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Character: Alchemist(archetype)-internal alchemist/Master Chymist. I don't have my book with me and searched the board + PFSRD for this answer... found many discussions but no direct answer.
Mutagen - alchemical bonus to stat + natural armor.
Monsterous physique(MP) - Size bonus to Str/Con, Neg bonus to Dex + natural armor.
Undead Anatomy(UA) - Size bonus to Str/Con, Neg bonus to Dex + natural armor
The plan: Take the combined extract discovery (MP + UA) + Mutagen. What does it all wash down to what stacks and what does not?
--- If i remember right the MP/UA level I's give a size bonus of str and con + natural armor but your size does not change (assuming medium size). I believe that MP/UA level II spells do change your size... so could you take a UA I + MP II and gain both size bonuses + size increase?
I assume that the alchemical bonus from mutagen stats increase stacks with the size bonuses stat increase.
- Does the natural armor stack (MP + UA + Mutagen)?
- Does the size bonus from MP+UA stack? How about if they are different level spells with an actual size increase?
- Do the negatives to Dex stack?
I believe the Master Chymist has power that allows you to increase your size... how does that work in?
Thanks.
First Alchemist
They overlap. Only certain bonuses stack, and they are specifically listed as saying so.
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They overlap. Only certain bonuses stack, and they are specifically listed as saying so.
So the Mutagen alchemical bonus over laps with size bonuses? Why would they include them on the spell list then? I thought different bonuses types could stack? SO the Mutagen alchemical bonus stat increase and natural armor will not stack with the UA or MP?
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They overlap. Only certain bonuses stack, and they are specifically listed as saying so.
I know that some like bonuses do stack such as Dodge bonuses and i thought some natural armor bonuses do stack as well? I read the extracts and mutagens i don;t remeber anything specific being said about not stacking (as mentioned i do not have access to my book at this time).
Is their a list/post or site that makes clear what bonuses stack... i did research PFSRD and did not see a clear list of answer by anyone from PF?
Thanks once again.
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Size bonuses not only don't stack, you are also limited to one polymorph spell.Alchemist UA and MP are extracts and from everything i read they are not spell and do not qualify you for anything spell related as feats or meta magics... so does that rule apply to an extract?
Extracts are the most varied of the three. In many ways, they behave like spells in potion form, and as such their effects can be dispelled by effects like dispel magic using the alchemist's level as the caster level. Unlike potions, though, extracts can have powerful effects and duplicate spells that a potion normally could not.
Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn't get to make any decisions about the effect—the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).
Extracts work like potions. Potions work like spells.
And it also applies to abilities that are even less like spells, like wild shape. A druid is not able to transform into a animal elemental humanoid plant.
Undead Anatomy and Monstrous Physique do not stack - since they're both size bonuses. The Mutagen does stack with either Undead Anatomy or Monstrous Physique, as its an alchemical bonus.
You cannot apply Undead Anatomy and Monstrous Physique at the same time - only one polymorph effect applies at any one time.
The natural armor bonuses do not stack. Natural armor bonus and enhancement to natural armor bonus do stack. (So you could combine any one of your options Mutagen or Undead Anatomy or Monstrous Physique with an amulet of natural armor or barkskin.)
The Dexterity penalties do stack - but since you cannot use Undead Anatomy and Monstrous Physique at the same time, it doesn't matter.
They overlap. Only certain bonuses stack, and they are specifically listed as saying so.So the Mutagen alchemical bonus over laps with size bonuses? Why would they include them on the spell list then? I thought different bonuses types could stack? SO the Mutagen alchemical bonus stat increase and natural armor will not stack with the UA or MP?
As long as the bonuses are of different types they stack.
I misworded my last post. I was trying to say only certain bonuses stack with themselves.
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Undead Anatomy and Monstrous Physique do not stack - since they're both size bonuses. The Mutagen does stack with either Undead Anatomy or Monstrous Physique, as its an alchemical bonus.
You cannot apply Undead Anatomy and Monstrous Physique at the same time - only one polymorph effect applies at any one time.
The natural armor bonuses do not stack. Natural armor bonus and enhancement to natural armor bonus do stack. (So you could combine any one of your options Mutagen or Undead Anatomy or Monstrous Physique with an amulet of natural armor or barkskin.)
The Dexterity penalties do stack - but since you cannot use Undead Anatomy and Monstrous Physique at the same time, it doesn't matter.
Thanks alot that is very clear - i appreciate and all those who posted.
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Extracts are the most varied of the three. In many ways, they behave like spells in potion form, and as such their effects can be dispelled by effects like dispel magic using the alchemist's level as the caster level. Unlike potions, though, extracts can have powerful effects and duplicate spells that a potion normally could not.
Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn't get to make any decisions about the effect—the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).Extracts work like potions. Potions work like spells.
Hmmm the wording of extracts seems a bit vague - "In many ways, they behave like spells in potion form" and "Unlike potions, though, extracts can have powerful effects and duplicate spells that a potion normally could not"
- In many ways?- effects that duplicat spells?
Then by the logic of...
"Extracts work like potions. Potions work like spells"
you could easily say...
Since Spells make potions and potions are "like" extracts that you could then apply any feat / meta magic to a spell to make a potion could you not apply the same to an extract? I know that is not true but then does the poor alchemist get the worse of both worlds? Not try to be argumentative. lol
Just saying that if an extract is is a potion and a potion is liquid form of a spell should they not also be able to use Magic meta magics?
Extracts Work Like Potions.
Potions Work Like Spells.
Extracts Are Not Potions.
Potions Are Not Spells.
The best example is Personal spells. A Personal Spell only works on the caster. Alchemists can't cast a spell. You can't make a potion of a spell that has a range of Personal. However, you can make an Extract of that spell. It functions like a potion in that you can drink it when you want it, and it affects you directly after you drink it (You are caster and target).
Second example is level 4, 5, and 6 Alchemist formulas. Potions cannot duplicate effects of spells higher than level 3. Extracts, however, despite working like potions, can duplicate spell effects at level 4, 5, and 6. Again, works like a potion in that you have to drink it, but it's a higher level spell than a potion can do.
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OK i think i am getting it... lol slowly. Here a what if (yes i know we could do this all day... but bare with me please)
If I was Large sized (say from perm effect or Gaint template) and took an UA extract.. i would recieve no bonuses to Str/Con from the extract as i was already large size but i would gain the other benefits of the spell such as some of the undead powers? I would also not lose any dex either?
OK i think i am getting it... lol slowly. Here a what if (yes i know we could do this all day... but bare with me please)
If I was Large sized (say from perm effect or Gaint template) and took an UA extract.. i would recieve no bonuses to Str/Con from the extract as i was already large size but i would gain the other benefits of the spell such as some of the undead powers? I would also not lose any dex either?
From a strict RAW, yes, you are correct. This is because the Giant template adds bonuses of type Size. Personally, I don't like that, as it should, IMHO be a racial or untyped bonus, but RAW is what it is. In my own games, I houserule it to be non-typed bonuses. Same with a permanent Enlarge Person spell, it's a size bonus.
Now, if you were naturally a large creature (Say, a Centaur or Troll), then you would still get benefit of either Enlarge Person or Undead Anatomy, as you have no size bonuses to stats.