Does the "switch hitter" still work well (in Pathfinder Society)?


Advice

Grand Lodge

I know builds change as time goes by (with added feats and errata and stuff).

I'm trying to build an effective character for my first PFS game. I am very new to Pathfinder, and most of my D&D experience is in 2nd edition.

I have been trying to do some research scouring these boards and the Internet for some good advice.

I have concluded that a "switch hitter" is a very good build theme for me. The idea is to be proficient at ranged attacks, and even better in melee - soften up the enemies as they approach and finish them with a Falchion if they get class enough. The versatility of the build appeals to me.

Anyway, I have found some good advice on this matter, but I wanted to run this by you guys who have a fresh look on the game before proceeding. The last thing I want to do is gimp my first character.

Anyway, my build ideas are as follows:

1) Ranger in medium armor, probably 14-16 DEX, chooses the archery Ranger path, but concentrates on melee feats (power attack, cleave, ect.). The added skills are a boon.

2) Fighter in medium armor. This guy gets so many feats he can afford to be versatile (but can he? Is there enough feats to be good at multiple styles?). With INT as a dump stat, this guy won't have many skills (but does it really matter?).

3) Slayer. This class seems to be a lot like the Ranger, but I get the impression I won't be getting quite as many feats. Not sure how true this is.

I look forward to your replies and advice. I'm definitely open to other build ideas, as well as racial, feat, and skill advice. Thank you for taking the time to help out a newb.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

The feat Point Blank Master made switch hitting a lot less useful. Now a Ranger or fighter can use a bow even when surrounded by enemies without having to worry about AoO. While switch hitting has not diminished in effectiveness there is now a more effective strategy.

Grand Lodge

I would put switch hitter in kind of a mid tier of viability for martials.

They will never be as good at either range or melee as someone focused on either aspect. They are also generally more MAD (multi-attribute dependent) than either focus (or at least as MAD). The final problem I have with them is that most combats in PFS (at least in my experience) are over relatively quickly and from relatively close starting positions, thus the ability to fire from range and close to melee is generally dampened.

That's kind of the bad side IMO. On the good side it can be done with a number of classes with very different builds. It makes you more versatile in responding to threats. I think the feat Vital Strike, really pays off in this build since it will let you shoot at increased damage, move and/or move and melee at increased damage.

I would suggest as I do with all players, if you like a concept play it. Switch hitters are definitely useable.

Grand Lodge

BartonOliver wrote:

I would put switch hitter in kind of a mid tier of viability for martials.

They will never be as good at either range or melee as someone focused on either aspect. They are also generally more MAD (multi-attribute dependent) than either focus (or at least as MAD). The final problem I have with them is that most combats in PFS (at least in my experience) are over relatively quickly and from relatively close starting positions, thus the ability to fire from range and close to melee is generally dampened.

That's kind of the bad side IMO. On the good side it can be done with a number of classes with very different builds. It makes you more versatile in responding to threats. I think the feat Vital Strike, really pays off in this build since it will let you shoot at increased damage, move and/or move and melee at increased damage.

I would suggest as I do with all players, if you like a concept play it. Switch hitters are definitely useable.

Thanks, to both of you.

The reason I'm quoting you, BartonOliver, is because I'm not "all in" on this concept. I am just seeking a concept that will work well for me. I want to be an effective combatant - a fun character will be created no matter what.

I'm glad I made this thread though. Should I settle on an archer type build, finding out about this "Point Blank Master" feat Mysterious Stranger mentioned.

Thanks again! I'll come up with something!


What are you looking to play? If you are looking to play primarily an archer who can survive melee than Point Blank Master is the better way to go. If you want to play a melee character that is good with a bow then the switch hitter is actually pretty decent. This works better for a ranger than a fighter since you can ignore the prerequisites for your bonus feats. Even though a fighter gets a ton of feats it takes a while to get all the feats you need. With a ranger or slayer you can pick up just the feats you want and ignore the rest.

Keep in mind that all characters should be able to function both at range and in melee. I have seen too many people ignore ranged and then become useless when they can’t reach the enemy. By the same token it is quite easy to shut down a ranged character. Even with point blank master you can still run out of ammunition. Any martial characters should at least have both a ranged and melee weapon. They don’t necessarily need to spend feats on both, but should have both available to them.

The archer has the advantage that they get to make more attacks. The disadvantage is they also have more penalties to deal with. If you are going full archer you will probably spend all your feats on archery with nothing left over for anything else. With Melee all you really need is Power Attack.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

A few quick considerations from my phone.

Switch hitter is a fine build, especially for PFS where versatility is a premium (since you don't usually know the party makeup in advance).

I'd recommend Ranger for a few reasons: (1) avoid prereqs on archery feats if you choose to focus primarily on melee, (2) extra skill points (versatility), (3) can use a wand of CLW (versatility—my last PFS table we had no one who could use a wand and it hurt!).

Slayer's also good (though losing the wand or needing to invest significantly in UMD does hurt some—on the other hand, their targeting ability is more flexible than Favored Enemy and you can grab trapfinding, another nice thing for the party to have ...), but I would avoid Fighter. The extra skills and abilities that either Slayer or Ranger give you are very nice (again, especially in PFS).

Between Slayer or Ranger might want to go Ranger just because it's fewer books required (since you're new to PF/PFS). Lowers cost of entry, both money and time.


Switch-hitter is still a viable option, just make sure you take quickdraw feat to change between weapons faster. Ranger would be my choice for class as well, he still holds he's own with just core material imo.

Recommended feats: quickdraw, deadly aim, power attack. (On top of those already mentioned earlier.)

Grand Lodge

Honestly I think quickdraw is overrated for this type of build, since it doesn't help you're action economy. (It works well with thrown weapons and in a couple other cases) Here's why, Quick draw doesn't speed up sheathing weapons (move action).

Thus, generally your best option for switching between one attack and another is move (move or 5ft) into position and attack (standard or full, if 5ft) with one (generally ranged to lead off) end turn. On beginning of next turn, drop bow as a free action (could be done on first turn), draw sword (or other melee) as part of your move (as long as you have BAB+1 or higher) and melee (standard). You're now stuck in melee until end of combat but generally manageable (unless you carry backup weapons). At end of combat you go retrieve your dropped weapon.

Quickdraw's only general benefit is the ability to drop your bow(free) and draw a sword (swift) in your first action so as to threaten and possibly take AoO's, but the majority of the time you're still to far out from combat to matter.

Point-Blank Master is one of 2 non-core archery feats that more than pull their weight IMO, from the Advanced Player's Guide (APG)

Ranger is probably the best switch hitter in the game as people have said. Fighter (no archetype) is probably the best archer for a PFS career (and one of the most consistent), while there is one other archer who is probably better at high level. Melee can be accomplished any number of effective ways by any number of classes.

However, all of these including the information on feats is just my opinion, and viability can be accomplished any number of ways. As long as you contribute something to the party any option is a good option.


My personal opinion, yes. As MS said, "... switch hitting has not diminished in effectiveness there is now a more effective strategy." I mostly agree with that. Sometimes the point blank master is not quite as good as a switch hitter.

In PFS, I don't think you will very often see a whole lot of chances to use both in the same combat. Either you will be shooting in combat and it is over. Or you will be in melee and it is over.

I just haven't seen whole lots of occasions where you start shooting, the bad guys close, and then you switch to melee. It happens, but not all the time.

However, what does happen all the time in PFS is that table makeup will make one or the other much more useful.

Few months ago we had a whole table full of melee and close range caster guys. I think 3 of the combats started at significant range with obstacles in the way to make closing take more time (castle wall, wide pit, stairs).
The guys endured a fair amount of arrow and spell before getting into ideal range. Yes, they all had a sling or normal bow. But they were so bad with them that they all decided it was better to endure getting close.

Archer only builds are also pretty popular at our local. So several times we have had a table with no one to 'get up close and personal' with the bad guy. So if things started close, it was pretty challenging.

In either of those cases, a switch hitter would have been immensely popular. Plus, I prefer builds that can do more than one thing.

I would probably recommend the ranger path for a new player. But slayer also has some nice possibilities.


BartonOliver wrote:

Honestly I think quickdraw is overrated for this type of build, since it doesn't help you're action economy. (It works well with thrown weapons and in a couple other cases) Here's why, Quick draw doesn't speed up sheathing weapons (move action).

Thus, generally your best option for switching between one attack and another is move (move or 5ft) into position and attack (standard or full, if 5ft) with one (generally ranged to lead off) end turn. On beginning of next turn, drop bow as a free action (could be done on first turn), draw sword (or other melee) as part of your move (as long as you have BAB+1 or higher) and melee (standard). You're now stuck in melee until end of combat but generally manageable (unless you carry backup weapons). At end of combat you go retrieve your dropped weapon.

Quickdraw's only general benefit is the ability to drop your bow(free) and draw a sword (swift) in your first action so as to threaten and possibly take AoO's, but the majority of the time you're still to far out from combat to matter.

Point-Blank Master is one of 2 non-core archery feats that more than pull their weight IMO, from the Advanced Player's Guide (APG)

Quickdraw makes a difference if you've got more than one attack. It could be delayed though.

Point-Blank Master is really nice and kind of makes the switch-hitter less important. OTOH, you only get it at 6th level (as a ranger). You're going to want something to do when the enemy gets close to you at lower levels.


Skip the middle man, go cavalier, preferably small, with a wolf mount, and say high to things as you cover 100' in a single turn at level 1.... Incidentally, mine actually does carry 3 pilums for when i just can't reach... i'm about to hit level 5, i have used 2 so far... Once when my wolf died, and another against a flying creature.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Here's a super-quick switch-hitting Core-only Ranger build. I'm sure it's not the most optimal, but it's straightforward, flexible, and plenty effective. I've chosen the party bond rather than the animal companion just because it's simpler.

Human Core Ranger

Str 18 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 8

01 Reactionary, Indomitable Faith; [fe] Humans; [b] Deadly Aim, Power Attack
02 [b] Precise Shot
03 [ft] Underground; Weapon Focus (falchion)
04 +1 Str [= 19]; [bond] Party
05 [fe] Undead; Iron Will
06 [b] Improved Precise Shot
07 Lunge
08 +1 Str [= 20]; [ft] Urban
09 Improved Critical (falchion)
10 [fe] Outsider (evil); [b] Manyshot
11 Critical Focus

Skills: you have a ton of skill points; other than max Perception, use as desired.

Main equipment: +X falchion (adamantine if desired), boots of speed, +X strength belt (or str/dex belt if desired), +X mithral breastplate, +1 composite longbow (Str-3)**, +2 wisdom headband

Quick lvl 11 equipment build-out (78,575 gp out of 82,000 wbl):
+3 adamantine falchion (22,375), boots of speed (12,000), +2 str/dex belt (10,000), +1 composite longbow (Str-3) (2,000**); +3 mithral breastplate (13,200), +1 amulet of natural armor (2,000), +1 ring of protection (2,000); +3 cloak of resistance (9,000), handy haversack (2,000), +2 wisdom headband (4,000)

** I'm assuming that you purchase the base bow with Prestige, hence the lower Strength rating. Could always purchase with gold and go for a Str-4 or Str-5.

Sovereign Court

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
The feat Point Blank Master made switch hitting a lot less useful. Now a Ranger or fighter can use a bow even when surrounded by enemies without having to worry about AoO. While switch hitting has not diminished in effectiveness there is now a more effective strategy.

This. And while switch-hitting wasn't technically nerfed - in effect it was from a relative perspective.

(Also why I banned Point Blank Master in my home games. It removed the one weakness of the archery builds. Archery is powerful enough without it.)

Shadow Lodge

For PFS I would also recomend ranger over warrior. Aside from beijg able to use a wand there is a lot of skill checks in PFS and I like to be able to make them. If you go ranger check out the guide archetype, its my favorite. Also the furious focus feat is better than cleave imo. Have fun.

Lantern Lodge

I would advise against switch hitting. My first PFS was a ranger who I conceptually was supposed to be a switch hitter, but in PFS nearly everyone charges into the fray rather than letting opponents come to you. Plus, like others have stated, most encounters are short range.

I would advise going all archer or all melee. If all melee, having a ranged weapon will suffice for the rare occasions range is involved. Though others have suggested versatility, I suggest optimizing one facet of combat and one skill. When you tell the party this is what I do, you want to be the best at that skill set.

Grand Lodge

Switch Hitting is not the best. That said, I have been toying with a Tengu Hunter switch hitter Idea.

You have a beak, which allows you to strike anyone who comes into your face, even while you still have the bow in hand.

You can get precise shot for free at 2nd, a must have for archers, considering the number of melee dudes running around.

Like I said, it is not the best, but it has possibility for great roleplay and still be good when combat strikes. Oh and a pet to ride or have run around tearing people apart.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If you are going switch hitter with a Ranger, you should probably focus your attributes the opposite of the branch you are taking your combat feats in. The combat feats don't require you have the prerequisite, so you can (for example) take Power Attack with a 12 or less strength or take the bow feats with a 12 or less dexterity.

Archer is a very strong build so I would go Archer combat style and good strength. Use your 2nd 2 PP to get a MW Darkwood Composite Longbow for your strength -- the first two went to a wand of CLW.


I like switch hitter for a different reason, because the table will change every mod.

If you're in a group with a lot of other melee types, you can act as the archer, targeting spellcasters, flying opponents, and the like.

If your group has a lot of glass cannons, like wizards, you can move to the front, and engage enemies in melee while they harass and damage opponents.

Silver Crusade

There is a general perception that Pathfinder Society games emphasize close-quarters encounters and that is generally correct. For all that, however, the last two PFS games I played really opened up the range (several encounters started as far away as you felt like shooting) and our small parties suffered for it. My magus in particular suffered for having decided that his ranged attack was going to be acid splash (range 30' at 2nd level). After we captured a few short bows, we were no longer completely outranged, but we would have been much better off if we actually had a competent archer. (We did have a crossbow focused investigator but he suffered from his player being pretty far on the left side of the bell curve).


archery feats plus power attack will get the job done.

Grand Lodge

Thanks guys.

I wanted to play an archer in my last 5e game. Maybe I'll just make one for PFS. Sounds powerful and fun.

I'll just need to determine if I'm better off as a Fighter or Ranger. I'm thinking Human Fighter is my best bet.


There is another option you may not know about, the Zen Archer Monk.

It's a monk that gets Flurry with a bow. They keep their monk bonuses to AC, they keep their increased unarmed damage, and they get most of the feats you'll want for archery as bonus feats.

They make very good switch hitters as they can keep both hands on their bow and still make unarmed attacks with their big beefy unarmed strikes. They also get to use their Wisdom on their bow attacks, so you can run the entire build off one main stat.

There is also the Qinggong Monk that you can stack onto the Zen Archer to dump the less useful abilities (like slow fall) and replace it with things like being able to cast True Strike and Barkskin.


There are two things to consider when relying on Point Blank Master instead of a switch hitter:

1) If you plan to play core, you can't use Point Blank Master.

2) You can't get it until at least 5th level (Fighter) or 6th level (ranger)*. Since your PFS career will top out at 12th level, you'll spend almost half your career waiting for the one feat that will let you use a bow in melee.

*You can get it at 3rd level as a Zen Archer Monk.

Grand Lodge

For thew bow's Strength modifier: Ultimate Equipment offers the Adaptive enhancement, 1,000 gp on a +1 or better bow, and it will always (other than in an anti-magic field) use the correct modifier for your current Strength.

Gwen points out, correctly, that Point Blank Master is not going to be available at lower levels, but, for a switch hitter, that isn't that big a deal.

I think there is a trait that gives a bonus to your first melee attack, if you hit with a ranged attack before that melee attack.

Depending on whether you are looking at Core or Standard, and the books you have available, the Fighter archetype, Lore Warden, from the PFS Field Guide, gives up medium and heavy armor proficiency in exchange for more skill points and all Int-based skills being class skills.


A Divine Tracker Ranger with the Air Blessing can shoot in Melee starting at lvl 4. (Saves a feat, needs a standard action to activate, limited uses per day.)

Zephyr's Gift (minor): At 1st level, you can touch any one ranged weapon and enhance it with the quality of air. For 1 minute, any attacks made with the weapon take no penalties due to range. In addition, making a ranged attack with this weapon doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity.

Silver Crusade

I checked the numbers on my Ranger build above and it doesn't come out looking too good against non-Favored-Enemy. Will see what can be done.


BartonOliver wrote:
stuff

I'm afraid you misremember Quick Draw. It changes drawing a weapon from move to free action. Some benefits come to mind:

You get more charging distance: normally your charge is your character's speed IF you need to draw your melee weapon durin it.
You get more full-attacks: Using rapid shot, iterative attacks and so forth require that you don't need to use a move actions to change weapons.
You were chatting with an NPC with all good intentions but things go south. Most GM's don't approve that your character had a weapon in her hands while trying to use Diplomacy. Quickdraw let's you have that precious full attack or extra distance to charge at him.
None in your party knows how to bypass that creature's DR? Just go through your golfbag (aka Efficient Quiver) until you hit that pesky critter with a correct damage type or special material. Comes to play when your BAB reaches +6 naturally.

Of course there is plenty other feats to use but this one is one of my favorites.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Does the "switch hitter" still work well (in Pathfinder Society)? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Advice