throws."
"The normal take 10 and take 20 rules apply for ability checks."
Take 10 is listed under 'Using Skills', not under the general heading of checks.
"Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check..."
DGRM44 |
DGRM44 wrote:I still challenge anyone to prove using the core rule book that initiative is rolled with a 1d20 :-)
I do hope that this thread develops into some interesting discussions as I know there are some rules that people would like clarification on.
I am going to add this to my list to watch.
"An initiative check is a Dexterity check."
"The normal take 10 and take 20 rules apply for ability checks."
So many connecting of the dots for such a simple thing.
LilithsThrall |
In an ongoing game players negotiate wealth distribution and GMs use the appropriate table to place treasure (or use the AP/ module).
What players negotiate is "who can use this new item the best?" and not "John's got X amount of assets and Ralph has Y amount, since John has more, this new gold should go to Ralph".
As for the rest of your post, I have no idea how you got from the point above to draw the conclusion you did in the rest of your post.
0gre |
0gre wrote:In an ongoing game players negotiate wealth distribution and GMs use the appropriate table to place treasure (or use the AP/ module).What players negotiate is "who can use this new item the best?" and not "John's got X amount of assets and Ralph has Y amount, since John has more, this new gold should go to Ralph".
Yes. You get stuff, players distribute it or sell it. I'm not sure what you would call that other than distributing wealth... organizing found stuff? I think you are looking for some sort of disagreement where there is none.
c873788 |
The more controversial a rule is the more people get upset when a blog post is released that clarifies it. Look at the animal companion blog.
That said the fuzziest rules area in the game is probably stealth.
I imagine there will be much gnashing of teeth and groaning if/ when those rules are clarified though.
Don't just leave it at Stealth. You need to add HIPS and whether Darkvision impacts on HIPS. These should be included in the explanation given when Stealth is properly clarified.
wraithstrike |
identify the rules issue, the conflicting positions, and the rules source that gives rise to the problem. Provide links to either existing discussions on the topic, or start new threads with links here if appropriate. If a position has been misrepresented, post your rebuttal and then take the discussion elsewhere, with a link from here to that thread.
I think anything other than what is bolded will start a debate. So far not many things mentioned are up for debate.
stringburka |
stringburka wrote:0gre wrote:Does scent automatically detect invisible people or does it require perception rolls?Mosaic wrote:Scent vs. InvisibilityWhat is debatable about that?If by detect you mean find the square the answer is yes. If by detect you mean ignore miss chance the answer is no.
I personally do not see any clear-cut rules support for that position, but let's not debate it here. There's been some discussion on and off, but I don't think anyone has reached any position on it.
wraithstrike |
wraithstrike wrote:I personally do not see any clear-cut rules support for that position, but let's not debate it here. There's been some discussion on and off, but I don't think anyone has reached any position on it.stringburka wrote:0gre wrote:Does scent automatically detect invisible people or does it require perception rolls?Mosaic wrote:Scent vs. InvisibilityWhat is debatable about that?If by detect you mean find the square the answer is yes. If by detect you mean ignore miss chance the answer is no.
Any rule is debatable. I have had people tell me I was wrong even when the book/PRD said otherwise. Only a dev got them to back off, and sometimes they argued with them too. I am too lazy to look the rules up right now, but if nobody makes a thread on it I will try to link the supporting rules later. It is one of those connect the dot(rules) things.
PS:I thought I have saw it clarified several times before. I will repost here when I find proof.
PS2:Would you accept scent working similar to blindsense with regard to invisibility as proof? Which version of detect are you using from my last post?
Quandary |
1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I DO think the rules are confusing.
The Scent ability doesn´t mention any interaction with Perception,
it could well be automatic if you rely on that section´s wording.
But in the Perception skill, Scent is said to give a bonus to detect creatures (´to detect a scent´),
and of course Perception is opposed by Stealth AND INVISIBILITY. Rationally, I don´t know how Invisibility can affect SCENT, but they are both posited as ´opposed forces´ per the Perception rules.
Then again, Perception says:
So perhaps the intent is that Scent automatically succeeds WITHIN IT´S RANGE, and that outside that range you just get the bonus to Perception. But while that´s made clear for tremorsense, it´s NOT made clear for Scent, even though they´re right next to each other in the same section.
Tarlane |
While it is a bit of a corner case, there was a(surprisingly civil) discussion about glitterdust that we couldn't come to a consensus on and never heard from a dev about. It could be something good to mention if invisibility ever gets a blog post.
The argument was based around two things:
If an invisible creature is hit with glitterdust can he cast invisibility again, causing the dust that coats him to go invisible as well like a worn object, or does it keep him visible?
Can you glitterdust an incorporeal creature?
The dispute was that glitterdust functions magically so the glow from it may work like faerie fire and show where a creature is even after it goes invisible again, however it is a 'creation' spell so it seems to create a physical dust that could be turned invisible. Would the glowing dust completely fade out with invisibility, would it cause the creature to have a glow like it has a light source(you would know its square but still have miss chance), or would the dust just be counteracted?
The second part came up based on it being a creation spell, since there is a physical dust created can you hit a incorporeal creature with it? Something physical wouldn't affect it, but the dust is magically created. The rules are mostly silent about how incorporeality interacts with non-damaging spells.
Beckett |
Scent automatically succeeds in detecting a presence, own to the 5ft square under most conditions. It does not tell you exactly what it is, nor does it let you automatically see it.
If it is dark, or the target is invisible, you just know it i there, which might allow you a Perception check, or a chance to disbelieve an illusion, or something along the lines.
If you can't actully percieve it though, such as from Cover, Concealment, Invisibility, or whatever, you still take all the normal penulties, except that you don't have to pick a square you believe it iss in. You know that.
For Glitterddust, I believe that creatures that either enter later, or try to become invisible again woud still be covered in the dust. It has a duration of Rnds/Level, and it does talk about creature being blinded later, so I think the Invis part would work the same way.
stringburka |
On the scent thing: To me, there's two possible interpretations.
1. A creature with scent automatically detects anything that has a scent. No need to roll perception.
RAW support: The ability doesn't mention having to make a perception vs. stealth roll, and in the 5 ft. range the wording make it sound like it's automatic.
2. A creature with can detect invisible creatures by detecting their scent, gaining a +8 bonus on the perception roll.
RAW support: The ability doesn't say you can bypass stealth, and the perception skill has specifics for detecting scents that seem to insinuate it's not automatic. Also, interpretation one is basically equal to blindsense which is different in the wording.
Or possibly a third; the creature has to make perception checks until the target is within 5ft, there it's automatic.
None of these are conclusive or clear-cut like a wording in the scent specifying "a creature with scent doesn't need to make perception rolls to detect scents within 30ft." or "a creature with scent still has to make the usual perception checks to detect a creature using stealth". I'm slightly in favor of the second interpretation, and it's that one where using at my table, but I can very well see the case for the first interpretation too.
EDIT: And this is all in respect to "knowing the creature is there", not "negating miss chance".
Howie23 |
I'm following the general lead and just listing the topics rather than the full subject submission I suggested in the original post. Please feel free to do the same. I suspect it will get more coverage this way anyway. :)
Two-Weapon Fighting: Do penalties apply to any use of two weapons or only those forms of use that gain an additional attack?
Paladin Detect Magic: how does the language associated with the class ability play out as far as what the paladin can do and how quickly?
Quicken Spell: Can quicken spell be applied to enlarge person and other spells with a 1 round casting time?
The-Goat-Who-Is-So-Naive-As-To-Be-Huggable
Howie23 |
As I recall, there's still debate as to whether or not a Trip combat maneuver executed while wielding a non-trip weapon actually *uses* said weapon.
This has been address in the FAQ. Convenient Link.
Quandary |
BTW, that Trip FAQ (pending Errata) had broad unanswered implications, e.g. for Sunders with weapons without Sunder Quality, and for Class Abilities, etc, which allow performing Maneuvers such as Bull-Rush with a Weapon (e.g. Barbarian Knockback) when they normally aren´t. Likewise, ´non-Weapon´ Maneuvers could be clarified as to their vector when NOT using a weapon (including Grapple, re: Natural Reach), and whether they all would have a ´Weapon Focus´ option for each such maneuver like Grapple does (and how this potentially stacks when you DO deliver them via a weapon which you also have Weapon Focus for)
Jiggy RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
Jiggy wrote:As I recall, there's still debate as to whether or not a Trip combat maneuver executed while wielding a non-trip weapon actually *uses* said weapon.This has been address in the FAQ. Convenient Link.
Yeah, I've read that, and read discussion referencing it, and there are still arguments.
Not to start the Trip Discussion here, but to illustrate the existence of lingering debate:
What you linked seems to clearly separate the trip attempt from the non-trip weapon - no mechanical difference between unarmed and +5 longsword, "sword doesn't help you make the trip attempt", etc. However, I have heard some parties claim that you *do* actually use the non-trip weapon to make the attempt, you just don't get any associated bonuses (enhancement, Weapon Focus, etc). I'm a little fuzzy on why that would matter if you're not getting the bonuses anyway, though there were some prognostications of "there's going to be eratta, just wait".
So apparently the existing statement isn't enough - it seems we need a no-room-for-error "Yes you use the weapon but don't apply its bonuses" or "No you don't use the weapon at all". Thus, I suggest that this issue still belongs in this thread as something to be addressed. Even so, your thread, not mine, so I'll defer to whatever the good goat decides. :)
ciretose |
Please do not debate rules in this thread
In the spirit of the Frequently Unknown Rules thread, this thread is for the group think collection of those rules or rules topics that are highly debated, possibly unresolvable due to contradiction or ambiguity, or otherwise nearly impossible to obtain a meeting of the mind. I will maintain a summary list, as done for the Frequently Unknown Rules thread, along with links to the detailed argument threads.
In a perfect world, identify the rules issue, the conflicting positions, and the rules source that gives rise to the problem. Provide links to either existing discussions on the topic, or start new threads with links here if appropriate. If a position has been misrepresented, post your rebuttal and then take the discussion elsewhere, with a link from here to that thread.
Please do not debate rules in this thread
Additionally, if the message hasn't gotten across,
Please do not debate rules in this thread.
All the charisma discussions threads seem to approach 1000 posts, so that seems a grey area for some.
Howie23 |
1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
PF Rules Crying Out for Clarification (through post 44)
Rule Subject Crying Out For Clarification
Existing Resources:
FAQs and other Reference Pages:
Pathfinder Core Rulebook FAQ
Pathfinder Bestiary FAQ
Pathfinder Advanced Player’s Guide FAQ
D&D 3.5 Resources: (Note, these are not valued by everyone, in part due to differences of opinion in how PF relates to SRD/D&D 3.5. But when rules have not changed, they often serve as a source for answers on contentious subjects)
D&D 3.5 Final FAQ
D&D Rules of the Game Archive
This is a list compiled by the users of http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards. The contents are those rules and rule areas that frequently come up as being in need of FAQ, errata, blog treatment, or another form of clarification. In some cases, developers have provided in-forum rulings on these matters, but they have also identified that these rulings are not official.
Unsorted List
1. Can the disarm manouver be used against a shield?
2. How WbL interact with consumables, spellbooks, etc?
3. Does the imbiber of a potion get a save vs. a potion so consumed? Does it matter if the potion turns out to be harmful?
4. What constitutes wielding an item? Is it sufficient to hold it, be able to threaten with it, or must one have made an attack with it?
5. What constitutes armor for the target of the magical vestment category of spells? Is clothing sufficient?
6. Miminume channel energy (please clarify…what is meant by this?)
7. The Synthesist. All of it.
8. Two-Weapon Fighting: Do penalties apply to any use of two weapons or only those forms of use that gain an additional attack?
9. Paladin Detect Magic: how does the language associated with the class ability play out as far as what the paladin can do and how quickly?
10. Quicken Spell: Can quicken spell be applied to enlarge person and other spells with a 1 round casting time?
Major Subject: Stealth (including invisibility)
1. Light and Darkness sources
2. Detect magic vs. invisibility
3. Scent vs. invisibility (automatic or requires perception check?)
4. How does HIPS work?
5. How does darkvision interact with HIPS?
6. How do glitterdust and invisibility interact?
Major Subject: Magic Item Creation
1. What is the CL of an item for Spellcraft DC? Is this defined by the item description or the level that it is created at?
2. What is different for Potions, Scrolls, and/or Wands?
3. Can the spell contained in a potion be obviated by a higher Spellcraft DC?
Major Subject: Grapple
1. What does the –20 option for Improved Grab do?
2. Can Greater Grapple be used on the same turn as starting a grapple?
3. When is Dex bonus to AC lost during a grapple, by whom, and against whom? How does this vary between grappled and pinned conditions?
Proposed Questions That Have Been Addressed in FAQ:
1. Does the trip manouver with a weapon require the use of a weapon with the Trip Property? (Sort of Answered)
2. Does a weapon with the defensive property have to be used to attack to gain the benefits of the property?
Jiggy RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
Proposed Questions That Have Been Addressed in FAQ:
1. Does the trip manouver with a weapon require the use of a weapon with the Trip Property? (Sort of Answered)
I guess I need to further clarify: the contention I've seen is entirely unrelated to weapons with the Trip quality. Rather, in an instance in which a character's only wielded weapon is not a trip weapon, does a trip attempt use said non-trip weapon or does it use your foot?
I can't remember why it's supposed to matter, since the weapon's bonuses are explicitly stated not to apply, but I don't want to leave a very adamant party unrepresented.
InVinoVeritas |
Does someone wielding the held charge of a touch attack spell discharge the spell into the target when the wielder performs...
...a grapple? (This is pretty definitively yes.)
...a trip?
...a bull rush?
...an overrun?
...a reposition?
...a drag?
Do gauntlets cause the wielder's held charge to discharge?
How about spiked gauntlets? Spiked armor? A shield? If not, can a caster bash with the shield in one hand and wield the touch attack in the other?
mdt |
1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Magic Item Creation in general needs to be addressed with a baseball bat and beaten into something resembling coherency. Here's a few specifics...
Bypassing Prerequisites by using +5 DC rule :
A) Can it be used to make a potion if you can't cast the spell (Already on the list, repeated for completeness).
B) Can you take +5 to bypass the Caster Level Special Requirement for Weapon Enchantment (Bonus x 3 in Level).
C) Can you take +5 to bypass the Caster Level Special Requirement for Armor Enchantment (Bonus x 3 in Level).
D) If you can bypass level requirement for enchanting enhancements, is it +5 per Level you don't meet, or +5 overall (meaning a level 5 enchanter only take a +5 to make a +2, a +3, a +4 or a +5 item, or does the penalty scale?).
E) Can unique Magic weapons/armor be further enhanced (IE: +5 Celestial Armor), and if so, how does one do that. Or is it strictly DM Fiat and not covered under the rules (I see this one come up every week or two).
F) Does WBL affect starting characters with magic item creation feats? In other words, if a character is starting at level 10, and has 62,000gp to spend on equipment, is he allowed to buy equipment at half-cost and say he created them himself? (Again, repeated for completeness and clarity, personally, I believe that WBL means he can't get items cheap by taking the feat. My logic being that if you got a 10,000 gp item in game, you'd sell it for half value and use that to make your 10,000gp replacement, therefore your WBL represents the total resources you got, with or without crafting feats, but a lot of people get very vehement and flamestrikey if you make that opinion known on here).
mdt |
I can't remember why it's supposed to matter, since the weapon's bonuses are explicitly stated not to apply, but I don't want to leave a very adamant party unrepresented.
I can expand on that one.
Freddy the Fighter has Combat Patrol, Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical, Spiked Armor, and a Bardiche. He set's up a combat patrol. Anyone entering his area he can trip with the Bardiche at 10 feet away as his Bardiche. If he fails by 10, unless they have a reach weapon themselves, they can't get their AoO against anything but his weapon (as a sunder attempt I believe is the only valid one). Which can easily be taken care of by making his bardiche Adamantine. If he trips someone, and they get up, he can get an AoO on them for standing and he's more likely to crit (due to their prone penalties at the AoO). Basically, it let's you trip at range with any reach weapon and negate most of the penalty for tripping.