FIFYGeez you two, have you no respect for the sanctity of the katana? If this thread has taught us anything, it is that katanas are serious business. They are (for some reason) special compared to every other sword in human history, and must be treated as such (apparently)! Now let us all bow our heads in prayer to this almighty piece of sharp, slightly curved metal.
Okay I'm done...
Katana serious...
People who take game rules too seriously are Pony!!!
Quiet you.
ARE YOU TRYING TO SUMMON SEBASTIAN!!!
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FIFYGeez you two, have you no respect for the sanctity of the katana? If this thread has taught us anything, it is that katanas are serious business. They are (for some reason) special compared to every other sword in human history, and must be treated as such (apparently)! Now let us all bow our heads in prayer to this almighty piece of sharp, slightly curved metal.
Okay I'm done...
Katana serious...
People who take game rules too seriously are Pony!!!
Quiet you.
ARE YOU TRYING TO SUMMON SEBASTIAN!!!
Why not, I am already on his enemies list.
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To the left of you is outer space?In outer space???Japan, where is that? Is that west of here?<------------- That way.So are you saying that this explains the Democrats?
~Ducks~
Well, following the other arrow right would do the same . . .
Andy why would you need to duck? Some Democrats would take it as a compliment: they would have been out in outer space where the current space program is not. Or maybe that they restored the space program.
If a ray goes on to infinity, and the nothingness outside the universe does not loop, does the ray end in the nothingness outside the universe (only according to one theory, of course)?
UchigatanaIf you take away the "a" you have Uchigatan. Now, what is "Uchi" in Swedish . . .
"disemboweling."
The Ni To Ichi Way of strategy is recorded in this the Book of the Void.
What is called the spirit of the void is where there is nothing. It is not included in man's knowledge. Of course the void is nothingness. By knowing things that exist, you can know that which does not exist. That is the void.
People in this world look at things mistakenly, and think that what they do not understand must be the void. This is not the true void. It is bewilderment.
In the Way of strategy, also, those who study as warriors think that whatever they cannot understand in their craft is the void. This is not the true void.
To attain the Way of strategy as a warrior you must study fully other martial arts and not deviate even a little from the Way of the warrior. With your spirit settled, accumulate practice day by day, and hour by hour. Polish the twofold spirit heart and mind, and sharpen the twofold gaze perception and sight. When your spirit is not in the least clouded, when the clouds of bewilderment clear away, there is the true void.
Until you realise the true Way, whether in Buddhism or in common sense, you may think that things are correct and in order. However, if we look at things objectively, from the viewpoint of laws of the world, we see various doctrines departing from the true Way. Know well this spirit, and with forthrightness as the foundation and the true spirit as the Way. Enact strategy broadly, correctly and openly.
Then you will come to think of things in a wide sense and, taking the void as the Way, you will see the Way as void.
In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existance, principle has existance, the Way has existance, spirit is nothingness.
Twelfth day of the fifth month, second year of Shoho (1645)
Teruro Magonojo
SHINMEN MUSASHI
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Throwing a dagger and getting it to reliably hit point-first is insanely difficult compared to anything a monk does with his junk -- but any simple peon can throw daggers all day long in d20!
I know! If you're not in the right state of mind your chance of a)hitting with the point first and b) hitting at all is crazy! (Well, less than simply 50%.) I always wonder if there is some sort of obscure technique that all the game writers know about but I don't. Definitely a topic for another thread, but if you haven't practiced extensively with throwing daggers at different distances from a target, you're useless (well, except for the 1 point or so of bludgeoning damage). I guess it just goes to show that combat is really hard to represent in the game without (what might be seen to some people as) unwieldy rules.
A whip: it's incredibly simple to use irl.
What if you roll a one?
It's a vague, universal non-argumrnt which can be deployed at any time for any reason.
Like when the soda machine won't give you your money back for not delivering a soda and the clerk inside won't either?
"Sorry, but it's against the rules."
"BALANCE IS IMPORTANT IS A GAME."
"But - wait, what?"
"By the spin ninja rules of combat, I win!"
-Katana stuff-Ad nauseum. This argument is endless. Katanas are the religion/politics of RPGs, and it is impossible to satisfy everyone.
You know the developers aren't going to change the rules right? The fight is over, at least in PF land. You'll have to continue the war elsewhere.
I agree with the first bit, but I thought the final word would come from UC.
In closing: You know, I never thought of Heathy as a katana advocate.
Throwing a dagger and getting it to reliably hit point-first is insanely difficult compared to anything a monk does with his junk -- but any simple peon can throw daggers all day long in d20!
ACK!!! I really don't want to read about what a monk does with his junk! It certainly doesn't belong in a rulebook.
EYEBLEACH
MINDBLEACH
GIVE ME A SHARP SPOON!!!
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To the left of you is outer space?In outer space???Japan, where is that? Is that west of here?<------------- That way.So are you saying that this explains the Democrats?
~Ducks~
Well, following the other arrow right would do the same . . .
Andy why would you need to duck? Some Democrats would take it as a compliment: they would have been out in outer space where the current space program is not. Or maybe that they restored the space program.
If a ray goes on to infinity, and the nothingness outside the universe does not loop, does the ray end in the nothingness outside the universe (only according to one theory, of course)?
Well since space is curved, given unlimited time. It would come back to the starting point, yet you will have long since moved.
Ultimate Combat.
Throwing a dagger and getting it to reliably hit point-first is insanely difficult compared to anything a monk does with his junk -- but any simple peon can throw daggers all day long in d20!ACK!!! I really don't want to read about what a monk does with his junk! It certainly doesn't belong in a rulebook.
EYEBLEACH
MINDBLEACH
GIVE ME A SHARP SPOON!!!
I'll stick to towel lifts.
LOL......
I got a 14 pound earthbreaker,
that dude in Conan with the big ass maul for driving tent stakes into granite is a viable melee weapon.....
but for heaven's sake let's all be rational about the katana.
...meh,....I'll just houserule it.
Don't get me started with the "swallow whole/cut out/muscular action closing the hole" schtick.
I'll tell you what.....anybody cuts their way out of a kaiju komodo dragon with a katana, or better yet a wakizashi, that muscular action ain't closing up NOTHING.
Because it won't be able to resist the firehose or horewhizzlike spraying of arterial blood!!!
But, please, in the name of all that's logical,
Don't let the katana be more bodacious than any other sword.....
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But, please, in the name of all that's logical,
Don't let the katana be more bodacious than any other sword.....
Only its wielder should be more bodacious - never the weapon...
Only its wielder should be more bodacious - never the weapon...But, please, in the name of all that's logical,
Don't let the katana be more bodacious than any other sword.....
It doesn't matter how many times you tell them. And believe me we have many times, on many threads.
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Katana stuffI feel compelled to speak up on a specific point, though, since I keep seeing come up in these threads.
There is NO reason for a katana to receive a special bonus to defense. There is nothing especially defensive in their design when compared to other swords.
As a light sword expressly designed for use with two hands, their ability to parry is exceptional if you know what you're doing.
-- It is one of the two primary reasons why tachi and uchigatanas progressively downgraded in size as their development progressed. (The other reason was speed-of-draw, since most samurai were bodyguards, and needed to deal with surprise assaults.) In Europe during the same period, the rapier was continually downgrade in length and weight for similar reasons, until it became the smallsword (to make a smallsword for Pathfinder, give the Fast and Defensive properties, which I invented for the katana, to a rapier-statted piercing weapon which is about 6" shorter than a rapier.)
No equivalent weapon existed in Europe, as virtually all swords there (even those with a blade the same size and similar shape as a katana's, such as the Mamaluke sword) were made with one-handed hilts and designed for use with a shield or an off-hand weapon.
Which isn't to say that, in real life, a katana-wielding samurai would acquit himself well versus a European knight with a longsword (chalk it up to matches history never saw). Contrary to notions of chivalry observed at the lists, battles were brutal affairs in which the prevailing rule was "anything goes" and "do whatever works".
-- Would a half-orc grapple a halfling and pile-drive him head-first into the ground if it was the fastest way to end thing? Or just crush his trachea with metal gauntlets? Hell, yes. 6' knight versus 5' samurai half-his-weight isn't a contest that ends well -- especially when, in real life, a slashing weapon is almost totally worthless versus metal armor. The Pathfinder game system might adjust things to make it fun for the players, but reality is a cruel beeyatch who mercilessly punishes even the slightly suboptimal.
(And then that longsword's sharp, PIERCING point comes into play: foe is on the ground helpless, place both hands on crossguard, ram down. Coup de grace two-hand Power Attack. Light's out, Mr. Samurai.
<take helmet off, wipe sweat off brow, look around for loot>
"Huh. Pretty sword. Good balance. Puny, though. I'll take it home and give it to my kid."
- - - - -
Other side of the coin: your average samurai would kick the ass of a rapier- or smallsword-wielding dandy of the European late-Renaissance era for a few simple reasons: those weapons were mainly used by civilians who did not wear armor, and they were one-handed weapons (which meant that not an appreciable amount of strength could be put into attacks). The style de jure was to lunge, delivering a painful, piercing wound.
Problem: samurai didn't care about pain or watching more than a fair share of their own blood spill -- they cared about results. And, while they had their own codes of honor, they certainly wouldn't have cared about a European's. So, in they go, taking the stab if they must, and then slaaaaash! -- Cut that dumb bastard from gizzard to groin, and down in a heap he goes with just one slice. The samurai might also die, depending upon where he got stuck -- but not right away -- which means he gets to slaughter a bunch more guys before he gets too woozy to continue.
(This is why I don't bother making rogues with Bleeding Critical stand toe-to-toe in melee -- even in a real-world where the sod you hit doesn't have magic to heal his wounds, he's still going to smear you if he has Power Attack and a two-handed weapon, and you don't. Especially if he's a CON 18 samurai and you're a CON 10 fop in frilly pants.)
Once again, not trying to start a big debate or anything, just dispelling an apparently common myth.
I'm not saying a kantana doesn't have good defensive capabilities, just that they aren't significantly better than many, many types which have no defense bonus in the game. As weapons in general go, swords are (almost) all rather good at defending, but you are definitely correct that it only applies when you know what you're doing with it.
The 'speed advantage' of the katana is greatly exaggerated as the weight difference vs. a longsword('Bastard Sword') is negligible. There are numerous katana which in fact weigh more than some longswords, despite being significantly smaller.
Case in point- this sword is as light as basically any katana I have ever seen, despite having a blade 10 in. longer than an average katana.
Also, since I think you mentioned it twice now... you are categorically wrong about there being no European equivalent to the katana. The Kriegsmesser is similar to the katana in blade length(though noticeably longer, 5-8"), curvature, handle length, and weight. This type of sword was in common use over 50 years before Portuguese contact with Japan, and thus can't be said to be derived from the katana.
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I'm not saying a kantana doesn't have good defensive capabilities, just that they aren't significantly better than many, many types which have no defense bonus in the game. As weapons in general go, swords are (almost) all rather good at defendingThere is no d20 equivalent for a two-handed weapon of scimitar properties (the game permits two-handed use, but real-world hilt designs realistically precluded it). Parrying, by definition, involves blocking or deflecting the opponent's attack -- while finesse is important, the role of strength is paramount. I.e., your real-life odds of successfully parrying two-handed sword attacks with one-handed swords are poor, and particularly poor if the one-handed sword is longer and the two-handed sword wielder smaller and more agile (he'll bat your weapon aside, "move inside your reach", and then you're screwed).
The 'speed advantage' of the katana is greatly exaggerated as the weight difference vs. a longsword('Bastard Sword') is negligible. There are numerous katana which in fact weigh more than some longswords, despite being significantly smaller.
It's not the (usual) light weight which solely permits a katana to have such a short "draw-to-strike" time, but the manner of its hilt construction and slight curvature combined with the way it is worn. Any straight sword worn in a "gravity-hung" scabbard and/or or curved sword worn in a "blade down" position has little chance of being brought to bear remotely as fast, given that samurai weapons and training (Iaido) (emphasize drawing and striking in a single, fluid motion. All aspects of a late-Edo period short-length/light-weight katana's construction facilitate this.
(Note: the post-WWII height increase of the average Japanese, as well as international interest in Japanese weapons, has resulted in the size of what is called a "katana" increasing once again, with 2.25 to 2.5 shaku becoming common. An average-statured Edo-period samurai would have regarded these as uchigatana; and, while considering them finely-crafted weapons, thought of them as inferior in impromptu battle versus his more-quickly-drawn two shaku sword.)
Also, since I think you mentioned it twice now... you are categorically wrong about there being no European equivalent to the katana. The Kriegsmesser is similar to the katana in blade length(though noticeably longer, 5-8"), curvature, handle length, and weight. This type of sword was in common use over 50 years before Portuguese contact with Japan, and thus can't be said to be derived from the katana.
Just because a Japanese sword is curved does not mean that it is a katana; and just because a non-Japanese sword has a curved blade does not mean it has the handling properties of a katana.
The Kriegsmesser's 44" blade-length is equivalent to 3.25 shaku, over 50% longer than the late-period 2 shaku 28" katana's blade.
Given the greater height of Europeans, the Kriegsmesser appears to be similar to an over-sized tachi (i.e., largest sword which could be worn in a waist-mounted scabbard). When height of the wielder is set aside, the Kriegsmesser's true analog is the nodachi.
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I'm going to respond with numbered sections, 'cause it's 3am and I don't feel like messing around with quotes. The numbers will correspond to the sections of Mike's last post.
1. I think you're over-stating the importance of strength here. Power is definitely an important factor, but there are many factors that influence your ability to parry a blow. Technique can make up for a difference in power quite a bit. Anyways, it's difficult to demonstrate the nuances of physical actions through text...
2. My bad on this one- I was referring to 'speed in hand', not 'draw speed'. I have no problem with saying a katana can be drawn significantly faster- the shorter blade alone pretty much makes sure of that.
3. I think you misread the info in my link. The blade on that sword is 33", not 44". 44" was the overall length of the sword. The dimensions of the sword compare well to a katana with a 27" or 28" blade and 11" tsuka, being only a few inches longer. (almost all of it in the blade) This is accounted for by a much more aggressive use of distal taper in the blade geometry, meaning the blade is longer, but the amount of steel is not significantly greater. Having handled both several Kriegsmesser and several katana, I can say they are indeed quite similar in handling. That they are similar in form and function is easy enough to tell simply from the picture.
To Gark, I am being civil, but I calls 'em like I sees 'em.