Looking for a home for this character


Gamer Connection

Sovereign Court

Okay, so in this thread, I was inspired to take up a challange, create a by the rules foolish cleric using 15 point buy.

I have done so and this is the guy.

Terry Hammerstein
LN Human Cleric 1
Init +0; Senses: Perception -2
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defense
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AC 18 (+6 Armor, +2 Shield) FF 18 Touch 10
HP 9
Fort +3, Reflex +0, Will +0
CMD 12
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Offense
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Speed 20ft
Melee +2 Heavy Mace (1d8+2)
Ranged +0 Sling (1d4+2)

Gentle Rest: 1/day; melee touch staggers living creature for 1 round, if creature is already staggered, it falls asleep for 1 round.

Death's Kiss: 1/day; melee touch treats creature as undead for the effects that deal with positive energy, lasts 1 round
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Statistics
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Str 14, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 7, Cha 18
BAB +0, CMB +2
Feats: Selective Channel, Extra Channel
Skills: Diplomacy +8, Intimidate +9, Knowledge (Religion) +5, Use Magic Device, +9
Domains: Death (Undead subdomain), Repose
Traits: Bully, Dangerously Curious
Languages Common, Dwarven
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Special Abilities
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Channel Energy: 9/day; 30 ft radius burst; 1d6

I'm working on his backstory now, I'll post it when I've finished but basically he's a cleric who focuses on melee combat and channeling, he doesn't comprehend the strehgth of will it takes to cast spells, but he genuinely wants to keep people alive so that they'll come to revere pharasma before ultimately facing their judgement, so he channels in order to keep his allies up.

Sovereign Court

With new channel feats in ultimate magic and ultimate combat this character is looking more appealing every day.


I shall start you in the swamps of sadness, please make a WIL saving throw DC 30 or sink into quicksand and fail to save the princess by calling out her new name.

Should you make the save you are eaten by an ancient, and annoyed, talking turtle, a giant one at that.

P.S. Phrasma rejects your prayers due to you trying to get her to grant you the Undead Subdomain, and banishes your soul to the nothingness of oblivion. You may do nothing ever again with this character.

Liberty's Edge

Ouch! Rest in peace, ye Terry of Hammerstein!

Sovereign Court

Negative Space wrote:

I shall start you in the swamps of sadness, please make a WIL saving throw DC 30 or sink into quicksand and fail to save the princess by calling out her new name.

Should you make the save you are eaten by an ancient, and annoyed, talking turtle, a giant one at that.

P.S. Phrasma rejects your prayers due to you trying to get her to grant you the Undead Subdomain, and banishes your soul to the nothingness of oblivion. You may do nothing ever again with this character.

Pharasma's dislike of undead is exactly why I took it. Know thine enemy.


Phrasma and the Death Domain:

"Pharasma-Friendly" Death Domain

In the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, the principal goddess of death is stringently anti-undead. Clerics of Pharasma may take the Death Domain with the following modifications:

Pharasma-Friendly Death Domain 3rd-level domain spell: Replace animate dead with speak with dead. 6th-level domain spell: Replace create undead with antilife shell. 8th-level domain spell: Replace create greater undead with symbol of death.

Source: Paizo Blog

I don't even think I need to, but I will, point out that the Undead subdomain is "pro" undead. i.e. Phrasma would hold out her fiery right hand and say "Oh no you didn't girlfriend!" and then smack you back down to protoplasm size.

So...You are even more obliterated for not knowing the wills of the goddess, but on the plus side this is the most action this character has seen in months!

I guess you truly roleplayed that poor wisdom, go ahead and level up to 2, but your still banished to oblivion.

Good Job!

Liberty's Edge

Ya I'd have to agree, she is very anti-undead, and that particular subdomain is rather flavored for necromancy in my opinion anyway.

Tough Call because while she is anti undead, she does cater to evil alignments. But in the end I too think she wouldn't allow that.

p.s.
If your going by what she does allow via the core rules I think this wiki is accurate in saying she grants the following domains and subdomains:

Domains Death, Healing, Knowledge, Repose, Water
Subdomains Ancestors, Ice, Memory, Resurrection, Souls, Thought

http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Pharasma

edit: but, we are talking about Terry Hammerstein here, I'm sure he can find a way out of this mess.

Sovereign Court

Negative Space wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

I don't even think I need to, but I will, point out that the Undead subdomain is "pro" undead. i.e. Phrasma would hold out her fiery right hand and say "Oh no you didn't girlfriend!" and then smack you back down to protoplasm size.

So...You are even more obliterated for not knowing the wills of the goddess, but on the plus side this is the most action this character has seen in months!

I guess you truly roleplayed that poor wisdom, go ahead and level up to 2, but your still banished to oblivion.

Good Job!

point me to where it says the undead subdomain is "pro" undead. Don't add any personal interpretation to it, just quote me a single line where it says the undead domain means you are pro undead.

Now if there's something from the books I don't have that says she doesn't allow it (it doesn't even grant undead creating spells, so no issues there) I'll accept that, but nothing in the write up in Carrion Crown, and nothing in the APG say it isn't allowed. I take it as a I have knowledge of undead because it helps me to destroy them. and it also works for his low wisdom when other priest give a bwah? But nothing in the rules nor in the write up of the subdomian do either of those.

Sovereign Court

Winterwalker wrote:


edit: but, we are talking about Terry Hammerstein here, I'm sure he can find a way out of this mess.

the line in my last quote "point me to where it says the undead subdomain is "pro" undead. Don't add any personal interpretation to it, just quote me a single line where it says the undead domain means you are pro undead." I can imagine Terry saying to another priest who tries to berate him.

Sovereign Court

Negative Space wrote:

"Pharasma-Friendly" Death Domain

In the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, the principal goddess of death is stringently anti-undead. Clerics of Pharasma may take the Death Domain with the following modifications:

Pharasma-Friendly Death Domain 3rd-level domain spell: Replace animate dead with speak with dead. 6th-level domain spell: Replace create undead with antilife shell. 8th-level domain spell: Replace create greater undead with symbol of death.

Source: Paizo Blog

I do appreciate that though as I didn't know about that, but wasn't an issue since Terry can't cast spells.

Liberty's Edge

lastknightleft wrote:
Negative Space wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

I don't even think I need to, but I will, point out that the Undead subdomain is "pro" undead. i.e. Phrasma would hold out her fiery right hand and say "Oh no you didn't girlfriend!" and then smack you back down to protoplasm size.

So...You are even more obliterated for not knowing the wills of the goddess, but on the plus side this is the most action this character has seen in months!

I guess you truly roleplayed that poor wisdom, go ahead and level up to 2, but your still banished to oblivion.

Good Job!

point me to where it says the undead subdomain is "pro" undead. Don't add any personal interpretation to it, just quote me a single line where it says the undead domain means you are pro undead.

Now if there's something from the books I don't have that says she doesn't allow it (it doesn't even grant undead creating spells, so no issues there) I'll accept that, but nothing in the write up in Carrion Crown, and nothing in the APG say it isn't allowed. I take it as a I have knowledge of undead because it helps me to destroy them. and it also works for his low wisdom when other priest give a bwah? But nothing in the rules nor in the write up of the subdomian do either of those.

"Oh that's easy."

Pharasma is also the goddess of birth and prophecy: from the moment a creature is born, she sees what its ultimate fate will be, but reserves final judgement until that soul finally stands before her. As the goddess of death and rebirth, she abhors the undead and considers them a perversion.
Source: Sean K Reynolds. (2008). Gods and Magic, p. 30-31. Paizo Publishing, LLC. ISBN 978-1-60125-139-8

This latter fact leads Pharasma to grant modified powers through the Death domain and the Soul subdomain when they are granted to her followers. Spells that her followers are granted do not have the ability to benefit or create undead; this is not the case for other deities granting their followers access to this domain and subdomain.
Source:James Jacobs. (10 February 2011). Golarion Day: Other Gods and New Subdomains, Paizo Blog.

Now, look at the granted power:

Undead
Associated Domain: Death.

Replacement Power: The following granted power replaces the bleeding touch power of the Death domain.

Death’s Kiss (Su): You can cause a creature to take on some of the traits of the undead with a melee touch attack. Touched creatures are treated as undead for the purposes of effects that heal or cause damage based on positive and negative energy. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your cleric level (minimum 1). It does not apply to the Turn Undead or Command Undead feats. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

Replacement Domain Spells: 2nd—ghoul touch, 4th—enervation, 9th—energy drain.

"Death's kiss 'creates' an undead...which is a no-no in Pharasma's eyes, even if it is temporary. There is no bias, or personal feelings involved from me on that part."

"Now my personal opinion, this is a good thing for evil necromancers that want to heal their allies and their undead pets. Could that also be used to hurt a bad guy by making him feel your positive energy burst after doing this? ya possible, but the flavor here is the Undead domain, really is pro-undead.

I also Based on other supporting facts like the Undead Lord requiring it, where that class is clearly a pro-undead class. But who needs more pesky supporting arguments, when the above already proves my point. ;)"

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Looks like he'll be at least 12th level before he can cast 0 level spells, due to low wisdom. I guess that's ok with this character, though.


He could repent his erroneous ways and maybe Pharasma would just let him try to escape the Turtles Stomach.

Then having killed the mighty wise Turtle of the Swamp Of Sorrow, he could take his Toe Ring of Wet Wisdom, +2 WIS bonus! But makes you allergic to everything.

Sovereign Court

Winterwalker wrote:


"Oh that's easy."
"Death's kiss 'creates' an undead...

No no it doesn't, argument fail.

Taking on the traits of =/= becomes. If I grow feathers and talons did I become a bird, If I drink blood and fly did i become a mosquito? I took on some traits of birds or mosquitos I did not become one.

By your argument vampires are mosquitos.

Supporting argument

winterwalker wrote:
I also Based on other supporting facts like the Undead Lord requiring it, where that class is clearly a pro-undead class. But who needs more pesky supporting arguments, when the above already proves my point. ;)"

that's not an argument at all, the undead lord requires undead domain because it can be pro undead. but there's nothing in the undead subdomain that supports the argument that it has to be, it can be a weapon against undead and those who would create them.

to put your argument in other terms...
Law enforcement requires officers to carry guns therefore guns are pro law enforcement.

I agree that undead domain requires a focus on undead, but a burning desire to destroy them or an obsession with ridding the earth of them is a representation of a focus on undead.

Nice try though, step right up, Next batter, next batter.

Sovereign Court

Chris Ballard wrote:
Looks like he'll be at least 12th level before he can cast 0 level spells, due to low wisdom. I guess that's ok with this character, though.

He'll never be able to cast 0 level spells, as I don't intend to bump wisdom. After all, the one consistent trait of having no common sense is that you don't realize you have no common sense.

Sovereign Court

Quote:

Pharasma is also the goddess of birth and prophecy: from the moment a creature is born, she sees what its ultimate fate will be, but reserves final judgement until that soul finally stands before her. As the goddess of death and rebirth, she abhors the undead and considers them a perversion.

Source: Sean K Reynolds. (2008). Gods and Magic, p. 30-31. Paizo Publishing, LLC. ISBN 978-1-60125-139-8

This latter fact leads Pharasma to grant modified powers through the Death domain and the Soul subdomain when they are granted to her followers. Spells that her followers are granted do not have the ability to benefit or create undead; this is not the case for other deities granting their followers access to this domain and subdomain.
Source:James Jacobs. (10 February 2011). Golarion Day: Other Gods and New Subdomains, Paizo Blog.

Absolutely nothing here talks about or applies to the undead subdomain, which he easily could have if he wanted to since he specifically mentions the soul subdomain.

Liberty's Edge

How about the base simple fact, you took a subdomain she doesn't offer?


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Subdomains offered by Pharasma: Ancestors, Ice, Memory, Resurrection, Souls, Thought. Listed in the chart on p. 91 of the APG.


I kind of want Father Grimburrow to jump kick this guy.

Sovereign Court

Joana wrote:
Subdomains offered by Pharasma: Ancestors, Ice, Memory, Resurrection, Souls, Thought. Listed in the chart on p. 91 of the APG.

See that's something concrete, I use the PRD which doesn't have that chart, so I didn't know that. Now that I know that, I'll change the domain, however, the arguements that I made I stand by, There's nothing in the undead subdomain that requires a pro undead stance.

and if i'm playing in a non pathfinder game, I'll use this statblock with whatever death diety I can. but for pathfinder games I'll change it.

So for pathfinder games, change the domain ability to the standard death ability

Sovereign Court

Hamied wrote:
I kind of want Father Grimburrow to jump kick this guy.

I have no idea what you're talking about.


lastknightleft wrote:
Hamied wrote:
I kind of want Father Grimburrow to jump kick this guy.
I have no idea what you're talking about.

Sorry, I was just being silly. He's an NPC from Carrion Crown. A very old NPC...one who would not likely be able to pull of a jump kick.

I like characters that play against type and I do find your concept interesting, but undead are entirely abhorrent to Pharasma. I just don't see it working in her case, mechanics aside.

Sovereign Court

Hamied wrote:
lastknightleft wrote:
Hamied wrote:
I kind of want Father Grimburrow to jump kick this guy.
I have no idea what you're talking about.

Sorry, I was just being silly. He's an NPC from Carrion Crown. A very old NPC...one who would not likely be able to pull of a jump kick.

I like characters that play against type and I do find your concept interesting, but undead are entirely abhorrent to Pharasma. I just don't see it working in her case, mechanics aside.

Well as I said earlier despite the fact that no one has put forth a compelling argument that the undead subdomain means you are pro undead, as it isn't a subdomain that Pharasma grants as listed in the APG I changed it to just the death domain ability. Because setting rules trump base rules and the setting doesn't allow it. however, if I were DMing and someone came to me with the arguments I made right now, I'd allow it if the situation that I was working with at the time I made the character (no evidence to the contrary exists in the PRD or the write up of Pharasma in the AP). But seeing as the APG does list it, that puts a kibosh on the whole thing.

The Exchange

It doesn't say in the rules Kobolds can blink, but they can. It doesn't say "this subdomain is pro-undead" but your too sold on the idea it isn't to see that.

But, hey find a GM that feels the same way you do, and then there's no problem.

Sovereign Court

Dungeon Master WA-74 wrote:

It doesn't say in the rules Kobolds can blink, but they can. It doesn't say "this subdomain is pro-undead" but your too sold on the idea it isn't to see that.

But, hey find a GM that feels the same way you do, and then there's no problem.

In other words I don't actually have an argument but hyperbole works just as well in its place. And kobolds may not blink depending on the setting, that kind of thing is up to the DM left that way because it has no effect on the game rules. And if I was too sold on the idea, I wouldn't have already conceded in golarion (because that's a setting rule which I agree applies) and changed it to the death domain power.

The Exchange

I don't think you understand what hyperbole means, as I made no such arguments involving one.


So I guess a spell list with create undead adn create greater udnead isn't "pro" enough for you.

Well beyond any of this, and here's the important bit, according to the advanced Player's guide Undead is not a subdomain available to Pharasma despite having the Death domain just like Archon is not an available subdomain to Asmodeus even though he has Law. So regardless of whether or not you feel you should take it the fact is that it's quite simply against the rules.

And being a cleric with 7 wisdom I wouldn't let him anywhere near my games.


In fact for your benefit I will list what is avaialble to pharasma by copy+pasting directly from my book.

Domains:
Death, Healing, Knowledge, Repose,

Subdomains:
Water Ancestors, Ice, Memory, Resurrection, Souls, Thought

Sovereign Court

Dungeon Master WA-74 wrote:

I don't think you understand what hyperbole means, as I made no such arguments involving one.

hyberbole is an exagerated statement comparing what I said to koblod blinking not being in the rules is an exagerated statement.

Sovereign Court

TarkXT wrote:

So I guess a spell list with create undead adn create greater udnead isn't "pro" enough for you.

And being a cleric with 7 wisdom I wouldn't let him anywhere near my games.

Um did you check the undead sub-domain, it grants neither of those spells.

PRD undead subdomain wrote:


Replacement Domain Spells: 2nd—ghoul touch, 4th—enervation, 9th—energy drain.

The death domain provides those spells, so your argument is that the Death domain is pro-undead which is funny, your the first person to try that argument since death domain is one of Pharasma's domains. and if you read this thread another poster linked a blog post stating that clerics of pharasma can take the death domain by switching out those spells, but I guess just blanket banning of characters is so much more fun for you play style than letting a player actually try something.

And what I like is that you've ignored me state several times that I would change it because I didn't have that info because I don't actually use the Advanced Players Guide, I use the PRD. Once someone already mentioned what you've felt the need to repeat, I conceeded that I couldn't use it with Pharasma and said I'd use the standard death ability.

Liberty's Edge

Pharasma's ban on undead has been (very slightly) diminished in Faiths of Balance : "While necromancy has many beneficial spells that allow you to care for both the dead and the living, you may not create undead, nor control them unless you do so specifically for the purpose of destroying them." (Taboos of Pharasma, page 17 of Faiths of Balance).

Before that, even controlling undead was seen by a great many as anathema to a devoted Pharasmin.

Sovereign Court

The black raven wrote:

Pharasma's ban on undead has been (very slightly) diminished in Faiths of Balance : "While necromancy has many beneficial spells that allow you to care for both the dead and the living, you may not create undead, nor control them unless you do so specifically for the purpose of destroying them." (Taboos of Pharasma, page 17 of Faiths of Balance).

Before that, even controlling undead was seen by a great many as anathema to a devoted Pharasmin.

Wow, using undead related things for the purpose of destroying them, that sounds so familiar its almost as if that's the exact reason I took the sub-domain. Thank you so much for posting that, it may not help since the sub-domain still isn't allowed for Pharasma, but it's nice to have proof of concept.

Liberty's Edge

lastknightleft wrote:
The black raven wrote:

Pharasma's ban on undead has been (very slightly) diminished in Faiths of Balance : "While necromancy has many beneficial spells that allow you to care for both the dead and the living, you may not create undead, nor control them unless you do so specifically for the purpose of destroying them." (Taboos of Pharasma, page 17 of Faiths of Balance).

Before that, even controlling undead was seen by a great many as anathema to a devoted Pharasmin.

Wow, using undead related things for the purpose of destroying them, that sounds so familiar its almost as if that's the exact reason I took the sub-domain. Thank you so much for posting that, it may not help since the sub-domain still isn't allowed for Pharasma, but it's nice to have proof of concept.

Be aware that, from my understanding, the "unless..." applies to control and not creation of undead. But it is a chink in the armor.

Concerning the sub-domain matter, you could talk your DM into allowing you to use the Separatist Archetype (from UM) to get the sub-domain, even though the Archetype by RAW is restricted to domains (and thus apparently not sub-domains) that are not on the deity's list.

Sovereign Court

The black raven wrote:
lastknightleft wrote:
The black raven wrote:

Pharasma's ban on undead has been (very slightly) diminished in Faiths of Balance : "While necromancy has many beneficial spells that allow you to care for both the dead and the living, you may not create undead, nor control them unless you do so specifically for the purpose of destroying them." (Taboos of Pharasma, page 17 of Faiths of Balance).

Before that, even controlling undead was seen by a great many as anathema to a devoted Pharasmin.

Wow, using undead related things for the purpose of destroying them, that sounds so familiar its almost as if that's the exact reason I took the sub-domain. Thank you so much for posting that, it may not help since the sub-domain still isn't allowed for Pharasma, but it's nice to have proof of concept.

Be aware that, from my understanding, the "unless..." applies to control and not creation of undead. But it is a chink in the armor.

Concerning the sub-domain matter, you could talk your DM into allowing you to use the Separatist Archetype (from UM) to get the sub-domain, even though the Archetype by RAW is restricted to domains (and thus apparently not sub-domains) that are not on the deity's list.

I'm not actually worried about it, I wanted the undead subdomain because it felt a lot less violent for the character I was building than the cause bleed ability of the death domain, and so it felt like a better fit and the fact that it worked with his channeling focus and fit thematically with my idea for the character. But since it's not allowed, I'm fine with the death domain.

I just haven't heard a compelling argument as to having the undead sub-domain means you are pro undead rather than just focused on undead.


I get the image of a Pharasmic cleric guiding various undead into giant underground caverns (like carbon capture) using control undead schemes...

Until a major seismic event leads to the caverns cracking open and the undead climbing over each other to escape, leading to zombie apocalypse!

Actually, that could be a campaign right there.

Sovereign Court

Retech wrote:

I get the image of a Pharasmic cleric guiding various undead into giant underground caverns (like carbon capture) using control undead schemes...

Until a major seismic event leads to the caverns cracking open and the undead climbing over each other to escape, leading to zombie apocalypse!

Actually, that could be a campaign right there.

I think that if they did that their whole intention would have been to collapse the cavern on them all crushing them.

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