If they are 150 feet away? If they are 10 feet away? Does it matter if you are in combat or not?
If they are 150 feet away?
DC 15.
Assuming its not jungle/forest/woodlands.
If they are 10 feet away? Does it matter if you are in combat or not?
DC 1.
There may be additional penalties to the Perception roll based on lighting.
If they don't have cover or concealment, they don't have 'Stealth'.
Unless they've got Hide in Plain Sight and its dim lighting, of course.
Unless they've got Hide in Plain Sight and its dim lighting, of course.
Sure, different story :)
But failing any other circumstances...
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth.If you have no cover or concealment, there is not perception DC. Even far away by raw. The distance modifiers would only come up if you qualified for stealth in the first place.
How is this person 'stealthed' without cover or concealment?
You don't need stealth for a perception DC.
Per the chart in the descriptionNotice a visible creature DC 0
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth.If you have no cover or concealment, there is not perception DC. Even far away by raw. The distance modifiers would only come up if you qualified for stealth in the first place.
How is this person 'stealthed' without cover or concealment?
Not quite. The description of "perception" has a table with DCs, one of the entrys is "Notice a visible creature" with a DC of 0. So you modify this DC by +1/10 feet and other modifiers to get the DC.
Edit:
Advocate of the devil was faster :)
I'm placing a 'burden of action' on the stealther.
So to rephrase - If you have no cover or concealment, you cannot be 'stealthed'.
To elaborate, I would use the DC 0 'notice a visible creature' for situations like trying to identify a target from a distance (across a tavern, or across a market). The target isn't trying to stealth, the subject is trying to 'perceive it better':
Perception is also used to notice fine details in the environment. The DC to notice such details varies depending upon distance, the environment, and how noticeable the detail is. The following table gives a number of guidelines.And then the table you reference is given.
I agree that no cover equals no stealth but every 10 feet increases the perception dc by 1, unless you are just stating house rules.
Distance to the source, object, or creature +1/10 feet
PS:I am arguing RAW here*. There is no way(in a real game) I am making someone roll a perception check to see someone out in the open if they are in the same room.
*Nothing better to do right now.
Right, but what warrants the perception check? The description of that table says "to notice fine details". The actual text of that skill doesn't indicate that if you roll bad on a perception check you are blind to your obvious surroundings. The raw makes sense and I think people are artificially injecting stealth into a section of the rules that has nothing to do with stealth.
I agree that no cover equals no stealth but every 10 feet increases the perception dc by 1, unless you are just stating house rules.Distance to the source, object, or creature +1/10 feet
By the rules it is a DC of 0, and by the rules the modifiers apply to the perception DC, not to stealth. There is no stealth DC. There is only a perception DC. The distance adds to it.
You quoted the flavor/fluff, which is not the rules.
You quoted the flavor/fluff, which is not the rules.This is where I will disagree. There are more rules in the skill description than just the charts.
Specifically, my 'flavor' says " The DC to notice such details varies depending upon distance, the env, and how noticeable the detail is. The following table gives a number of guidelines."
So when attempting to notice details, that chart is used. The DC 0 is to identify a face, to have that 'wtf is he doing here?' situation. That table is not the rules for 'how to determine awareness'.
The table is to determine the DC to notice things. It tells you how to mathematically arrive at the correct number using certain conditions.
It is not RAI, but it is RAW.
The table is to determine the DC to notice things. It tells you how to mathematically arrive at the correct number using certain conditions.
It is not RAI, but it is RAW.Well no.. that's what I'm saying I think it is RAI as well. You have just made my argument.
To give a more clear statement. If you fail to 'notice' someone on the other side of the room, is it effectively the same as him being stealthed, even if he is not making a stealth check?
I was never arguing RAI. I was just arguing RAW out of boredom I guess.
PS:I am arguing RAW here*. There is no way(in a real game) I am making someone roll a perception check to see someone out in the open if they are in the same room.
*Nothing better to do right now.
Correct.
Its not a factor of player A's Stealth, it is alla factor of player B's Perception.
As no Stealth is actually in play its DC0 perception check, modified (in this case) by range. 15 and 1 respectively for the question posed.
DC0 to see a person.
You can (in real life) fail to notice that a person is in the room even if that person is not activly trying to hide from you. You can enter a room and fail to see the person who is doing something (like reading a book) without noticing, maybe because you are distracted (DC +5) or because the corner with the bookshelf and the creature (person) is far away (DC +1/10 feet), even though that person is not hiding behind the shelf or a chair or something.
Never had that surprise moment when you think you're alone somewhere and all of a sudden someone coughes or something and you notice that he was there all along? ;)
If you fail a DC 0 Perception check you are basically blind to the obvious.
Edit:
And I'd say that letting characters notice obvious things without rolling is just assuming they are taking 10 for those things, so they will mostly notice everything with a DC of 10 or lower.
DC0 to see a person.But the chart is labeled as guidelines 'to notice fine details'.
You are in a hallway, 50 ft down there is a person.
Failing the check doesn't mean you aren't aware of the person, it just means you didn't notice that he was the henchman of that assassin that's been tailing you for months.
I think you guys are using that chart wrong.
I dont.
The descriptor of the SKILL says 'Your senses allow you to notice fine details and alert you to danger. Perception covers all five senses, including sight, hearing, touch, taste, and smell'.
The CHART text says 'Notice a visible creature'
To notice a visible creature is a DC0, and at 50' would require a DC of 5, subject to any other modifiers.
Doesn't say to notice the individual identity of said person, just to spot them. To get more detail 'fine detail' even, would apply a higher DC.
DC0 to see a person.
Mmmh... You mean a peasant (lvl 1 commoner) with 9 in wis cannot see past 200 ft ? :D
Well there's a lot of people in the world who desperatly need glasses ;)
I'm blind as a mole without my glasses and I can assure you that on a flat road I can see there's someone 200 ft away... I can't tell you who it is or even it's gender but I can tell you it's human ;)
DC0 to see a person.But the chart is labeled as guidelines 'to notice fine details'.
You are in a hallway, 50 ft down there is a person.
Failing the check doesn't mean you aren't aware of the person, it just means you didn't notice that he was the henchman of that assassin that's been tailing you for months.
I think you guys are using that chart wrong.
The chart says "Notice a visible creature"
You can't become aware of them if you don't notice them.
Noticing him as a particular person is not even a perception check unless he is disguised.
As an example if I make my DC 0 check and he is a henchman I have dealt with before then I know who he is unless he is disguised.
Check: Your Disguise check result determines how good the disguise is, and it is opposed by others' Perception check results. If you don't draw any attention to yourself, others do not get to make Perception checks. If you come to the attention of people who are suspicious (such as a guard who is watching commoners walking through a city gate), it can be assumed that such observers are taking 10 on their Perception checks.
As to my earlier fluff comment. The rules don't come in until after the word "check". Anything before that is just filler.
Where does it say this? Without referencing that chart for 'fine details', can you give an example where you need a perception check to be aware of a guy with no cover or concealment.
The chart is not for 'fine details', that descriptor is for the skill.
The chart is labelled as DETAIL.http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/perception
So to notice a DETAIL, ie something as obvious as seeing a person, it is DC0. FINER details have higher DC's.
If you fail a DC 0 Perception check you are basically blind to the obvious.Where does it say this? Without referencing that chart for 'fine details', can you give an example where you need a perception check to be aware of a guy with no cover or concealment.
If that were the case, then you'd need to make checks every time you enter a room, if you have a fighter with no wis bonus, he will is effectively blind to 1/20th of the world (more beyond 20 ft away). In combat, he can't tell where many enemies are beyond 10 ft.
That's not what that chart is for, you are using it wrong.
RAW=Rules as Written(don't apply common sense)
We are right in this regard.
Do the rules say it is a DC 0 check to notice someone?
Yes.
Do the rules say that for every 10 feet away the DC increases?
Yes.
The DC 0 check is only there as a point of reference in case you are in an area that is crowed or has other conditions so you have a starting point, and it is not really intended for you to use in an open plan even if the person is 300(DC 30) feet away.
RAI: In a real game a person might be in a thick jungle(I am too lazy to look up actual modifiers). A jungle might have a +10 DC due to the vegetation. The person may be 100 feet away which is another 10, but they are not trying to hide so the DC is 20. The DC of 0 is a reference point in that case. 10+10+0=20
Where does it say this? Without referencing that chart for 'fine details', can you give an example where you need a perception check to be aware of a guy with no cover or concealment.The chart is not for 'fine details', that descriptor is for the skill.
The chart is labelled as DETAIL.http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/perception
So to notice a DETAIL, ie something as obvious as seeing a person, it is DC0. FINER details have higher DC's.
No they don't, read the check section. That 3rd party prd gives the text out of order, the second paragraph of the check entry end with "The following table gives a number of guidlines".
Only the first paragraph deals with awareness, the second one deals with noticing fine details.
They are "guidelines" because the game has number of conditional modifiers. You keep arguing RAI. RAI you are correct. RAW you are not.
It says detail because it is telling you what the details are. The detail is someone is standing out in the open.
The chart has most of the info so of course I can't do it without the chart anymore than you can adjudicate a situation unless you just make numbers up. The chart is a part of the rules.
Then again-->Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus.
That person in the middle of the room is observable stimuli. I guess I need a perception check now. The modifiers are only in that chart so there you go.
Only the first paragraph deals with awareness, the second one deals with noticing fine details.
OK lets look at the link you yourself have provided.
First we have the SKILL descriptor:
Perception
(Wis)Your senses allow you to notice fine details and alert you to danger. Perception covers all five senses, including sight, hearing, touch, taste, and smell.
That tells us what the skill DOES.
Under that we have a table headed DETAIL.
The rider for that says:
Perception is also used to notice fine details in the environment. The DC to notice such details varies depending upon distance, the environment, and how noticeable the detail is. The following table gives a number of guidelines.
In this case, the DC to Notice a visible creature (to notice them, that is the level of detail - "notice") is 0.
That check is just to notice them.
The DC 0 check is only there as a point of reference in case you are in an area that is crowed or has other conditions so you have a starting point, and it is not really intended for you to use in an open plan even if the person is 300(DC 30) feet away.
RAI: In a real game a person might be in a thick jungle(I am too lazy to look up actual modifiers). A jungle might have a +10 DC due to the vegetation. The person may be 100 feet away which is another 10, but they are not trying to hide so the DC is 20. The DC of 0 is a reference point in that case. 10+10+0=20
Ah I can agree with that... Yes I think common sense should prevail on RAW...
Else you will be terribly disappointed whan your level 1 warrior archer with 1 rank in Perception and a Wis of 12 (that's a total of +2 in perception since perception is not a skill class) try to shoot 110 feet away on an open road (first increment of the composite bow) and had to success a perception check DC 11 before trying to shoot... :p
Well he can fail to see someone 40 feet away on a 1 on the dice... :D
It says detail because it is telling you what the details are. The detail is someone is standing out in the open.
^^^THIS^^^
A person you fail to 'notice' via the notice rules doesn't get surprise on you. Those are two separate functions of perception. I am actually arguing RAW here.
So you are saying straight up that someone who makes a Stealth check you fail to beat with your Perception gets no surprise on you because you really have seen them, you just didn't notice them?
Erm no.
You provided the link, and nowhere in that link does it say anything of the sort.
To see/spot/notice/haveanyideatheyarethere and notice a person standing in the open is a DC0.
You guys seem to not understand that you can see something without noticing it...^^^That^^^
By raw: Failing to notice doesn't not equate to failing an opposed stealth/perception role. Those are two seperate uses of the skill. You know the person is there, but you failed to take note (that is to notice) of them.
So you are saying straight up that someone who makes a Stealth check you fail to beat with your Perception gets no surprise on you because you really have seen them, you just didn't notice them?how is this person in the open making a stealth check?
Do you have any support for this "take note"?
...Perception is also used to notice fine details in the environment. The DC to notice such details varies depending upon distance, the environment, and how noticeable the detail is. The following table gives a number of guidelines.
Below that is the detail chart with a person standing out in the open.
Below the detail chart is the chart with the modifiers.
.
TL:DR "It's slightly more complicated than you make it out to be"
...but you already read it. :)
In any event I would never use my RAW version in a game. I was just up for a little debate.
how is this person in the open making a stealth check?
Irrelevant to the case in point.
But I will humour the debate.
To notice a Person (in dim light) is DC2.
To notice a Person 'stealthing' (lets presume they have dim light) is the DC of their Stealth check, with a further 2 difficulty because of lighting conditions.
So in both cases you are rolling to 'notice' them.
You are not seeing them, just not noticing them, you are not noticing them.
I have to say that though the stealth/perception rules in general are pretty crazy, this particular instance seems mostly okay. DC 0 + distance to notice someone standing in the open. Sounds fine. The actual value of the distance modifier is wonky (DC sky high to notice the Colossal ship 500' away on the open sea?) but a properly (non-lineraly) scaling distance modifier would probably be a pain in the ass. Simplicity of use trumps here.
For the same reason, simplicity of use, I imagine most DMs don't call for checks to notice encounters that aren't stealthing. There are actually specific encounter spotting distance rules that trump the general rules here. I imagine this is more for noticing that particular person that you've been looking for standing in the crowd 100' away, or whatnot.