Synthesist Summoner...over the top?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

hey everyone,

I did some searchfu, but found the threads lacking what I was looking for.

I am running a kingmaker campaign where one of my players is running a summoner. when the new magic book came out the synthesist caught his eye, and it did sound cool to me too. but after his conversion it looks a bit too good to be true.

at 8th level, he out armors the fighter (at his best, using feats), and this is before spells like shield.

I've heard that the summoner may lack a little in the late game, and rock in the early levels. but where do things level out ?

compared to a druid's companion (which we have one in the group as well) the eidolon begins to outpace it, and other characters (even combat classes) pretty quickly. add in the spells from the summoner, and it just gets better.

I don't dislike the summoner, I just want to better understand how other people see it. aside from tailoring every encounter to be able to deal with this synthesist combo, I don't know what to do about it at this point, I'd rather not nerf it if I can avoid it.

also, a couple other questions popped up:

1)does the summoner's armor bonus apply when he wears his eidolon ? it seems like it does by the book as the eidolon can apply all of its armor to nat armor, but this catapults the armor up quite a bit. for example our 8th level summoner will have a 33-34 armor class, before shield or other spells. this beats our fighter, who maxes out at a 31 with all his feats and armor.

2)"The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points." now, my understanding is that temp hit points can not be "healed", so once the eidolon's hit points are out, he goes back home until he is re-summoned. I saw that some people want to use the eidolon healing spell to fix this. I am inclined to not allow the eidolon to be healed in this way in an attempt to bring in a little balance. views ?

thanks for reading, sorry if anything seemed a little ranty. also, thanks for any comments.

-Clammy


The Synth is like a regular summoner/eidolon combo, but with half the actions.


Could I trouble you to expand out your AC calculation so we can all see where your getting the 33-34 from

e.g. DEX +2 , Armor 6+, Dodge +1 etc etc

On a bit of a tangent as a GM you don't need to fear what appears OP on paper because it like everything else will have weaknesses.

My first thought when you said 33-34AC at level 8, was well what I can I throw at it that will make touch attacks , ghosts, alchemist bombs etc etc

Also the best lesson you can teach your player group if somoneone has found somthing far and above the group, you simply create a doppleganger NPC and through it at them.

A GM in Kingmaker has done this twice first against an alchemist I had made , Kobolds throwing Alch Bombs...*shudders*
The Second was an anti-paladin speced out like our paladin who smite ability was doing insane dmg with bard rerolls, and wow was it a bad day to be good aligned. Neutral FTW !

but yeah if you can split out that AC that would be great
Cheers


KaeYoss wrote:
The Synth is like a regular summoner/eidolon combo, but with half the actions.

Not quite.

And even if it were, that'd still be plenty powerful.

LordClammy wrote:
1)does the summoner's armor bonus apply when he wears his eidolon?

No. Eidolons can't wear regular armor. Any armor they wear is strictly flavor and part of their natural AC. The summoner's armor bonus does not apply.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I don't have the character in front of me right now. I will get the breakdown and post it for you in the morning.

I don't really fear the synthesist. I just like to run the campaign as intended without having to tailor all the encounters to be able to fight 1 party member more effectively.

Shadow Lodge

Ellington wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:
The Synth is like a regular summoner/eidolon combo, but with half the actions.

Not quite.

And even if it were, that'd still be plenty powerful.

LordClammy wrote:
1)does the summoner's armor bonus apply when he wears his eidolon?
No. Eidolons can't wear regular armor. Any armor they wear is strictly flavor and part of their natural AC. The summoner's armor bonus does not apply.

Where's it say an eidolon can't wear armor?

Isn't that why it gains feats? And if the summoner is proficient, doesn't that make the fused eidolon proficient as well?


legomojo wrote:
Ellington wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:
The Synth is like a regular summoner/eidolon combo, but with half the actions.

Not quite.

And even if it were, that'd still be plenty powerful.

LordClammy wrote:
1)does the summoner's armor bonus apply when he wears his eidolon?
No. Eidolons can't wear regular armor. Any armor they wear is strictly flavor and part of their natural AC. The summoner's armor bonus does not apply.

Where's it say an eidolon can't wear armor?

Isn't that why it gains feats? And if the summoner is proficient, doesn't that make the fused eidolon proficient as well?

From the Advanced Player's Guide.

Armor Bonus: The number noted here is the eidolon’s base total armor bonus. This bonus may be split between an armor bonus and a natural armor bonus, as decided by the summoner. This number is modified by the eidolon’s base form and some options available through its evolution pool. An eidolon cannot wear armor of any kind, as the armor interferes with the summoner’s connection to the eidolon.

I see no reason this shouldn't apply with the synthesist.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

that's good to know, I can't believe I overlooked that. that would drop the summoner's fused ac by 6 points I believe. I will still post the breakdown in the morning.

Shadow Lodge

Yeah, except for this line in the Fused Eidolon ability: While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear.

This means he can still use his armor, and all his other gear. The Eidolon is not wearing it the summoner is. The no armor on the eidolon line is to prevent a normal eidolon from having barding put on it.


The Fused Eidolon ability also says "The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores."

If he were meant to stack armour bonuses, it would state that they stack. That sentence seems pretty clear that BAB, armour, natural armour and ability score modifiers of the fusion are those of the fusion, rather than both.

I believe the gear is intended for things like weapons, or use-based items. Even armour special abilities (fortification, etc) would probably be all right with me. Just not the bonus itself.


Volaran wrote:

The Fused Eidolon ability also says "The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores."

If he were meant to stack armour bonuses, it would state that they stack. That sentence seems pretty clear that BAB, armour, natural armour and ability score modifiers of the fusion are those of the fusion, rather than both.

I believe the gear is intended for things like weapons, or use-based items. Even armour special abilities (fortification, etc) would probably be all right with me. Just not the bonus itself.

Even if it doesnt stack, you've still got Mage Armor

That said, to the OP: The synthesist is at a significant disadvantage over the normal summoner for, if nothing else (and poorly worded abilities aside)

1. He has to put his life on the line (whereas a normal summoner can run around invisible all the time)

2. Action economy

3. The Barbarian rage-death effect (if his eidolon's Con is significantly higher than his own)


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Eric Clingenpeel wrote:

Yeah, except for this line in the Fused Eidolon ability: While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear.

This means he can still use his armor, and all his other gear. The Eidolon is not wearing it the summoner is. The no armor on the eidolon line is to prevent a normal eidolon from having barding put on it.

The Eidolon and the summoner are the same creature. If the summoner is wearing something, so is the Eidolon, as they are one and the same.

Whether you agree that this is RAW or not, it's clear that for balance reasons it is intended that the Synthesist cannot wear armor while fused, because the same reasons Eidolons can't wear it still apply.


He might not be able to wear armor but he can definitely cast mage armor and he can use a shield(shields are not armor. do not use the armor slot, do not use armor proficiency, do not provide an armor bonus). Mithril light shield for the win. don't even need to spend a feat getting proficiency.

By lvl 8 that means that while fused the summoner has

around 12 natural armor(2 base, 2 large, 6 lvls, 2 ina evolution)
-1 size
+2 dex
+3 barkskin
+4 mage armor
=31 ac self buffed. If he wants more ac he can get a ring of deflection and also cast shield on himself early in combat.

At lvl 9 his barkskin goes up to +4, at lvl 10 he can get improved natural armor evolution again. when he can afford it, he can pick up a mithril light shield and enchant it. Then he won't need to cast shield anymore.

That is hard to compete against.


Varthanna wrote:


3. The Barbarian rage-death effect (if his eidolon's Con is significantly higher than his own)

Yet, eidolon hp are the first ones to go. So in most scenarios he should be at full hp when his eidolon pops. If your summoner is using life link, well do not be foolish enough to put your self in range of an auto kill. Also get die hard.

This is not a big problem.


The synthesist is weaker than the standard summoner ... the supposed weakness of the shared item slots and being able to target the summoner was always severely oversold.

All the synthesist does is take away those poor excuses ...


Whenever I see a "Summoner is overpowered!" thread, it usually means that someone has misread the rules, which is sadly very easy. With the Synthesist.... I honestly think they might be on to something. Yes, you're giving up an action each round, but what you are left with is so, so much stronger and more resilient than the two weaker selves... The Skilled evolution alone can break some games (at least organized ones).


LordClammy wrote:


1)does the summoner's armor bonus apply when he wears his eidolon ? it seems like it does by the book as the eidolon can apply all of its armor to nat armor, but this catapults the armor up quite a bit. for example our 8th level summoner will have a 33-34 armor class, before shield or other spells. this beats our fighter, who maxes out at a 31 with all his feats and armor.

As have been mentioned, it's unclear from the description, but it's probably the intent that you can't apply your armour while wearing the eidolon (which also makes sense, since any attack would hit the eidolon, not you).

LordClammy wrote:


2)"The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points." now, my understanding is that temp hit points can not be "healed", so once the eidolon's hit points are out, he goes back home until he is re-summoned. I saw that some people want to use the eidolon healing spell to fix this. I am inclined to not allow the eidolon to be healed in this way in an attempt to bring in a little balance. views ?

It's not so much that people want to be able to heal the eidolon, and more the fact that, as written, the eidolon can never be healed in any way, which means that it will be at full health the first time you summon it, and after that it can never be at more than half health (an eidolon that is unsummoned due to health loss returns with half max health the next time it is summoned). This surely can't be the intent.

If you can't heal the temp hit points, you can kill the eidolon yourself and resummon it (with full or half hit points depending on interpretation) between every fight. If you allow it to be healed, it will at least use up party resources doing so. So that might actually be the least intrusive option.


thepuregamer wrote:

He might not be able to wear armor but he can definitely cast mage armor and he can use a shield(shields are not armor. do not use the armor slot, do not use armor proficiency, do not provide an armor bonus). Mithril light shield for the win. don't even need to spend a feat getting proficiency.

By lvl 8 that means that while fused the summoner has

around 12 natural armor(2 base, 2 large, 6 lvls, 2 ina evolution)
-1 size
+2 dex
+3 barkskin
+4 mage armor
=31 ac self buffed. If he wants more ac he can get a ring of deflection and also cast shield on himself early in combat.

At lvl 9 his barkskin goes up to +4, at lvl 10 he can get improved natural armor evolution again. when he can afford it, he can pick up a mithril light shield and enchant it. Then he won't need to cast shield anymore.

That is hard to compete against.

Never forget the "shielding merge" (or was ist "merged shield") which replaces shielding ally: as long as the eidolon and the synthesist is merged she gets a +2 AC shield bonus (therefore casting shield or using a shield is useless) ...and in addition a +2 circumstance resistance bonus. I guess it was level 14 when the boni increased to +4.

The weakness of a "tanking" synthersist are fights in public (yeah the summon eidolon-spell decreases the time of beeing exposed without the outstanding AC) but is still a 1-round-cast. And the first caster hitting with a sleep-spell or casting a banish take the poor guy out.

An other usefull spell is the protection or circle of protection-spell in a suprise-attack: The synthesist have to use his summon eidolon spell to become ready in time and every non-attacking enemy (smart enemies just ignore the poor guy) can't be hit till the synthesist got any SR.

I think a "fair" 1on1 against a synthesist is not a good idea ;)

Hope my GM will never read this...

EDIT:

On the healing-problem:
James Jacobs said (somewhere in his "ask me everything") that we have to stop of thinking of two different beeings and see the synthesist as becoming the eidolon. The syn should be healed up to his HP + temp HP and the problem with the fast healing is also cleared: one beeing - one fast healing.


Synthesist requires a lot of GM ruling before it can be played. Flavor-wise it is worth it.

At first it does look like a power-house. High AC, okish saves. And it could be built as a single horrible fighting machine. But its greatest strength is also its greatest weakness:


  • Touch attacks? Flee!
  • A normal summoners eidolon is stronger because it has its own feats, a synthesist has to take these feats himself to break even, which means losing out on more summoner orientated feats like augumented summoning (or vice versa).
  • There can be only one. Compared to a leopard summoning/wildshaping druid Synthesist loses to pure pouncing damage output.
  • Long prep-time. 1 minute ritual or 1 round spell which uses up a very limited spell slot. Summoners don't get lots of these.
  • Banishment makes all those nice buffs go away. Fighters don't suffer from banishment angst.

I think its fair that with all these (and some I probably havn't mentioned) that a synthesist is not horribly broken.

Also see here


Slaunyeh wrote:

As have been mentioned, it's unclear from the description, but it's probably the intent that you can't apply your armour while wearing the eidolon (which also makes sense, since any attack would hit the eidolon, not you).

However the two cannot be targeted separately. A save or die spell will still hit the summoner..

Besides, truthfully, at most, the summoner would be able to get a 14 ac from heavy plate mail armor, the cost of two feats and the loss of magic and with +5 plate mail.

At light.. at most he would get +9 from +5 chain shirt. Or he could just cast mage armor.. +4 from that.. Braces of magic armor for +5 instead..


Ævux wrote:


However the two cannot be targeted separately. A save or die spell will still hit the summoner..

If it wasn't clear, I was talking flavour. Not mechanics.


Mechanics support flavor however. Flavor is supported by mechanics. The two are not mutually exclusive.

If I stabbed you with a knife, Do I hit your insides?


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Ævux wrote:

Mechanics support flavor however. Flavor is supported by mechanics. The two are not mutually exclusive.

If I stabbed you with a knife, Do I hit your insides?

If my internal organs are armour plated, does your knife fail to penetrate my skin?


LordClammy wrote:

hey everyone,

1)does the summoner's armor bonus apply when he wears his eidolon ? it seems like it does by the book as the eidolon can apply all of its armor to nat armor, but this catapults the armor up quite a bit. for example our 8th level summoner will have a 33-34 armor class, before shield or other spells. this beats our fighter, who maxes out at a 31 with all his feats and armor.

Eidolons are explicitly disallowed from wearing armor. Whether or not you think that RAW this means that Synthesists can't wear armor, as a GM I would certainly rule that they cannot, or at least that armor does not work while fused. They can, of course, use Mage Armor just like ordinary Eidolons could, as well as Bracers of Armor.

Synthesists are indeed very high-AC, even without armor. At level 8, they should be able to afford at least a +1 ring and amulet and a Dusty Rose Ioun Stone, given that they're not going to be buying a shield or armor.

This puts their AC up to 10 + 13 NAT + 1 DEX + 1 DEF + 1 INS + 4 ARMOR + 2 SHIELD + 1 DODGE - 1 SIZE = 33 AC/31 FF/13 TCH.

That's great AC, especially considering how little wealth had to be put into it (9000gp). Of course, that Ioun Stone probably won't be commonplace, so without a Wizard specifically crafting it it's unlikely he'd have it.

To let his AC get much higher than this at that level, by allowing the wearing of armor, would be in my opinion a mistake, and I think the rules give ample opportunity to ban armor-wearing synthesists. CR 11 creatures should not have to roll 20s to hit a level 8 character. Letting him wear armor also discourages his spellcasting, making him into a one-dimensional "physical brawler" character.


Slaunyeh wrote:
Ævux wrote:

Mechanics support flavor however. Flavor is supported by mechanics. The two are not mutually exclusive.

If I stabbed you with a knife, Do I hit your insides?

If my internal organs are armour plated, does your knife fail to penetrate my skin?

Ah but how much damage does penetrating the skin actually do to you vs hitting your insides?

If you have no insides, or they are armored, can i score a critical hit on you?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Hey guys,

Thanks for all the great replies.

Here is the sum/syn's AC breakdown:
+2 shield bonus (shield ally)
+3 dex
+10 Nat armor (8 base, 2 from evo)
If his armor was allowed that would be another +6 for 31 AC before the shield or other spells. Without the armor and with the image armor spell he is down to a 29.

A bit more managable than the 33/34 I thought it was.


Remember shield and shield ally do not stack. So at most he gets a +2 with it.

The complaint really is over 2 points of ac.

At level 8, the summoners power armor is now easily subjected to dismissal. I don't remember when I could take half a fighters HP, almost all his armor, a good portion of his stats, his fighting ability and such and destroy it all with a single cast of a spell.

Then we have the fact that they are opened to weakness. They cannot be targeted with any good spells that cannot target outsiders/normal race. They can be targeted with all the bad spells too.

Control person for example, or control summoned creature. (since it is still summoned.)

But lets see something here..

8th level Druid animal Companion Wolf.

+4 armor +3 dex -1 size +4 armor = 20 AC.
+6 Breast plate barding +2 enhancement +4 imp natural armor feats - 32 ac.

That is before spells.

throw on anthropomorphic animal onto the wolf giving it a tower shield and a ring slot.

+6 from tower shield +2 from ring of protection..

That's 40 Ac right there.

I am curious to know what the fighters AC is and its break down. I just made a monk with a 30 AC at level 8 with wealth by level, before he even spends a Ki Point and could still take 2nd level potions to give him a little more boost.

Oh dang, I forgot to add in Iron Limb Defense. The monk could sit there with 32 ac, and occasionally buff it to 34-38 ac.

The Exchange

The Synthesist looks a little like cat-nip to min-maxers... You can happily dump all three physical Ability Scores, make your character venerable as well, and not suffer any penalties for doing so... well, until someone sends your power armour away, but then you're scewed anyway, so why do you care? ;)

So... a '7' in each of the three physicals is an extra 12pts for point buy. Venerable tanks all three physicals to '1' each, but gives a +3 on each of your mentals. So, with a mere 15pt buy you can take Charisma 18, bumped to 20 by a racial modifier, then to 23 by age... and you still have 10pts to spend on Int and Wis - so, let's say, 14 each, bumped to 17 each by age.

So, your stats are:

Str 1
Dex 1
Con 1
Int 17
Wis 17
Cha 23

But you use your eidolon's physical stats, 24/7, for a 1st level, 15py buy character of:

Str 16
Dex 12
Con 13
Int 17
Wis 17
Cha 23

... before spending evolutions. You define your eidolon's appearance as 'like me, but younger and hotter' and you're good to go...

OP?.. nah...

Of course, every random wandering monster is carrying scrolls of banishment now, but that's a difference kettle of fish altogether... :)


ProfPotts wrote:

The Synthesist looks a little like cat-nip to min-maxers... You can happily dump all three physical Ability Scores, make your character venerable as well, and not suffer any penalties for doing so... well, until someone sends your power armour away, but then you're scewed anyway, so why do you care? ;)

So... a '7' in each of the three physicals is an extra 12pts for point buy. Venerable tanks all three physicals to '1' each, but gives a +3 on each of your mentals. So, with a mere 15pt buy you can take Charisma 18, bumped to 20 by a racial modifier, then to 23 by age... and you still have 10pts to spend on Int and Wis - so, let's say, 14 each, bumped to 17 each by age.

So, your stats are:

Str 1
Dex 1
Con 1
Int 17
Wis 17
Cha 23

But you use your eidolon's physical stats, 24/7, for a 1st level, 15py buy character of:

Str 16
Dex 12
Con 13
Int 17
Wis 17
Cha 23

... before spending evolutions. You define your eidolon's appearance as 'like me, but younger and hotter' and you're good to go...

OP?.. nah...

Of course, every random wandering monster is carrying scrolls of banishment now, but that's a difference kettle of fish altogether... :)

Rofl! That's someone just begging to be killed by their GM. ...but I'll keep this in the back of my mind. I can think of a campaign where a build like this may come in handy. (A one-shot adventure where my GM is planning on killing us, regardless of what we pick!)


Actually its pretty easy to kill that guy.

Banishment is only but one way to remove the eidolon.

Personally I prefer Controlled Summoned Creature or a variety of poisons. The summoner has 8 hours of potential weakness as well every night. Just get a giant tick or something to suck that one point of con.. Poof. Dead summoner.


dismissal/banishment are will saves. Why is a fused summoner scared of a will save? He and his eidolon cannot be targeted seperately. So the summoner is making the will save for his eidolon. Considering summoners have a strong will save, can dump their physical stats and thus have maxed out mental stats, among other amounts of optimization... the summoner should easily be able to achieve a 95% chance of succeeding against dismissal and banishment.

This is an upgrade for quadruped eidolons. Previously, all those guys who liked pouncing until lvl 10 later realized they had a creature with a pitifully low will save. The only thing that is going to be popping this power armor is an antimagic field.


ProfPotts wrote:

So, your stats are:

Str 1
Dex 1
Con 1
Int 17
Wis 17
Cha 23

Synthesist takes a single point of con damage. Now he can't sleep to rest it off and heal or his eidolon will vanish and he'll die. :O


Umbral Reaver wrote:
ProfPotts wrote:

So, your stats are:

Str 1
Dex 1
Con 1
Int 17
Wis 17
Cha 23

Synthesist takes a single point of con damage. Now he can't sleep to rest it off and heal or his eidolon will vanish and he'll die. :O

Can a synthesist take the resilient eidolon feat?


thepuregamer wrote:
dismissal/banishment are will saves. Why is a fused summoner scared of a will save? He and his eidolon cannot be targeted seperately. So the summoner is making the will save for his eidolon. Considering summoners have a strong will save, can dump their physical stats and thus have maxed out mental stats, among other amounts of optimization... the summoner should easily be able to achieve a 95% chance of succeeding against dismissal and banishment.

And that's why a synthesist is a decent archetype, even if he doesn't have as much actions per round as a "vanilla"

summoner.


thepuregamer wrote:

dismissal/banishment are will saves. Why is a fused summoner scared of a will save? He and his eidolon cannot be targeted seperately. So the summoner is making the will save for his eidolon. Considering summoners have a strong will save, can dump their physical stats and thus have maxed out mental stats, among other amounts of optimization... the summoner should easily be able to achieve a 95% chance of succeeding against dismissal and banishment.

This is an upgrade for quadruped eidolons. Previously, all those guys who liked pouncing until lvl 10 later realized they had a creature with a pitifully low will save. The only thing that is going to be popping this power armor is an antimagic field.

Like I said before Dismissal/Banshiment are but only 2 ways of dealing with it. And regardless of how much you have, there is always the capability of rolling a 1.

Alignment bashing spells. There is a ton of them. Could be avoided though if you are true neutral (A good DM though would make you play to that though)

Antimagic field is not the only way to deal with it.

Poisons. Eidolon does not gain poison immunity. And you don't get good fort saves. All you need to do is cause the guy to fall asleep or become unconscious.

Agonize, it is a fort save.

Anything that attacks humanoids is still fair game for you.

You cannot benefit from enlarge/Reduce person as you do not count as one unless it is disadvantageous for you.

thepuregamer wrote:


Can a synthesist take the resilient eidolon feat?

Debatable if he can or not.

Even so, can you really sleep with 4-5 rounds worth of sleep?


thepuregamer wrote:


Can a synthesist take the resilient eidolon feat?

RAW: nope!

But James Jacobs said "Some GMs might allow it..."

Your eidolon class feature was removed because of the merged eidolon class feature. No "extra evolution", no "xyz eidolon", no nothing...
Make a nice pizza, buy some energy drinks and ask your GM with your silver tounge while he's happy ;)


Ævux wrote:


Like I said before Dismissal/Banshiment are but only 2 ways of dealing with it. And regardless of how much you have, there is always the capability of rolling a 1.

If your summoner is that afraid of a 5% chance of a successful dismissal, then he can pick up improved iron will or 1 of several other abilities that allow you to reroll. If an answer targets the summoners will save he is safer than most other melee guys(I may be incorrectly assuming that this synthesist summoner is going into melee alot).

Quote:


Poisons. Eidolon does not gain poison immunity. And you don't get good fort saves. All you need to do is cause the guy to fall asleep or become unconscious.

Agonize, it is a fort save.

but synthesist fort saves are not so bad either. He gets his eidolons physical scores. So he is not too weak to fort saves or poisons. Also since half elves have such a huge advantage as summoners, sleep is not going to really be a problem for a synthesist.

Quote:


Anything that attacks humanoids is still fair game for you.

Because of the stat min max potential of the synthesist, he can have very good defenses. He has an impossibly good will save. His weak fortitude save is compensated for by eidolons con score. He can generally have higher ac than most other classes.

Quote:


You cannot benefit from enlarge/Reduce person as you do not count as one unless it is disadvantageous for you.

I wonder how this works in regards to the summoner casting enlarge person(a summoner's share spells ability allows him to cast spells from his summoner list on his eidolon regardless of the creature type restrictions in the spell).

Though losing enlarge person is a small loss for the summoner. Huge is already too big very often.


Lonwyr wrote:
thepuregamer wrote:


Can a synthesist take the resilient eidolon feat?

RAW: nope!

But James Jacobs said "Some GMs might allow it..."

Your eidolon class feature was removed because of the merged eidolon class feature. No "extra evolution", no "xyz eidolon", no nothing...
Make a nice pizza, buy some energy drinks and ask your GM with your silver tounge while he's happy ;)

I always disliked how this worked. They slightly modify an ability and rename it and then all the source material for the original ability melts away.

what is even dumber is that they made these summoner feats in the same book as they made the summoner archetypes. It is ridiculous.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I agree with those saying that a synth CAN wear armor. The eidolon is not wearing it, the summoner is. He's not two creatures, but one augmented being. The rules even specifically state he can use his gear.

Still, it could be more clear, and I wouldn't mind an official statement saying the above.

Also, I believe that the eidolon, no longer being a separate creature, cannot be healed, but is automatically summoned with full HP every time (since as an effect it can't be hurt, unlike a creature).


thepuregamer wrote:


Quote:


Poisons. Eidolon does not gain poison immunity. And you don't get good fort saves. All you need to do is cause the guy to fall asleep or become unconscious.

Agonize, it is a fort save.

but synthesist fort saves are not so bad either. He gets his eidolons physical scores. So he is not too weak to fort saves or poisons. Also since half elves have such a huge advantage as summoners, sleep is not going to really be a problem for a synthesist.

Eidolon have 13 con.

At maximum you can give the eidolon +9 con via evolutions and attributing the stat increases to con.

However you fail to realize the severity of poisons by just simply brushing them off as laddida.

Each time I hit you with the same poison its DC increases by +2.

Even as a half-elf or elf, you still have to sleep. While you are immune to magically induced sleep.. you are not immune to poison induced sleep.

If dealing with something like say a ranger, there is a pretty good chance I will have one of your three subtypes.

I'm quite certain there is more out there that you open up in weaknesses, but my head hurts like hell and the PSRD20 isn't being nice to me either..


Ævux wrote:


Eidolon have 13 con.

At maximum you can give the eidolon +9 con via evolutions and attributing the stat increases to con.

Well actually you can do better than that. Huge gets you a +8 bonus to con putting you at 21. If you are really worried, you can put a point from eidolon lvl increases into it and get to 22. Since you are a melee combat oriented fighter, down the line you are likely to get gear that gives you a +6 enhancement bonus to con. that is 28. So I would say a +9 con mod to fortitude saves is a pretty good start for shoring up your weak con save progression. After a +1 trait bonus, a 6 base bonus, 5 resistance, +4 circumstance bonus from greater shielded meld, and a +2 morale bonus from heroism and we have a +27 bonus. If we are really worried about this closer to the end of the game we can also take great fortitude and a few other methods that increase our saving throws. Also if poisons are so dangerous, 6 evolution points thrown at undead appearance will give you immunity to poison and a bunch of other conditions.

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However you fail to realize the severity of poisons by just simply brushing them off as laddida.

Each time I hit you with the same poison its DC increases by +2.

I have not underestimated poisons. I know that each application of the same poison increases the dc by 2. This is not a big deal considering the highest dc poison I can find in the prd that damages con is only a dc 22 save and each use costs 6500 gp. I make the save once and the next time you hit me with the poison it is once again just a dc 22 save. Unless you apply this poison more than 4 times, a late game optimized synthesist will make the save 95% of the time.

Quote:


Even as a half-elf or elf, you still have to sleep. While you are immune to magically induced sleep.. you are not immune to poison induced sleep.

in the prd I see 3 poisons that make a person unconscious. The highest dc one is a dc 15. A well made synthesist can bring the danger of poisons down to an acceptable lvl.

Quote:


If dealing with something like say a ranger, there is a pretty good chance I will have one of your three subtypes.

well that is not necessarily true. Rangers have to pick a specific group of humanoids or outsiders when they choose them as their favored enemy. If I am not a human, then the chances that a ranger chooses me is relatively low. Also, I am unsure what grouping of outsider a eidolon fits into. The eidolon is not listed as having a subtype and thus it would be difficult to know if a ranger got his favored enemy bonus against us.

I agree that there are weaknesses to exploit. But I think the when the synthesist is using the fused eidolon power armor, it covers up many of them.

He has great armor class, all around good stats, ability to get fort save pretty high, likely very high will save, access to spell resistance, and high combat ability.

You are weak against antimagic field, a possibly low touch ac, a low reflex save, weak against ambushes at night or at other times when you are not already fused with your eidolon.

Aggressive use of poison could hurt you but most poison users are 3/4 bab classes and thus their chance of hitting you is lower than most others. I have trouble seeing a poison user get more than 3 poisoned hits on you in a round and a 4 higher poison save is still somewhat low.


When did this suddenly become PvP?

Monsters have poison attacks and there can be many of them and all their poison stacks for DC purposes. Swarms are especially insidious (as everyone knows).

Undead and huge eidolons are just not practical (unless you are evil which is another thing entirely). Just going to town means you will have to do without the eidolon "power armor" or have many horrible social consequences. To counteract this you would have to have halfway decent stats on the summoner without the eidolon just to carry your gear and not fall over if a fly sneezes at you.

I think a synthesist may survive better than a normal summoner but the normal summoner definitely has more power just from conservation of actions (and the ability to take eidolon feats). A druid of same level has more damage output than a synthesist especially at high levels (wildshape + animal companion + animal summons all pouncing). A fighter can match if not exceed the eidolons AC.

Finally if the GM feels "it is too powerful" he can house rule it to be what he thinks is acceptable. (like the fused synthesist wearing armor or not)


Actually if you are half-elf or half-orc if the ranger selects human, he has you as a favored enemy. There is no favored enemy "half-elf", and if there is, its petty dumb to take it.

And you just factored in the ability point gain of the eidolon twice. When I said 9, that was after taking the con evolution 3 times and then putting every ASI into con for the eidolon

Also, your the ASI evolution costs twice as much now.. So all together you spend 18 points to increase your con score with the huge/ASI evolutions.

This leaves you with only 8 points to spend. +5 if you are a 20th level half-elf summoner. +4 if you are allowed to take extra evolutions.

If you take undead appearance, you cannot be healed with positive energy and now count as undead for the effects.

So as a half-elf synthisist summoner you count as undead, outsider, human, and elf for effects related to creature type. So now you can be hit with things like command undead, sunlight, channel energy and an empowered version of smite evil. (if evil)

Having multiple creature types is a weakness, not a bonus.


Avianfoo wrote:

When did this suddenly become PvP?

Monsters have poison attacks and there can be many of them and all their poison stacks for DC purposes. Swarms are especially insidious (as everyone knows).

Undead and huge eidolons are just not practical (unless you are evil which is another thing entirely). Just going to town means you will have to do without the eidolon "power armor" or have many horrible social consequences. To counteract this you would have to have halfway decent stats on the summoner without the eidolon just to carry your gear and not fall over if a fly sneezes at you.

One does not necessarily go around as undead or huge all the time. If A quickened evolution surge(using a lesser rod of quicken) allows you to become large when the space is big enough, or pick up the undead appearance evolution when it is beneficial.

avianfoo wrote:

A fighter can match if not exceed the eidolons AC.

this is not true especially late in the game.Just about everything a fighter can pick up to increase his ac is open to eidolons/summoners as well(except for full plate armor. Though that can be partially made up for with mage armor or bracers of armor)

Ævux wrote:


Actually if you are half-elf or half-orc if the ranger selects human, he has you as a favored enemy. There is no favored enemy "half-elf", and if there is, its petty dumb to take it.

ah I forgot about that about the half elf counts as both elf and human thing. But then again, this issue applies to many players.

Ævux wrote:


And you just factored in the ability point gain of the eidolon twice. When I said 9, that was after taking the con evolution 3 times and then putting every ASI into con for the eidolon

Also, your the ASI evolution costs twice as much now.. So all together you spend 18 points to increase your con score with the huge/ASI evolutions.

This leaves you with only 8 points to spend. +5 if you are a 20th level half-elf summoner. +4 if you are allowed to take extra evolutions.

I think you are misunderstanding things. If I take the huge evolution for 10 points, I get a +8 bonus to con. 13+8=21, add 1 of the 3 points the eidolon gets from lvling to con and you are at 22. If your melee combat synthesist has a belt that gives +6 enhancement bonus to con you are now at the 28 I was talking about. and you only spent 10 points on an evolution that is a bigger boost to offensive power than defense.

Ævux wrote:


If you take undead appearance, you cannot be healed with positive energy and now count as undead for the effects.

So as a half-elf synthisist summoner you count as undead, outsider, human, and elf for effects related to creature type. So now you can be hit with things like command undead, sunlight, channel energy and an empowered version of smite evil. (if evil)

Having multiple creature types is a weakness, not a bonus.

I would not take undead appearance. I would pick up undead appearance through a quickened evolution surge when I needed the bonus against those certain attack types. I am going to make a guess and say that I am not likely to be fighting either poisonous monsters or poison using assassins at the same time as fighting paladins or anti undead clerics. So the undead type is not really a weakness for the situations the synthesist is likely to use it in.

Now there are multiple ways a synthesist can be set up in terms of size.

So if you can only operate in your zone as a medium creature( this is a sad event.) Then you pick up the number of ability score increases you want instead of large or huge size evolutions. Then later on, a quickened evolution surge will give you your large size evolution when you can use it. This is the only really economical way to be using both ability score increase evolution and large at the same time. Since when you pick out your ability score increase evolutions, you are not large and thus they only cost 2 each. evolution surge just hands you large on top of that.

I would probably work it this way in situations where you can only fit as a large creature as well.

And when you can operate in open areas, being huge is very powerful. 16 str, 8 con, 5 na(though ac only increases by 1 due to losses of dex and size penalty).
Though as a side note, rods of quicken lesser probably only become a viable options after lvl 12 or 13 or so due to their cost.

Of importance is also that I would not use con as a dump stat for a synthesist. I would leave it at 10 or 12 and use dex and str as dump stats. With 15 point buy, I would likely aim for str 7, dex 7, con 12, int 11, wis 16, cha 16. You won't be an 1 shot kill those unhappy moments when your power armor isn't on. Which should give you enough time to put it on before dying.

The Exchange

So the min-maxed Synthesist is vulnerable to poisons, getting murdered in his sleep, and the DM deciding to single him out for a specialised beating? So... just like every other character then... ;)

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Of importance is also that I would not use con as a dump stat for a synthesist...

But less Con gets you more Hit Points, thanks to a min-maxer's exploitation of the rules...

The key text is under Constitution on page 16 of the Core book...

'... You apply your Constitution modifier to: Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1 - that is, a character always gains at least 1 hit point each time he advances in level)...'

... and under Ability Score Bonuses on page 554 of the Core book...

'... For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability...'

'... Constitution:... multiply your total Hit Dice by this bonus and add that amount to your current and total hit points...'

All of which means:

Synthesist has a Con of 1, with a -5 Penalty.

When fused with his eidolon he has a Con of 13 - and increase of 12, or a +6 bonus over what he had to start with.

With maximum Hit Points at level 1 he gets 8 (max for a d8) -5 (Con penalty) = 3 Hit Points. He has 1 Hit Die, so gets +6 Hit Points when fused, for a total of 9 Hit Points. That's that same as if he'd just had max Hit Points and a Con of 13... so all seems in order...

However! :o

Taking average Hit Points from level 2 onwards, the 'minimum of 1' rule helps the guy out. Now he has 4.5 (average of a d8) -5 = -0.5, but upped to the minimum of 1. +6 when fused = a total of +7 Hit Points per level. Any other character with a straight Con of 13 would have only +5.5 Hit Points per level. By dumping his Con all the way, the min-max Synthesist gains +1.5 Hit Points per level.

Also, stuff like the Toughness Feat and the favoured class bonus to Hit Points add on top of the minimum of 1 (that's the minimum for your Hit Die alone), so he still makes out like the proverbial bandit.

By constrast, a Con 13 Fighter is only getting 6.5 Hit Points per level - half a Hit Point behind the min-maxed Sythesist!

Note: I'm in no way suggesting anyone actually use this twink-monster as a character (even though the image of a frail old coot transformed into überguy for adventures does sort of appeal...), but I tend to feel it's better to be aware of the potential for this sort of thing before it hits your gaming table than trying to clean up the mess afterwards... ;)


ProfPotts wrote:
So the min-maxed Synthesist is vulnerable to poisons, getting murdered in his sleep, and the DM deciding to single him out for a specialised beating? So... just like every other character then... ;)

Yep. I never understood the ''summoner are vulnerable to sleep'' argument. In battle, ANY sleeping character is a ''dead'' character in my book.


Maerimydra wrote:
ProfPotts wrote:
So the min-maxed Synthesist is vulnerable to poisons, getting murdered in his sleep, and the DM deciding to single him out for a specialised beating? So... just like every other character then... ;)
Yep. I never understood the ''summoner are vulnerable to sleep'' argument. In battle, ANY sleeping character is a ''dead'' character in my book.

In battle, a character who is hit with sleep.. still is wearing all their armor, equipment and that jazz.

When they get woken up, they are still wearing all their stuff.

The Summoner who falls asleep in battle or more likely the summoner who had to sleep at night is a summoner who cannot summoner his Eidolon.

When I was playing a normal summoner after our other player left who was also playing a summoner, we've been ambushed a number of times. Nothing sucks more than being able to only summon up chiwawas to fight owlbears and trolls.

When I was playing my cav and we got ambushed at night, I had an armored coat I would put on instead of plate mail.


the sleep example is used I'n comparison to animal companions. since ac don't simply disappear if doctor Doolittle takes a nap.


Mojorat wrote:
the sleep example is used I'n comparison to animal companions. since ac don't simply disappear if doctor Doolittle takes a nap.

Ok so the summoner is maybe not as good as a druid, but what about the bard? Is a sleeping summoner worst than a sleeping bard? I don't think so. When he wakes up, he can call back is eidolon with a 2nd-level spell as a standard action.


Ævux wrote:


In battle, a character who is hit with sleep.. still is wearing all their armor, equipment and that jazz.

Well depending on how summoners are put to sleep, they might be pretty unlikely to be a victim of that attack. If it is magical sleep, a half elf summoner will be immune and most other summoners are going to have a high will save anyway(a 5-10% chance of being put to sleep is not a major weakness).

If it is through poison, well they have answers to poison and a summoner(regular or synthesist) needs to have a high fortitude save anyway as they also have death effects to worry about. In this case, a synthesist is at an advantage over a regular summoner as his con score is likely to be higher.

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The Summoner who falls asleep in battle or more likely the summoner who had to sleep at night is a summoner who cannot summoner his Eidolon.

When I was playing a normal summoner after our other player left who was also playing a summoner, we've been ambushed a number of times. Nothing sucks more than being able to only summon up chiwawas to fight owlbears and trolls.

When I was playing my cav and we got ambushed at night, I had an armored coat I would put on instead of plate mail.

Well actually night ambushes mess up everybody. Nobody is going to have their armor on unless they spent a feat on endurance or are wearing light armor. For those characters who wear heavy armor, a night ambush is going to leave them 10 points lower in ac as well and it takes more time to put on full plate then it does to cast summon eidolon and put on your eidolon suit.

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