Crafting a Lyre of Building - check my numbers?

Rules Questions

Ok, from my reading of the rules, this is what I've got for a 5th level Cleric to craft a Lyre of Building.

Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, fabricate; Cost 6,500 gp

Cost to craft: 3250gp (half of base cost)
Spellcraft target number: 24
- Base 5
- Caster Level 9 required: +9 (calculated from minimum Wizard level required to cast Fabricate)
- Less than caster level: +5
- Fabricate spell required, not on spell list: +5

Time to craft: 7 days (base cost 6500 / 1000, rounded up)

Am I right?

except a lyre of building cost 13000 gold so is 6500 to craft not sure where you get 3250 from other than it's half of the crafting cost.

Lyre of Building
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 6th

Slot —; Price 13,000 gp; Weight 5 lbs.

This magical instrument is usually made of gold and inlaid with ...

Construction Requirements
Craft Wondrous Item, fabricate; Cost 6,500 gp

Base: 5
Caster Level: 6 (not 9)
Less than Caster Level: 5
Fabricate Spell Required not cast: 5

Total 5+6+5+5 = 21
Time to Craft = 13 Days
Cost to Fabricate 6,500

For the Spell requirement "A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite. It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary."

Thank everything that crafting feats aren't allowed in PFS. Those rules are a nightmare.

I'm not 100% sure I would personally allow a crafter to craft items above his crafter level, ever (let alone for just a flat +5 on the check). I don't see text that strictly allows it (whereas I do see text that allows crafting at a lower level than you). Although I suppose the CL factoring into the base DC helps with that.

David's math is right, though, assuming you allow this.

Caster Level for Wonderous Items is set by the creator of the item and is used vs Dispel Magic or other counter magics. The only "Must Have" is the crafting feat, everything else is up for the +5 substitution for not meeting that requirement.

Some Creation Rules:

"Caster Level (CL): The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item's saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation.

For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself."

"Magic Item Creation
To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item's creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item (see Cursed Items for more information).

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."

So it could be argued that the +5 for not being CL 6 for the Lyre of Building could be dropped, as the Caster Level is not listed in the Requirements, as it is for the Golem Manuals - See "" for the FAQ on Pearls of Power creation.

David Thomassen wrote:
good stuff

Huh. Objection withdrawn. RAW, you don't need the +5 for caster level. With a scroll or friend casting the spell, the DC would only be 11, without it it's just 16.

I stand by my "these rules are a nightmare" statement though. Reading the entry on wondrous items might cause you to believe that the creator, personally, has to know/prepare the spell, though not have the materials. As other areas (magic arms and armor, for instance) have specific rules that trump the general...

If you interpret that as just saying "the item cost covers the material cost," a Wizard is a crafting machine. Let's say a Wiz3 with 18 INT (though I feel 20 is fair in point-buy), full points in spellcraft, but no skill focus. He's at a +10 for the check. He never fails creating a CL-6 item if he can just find the scroll. Without knowing the spell, he's looking at a 75% chance. With skill focus and perhaps a trait, he could be crafting items at twice his CL, without access to the spells, without a chance of failure.

This is why you only sell items for half price, ever. Otherwise, item crafting feats are gold mines.

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

You must meet the CL requirement to craft the item. You can't take a +5 penalty to work around it.

Preston Poulter wrote:
You must meet the CL requirement to craft the item. You can't take a +5 penalty to work around it.

Not according to the CRB FAQ (by Sean K Reynolds):


Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level.

For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement.

Interpreting that to the Lyre of Building, there is no caster level requirement in the requirements section. There is a spell. That's it. He can try, and by and large if he's got a good INT and invested in Spellcraft, a 3rd-level wizard is likely able to make a Lyre of Building...

Mojorat wrote:
except a lyre of building cost 13000 gold so is 6500 to craft not sure where you get 3250 from other than it's half of the crafting cost.

My bad - was looking at the crafting cost, thinking that was base cost.

David wrote:
Caster Level: 6 (not 9)

Right - again, looking at the wrong place. However, minimum caster level for Fabricate is Wizard 9, so I'm a little confused on how they got CL6.

There's no caster of sufficient level available so that +5 would stand either way. I wouldn't drop that requirement, as I'm a firm believer in the idea that crafting should not be extremely simple.

What sucks? The character in question is quite focused on crafting - he's got +15 in spellcraft already at level 4 (4 ranks, class skill +3, Int mod +3, Theoretical Magician trait +2, Skill Focus feat +3). So he plans on taking 10 for the crafting test, and breezing the build.

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