A revamp of the Pathfinder system


Homebrew and House Rules


This replaces the 6 attribute scores that have been the core of D&D from the beginning with something more generic. The biggest problem I have with it thus far is that Magic is a worse dump stat than charisma was, which will need to be looked into, after some sleep...

Attribute Scores
Attack
Defence
Vitality
Magic
Spirit

Races
Dwarves:
Replace the Dwarf's attribute bonus with the following: +2 Vitality, -2 Magic, +2 Spirit
Elves:
Replace the Elf's attribute bonus with the following: +2 Defence, -2 Vitality, +2 Magic
Gnomes:
Replace the Gnome's attribute bonus with the following: -2 Attack, +2 Vitality, +2 Magic
Gnome Magic (racial ability) is now Magic based.
Half Elves:
Replace the Half Elve's attribute bonus with the following: +2 to any one attribute
Half Orc:
Replace the Half Orc's attribute bonus with the following: +2 to any one attribute
Halfling:
Replace the Halfling's attribute bonus with the following: -2 Attack, +2 Defence, +2 Spirit
Human:
Replace the Human's attribute bonus with the following: +2 to any one attribute

Classes
*Barbarian
Class Skills: Add the following to the barbarian's list of class skills: Strength
SKill Points per level: 6
Rage is now vitality based
*Bard
Skill Points per level: 8
Bardic Music is now Magic based.
Bard Spellcasting is now Magic based.
*Cleric
Skill Points per level: 4
Channel Energy is now Spirit based.
Cleric Spellcasting is now Spirit based.
Cleric Domain Powers are now Spirit based.
*Druid
Skill Points per level: 6
Druid Spellcasting is now Spirit based.
Druid Domain Powers (if any) are now Spirit based.
*Fighter
Class Skills: Add the following to the fighter's list of class skills: Strength
Skill Points per level: 4
*Monk
Class Skills: Add the following to the monk's list of class skills: Strength
Skill Points per level: 6
Monk's now add their Spirit modifier to their AC.
Monk's Ki Pool is now Spirit based.
*Paladin
Class Skills: Add the following to the paladin's list of class skills: Strength
Skill Points per level: 4
Paladin's Smite Evil is now Spirit based.
Paladin's Lay on Hands is now Spirit based.
Paladin's Channel Energy is now Spirit based.
Paladin's Spellcasting is now Spirit based.
*Ranger
Class Skills: Add the following to the ranger's list of class skills: Strength
Skill Points per level: 4
Ranger's Hunter's Bond is now Spirit based.
Ranger's Spellcasting is now Spirit based.
Ranger's Master Hunter is now Spirit based.
*Rogue
Skill Points per level: 8
Rogue's Minor and Major Magic rogue talents are now Magic based.
Rogue's Master Strike is now Attack based.
*Sorcerer
Skill Points per level: 8
Sorcerer's Spellcasting is now Magic based.
Sorcerer's Bloodline abilities are now Magic based.
*Wizard
Skill Points per level: 6
Wizard's Spellcasting is now Magic based.
Wizard's Arcane School Powers are now Magic based.

Skills
Skills are no longer tied to an attribute score.
The following are new skills:
Strength
This skill replaces the strength attribute score for strength checks. It also determines your carrying capacity. Refer to table 7-4 and use your strength skill + 8 in place of your strength score.
Creature gain a bonus or penalty to their strength skill as follows: Fine -8, Diminutive -6, Tiny -4, Small -2, Large +2, Huge +4, Gargantuan +6, Colossal +8.

Feats
Agile Maneuvers: This feat is no longer used.
Augment Summoning: Now adds +4 Attack and Vitality.
Combat Expertise: This feat now requires Defense 13
Combat Reflexes: This feat allows you to make an additional number of attack of opportunities equal to your Defense modifier.
Deadly Aim: This feat now requires an Attack of 13
Dodge: This feat now requires a Defense of 13
Wind Stance: This feat now requires a Defense of 15
Lightning Stance: This feat now requires a Defense of 17
Deflect Arrows: This feat now requires a Defense of 13
Snatch Arrows: This feat now requires a Defense of 15
Improved Grapple: This feat now requires a Attack of 13
Stunning Fist:This feat now requires a Attack of 13 and a Spirit of 13
Natural Spell: This feat now requires a Spirit of 13
Nimble Moves: This feat now requires an Acrobatics of 1 rank
Acrobatic Steps: This feat now requires an Acrobatics of 2 ranks
Improved Precise Shot: This feat now requires a Attack of 19
Shot on the Run: This feat now requires a Attack of 13
Rapid Shot: This feat now requires a Attack of 13
Many Shot: This feat now requires a Attack of 17
Power Attack: This feat now requires a Attack of 13
Selective Channeling: This feat now requires a Spirit of 13
Two Weapon Fighting: This feat now requires a Attack of 13
Improved Two Weapon Fighting: This feat now requires a Attack of 15
Greater: Two Weapon Fighting: This feat now requires a Attack of 17

Combat
Melee attacks: base attack+Attack modifier+size modifier
Ranged attacks: base attack+Attack modifier+size modifier+range penalty
Armor Class: 10+Armor Bonus+shield Bonus+Defense Bonus+other modifiers
CMB: Base attack bonus + Attack modifier + special size modifier
CMD: 10 + Base attack bonus + Attack modifier + Defense modifier + special size modifier
Fortitude Save: d20+Base Fortitude Save+Vitality Modifier
Reflex Save: d20+Base Reflex Save+Defense Modifier
Will save: d20+Base Will Save+Spirit Modifier


Okay, but why?


This can help solve the "useless charisma" problem. People can roleplay their character as they see fit. It will be much easier to find a new use for magic than charima. It can also help avoid stat dumping in general. Your attribute scores define more abstract concepts, instead of personality or physical concepts. A character with a high attack can be muscular (with ranks in the strength skill) or slender.


I think this looks very interesting. A problem I can see occurring is that first level characters won't be able to carry... much of anything. High level characters. I guess you start with the carrying capacity of STR 12 if it's a class skill?

Removing the attribute bonus to skills can have pretty far-reaching consequences. I'm apprehensive about that, I have to say. I worry a bit about balance.

Grand Lodge

Kierato wrote:
This can help solve the "useless charisma" problem. People can roleplay their character as they see fit. It will be much easier to find a new use for magic than charima. It can also help avoid stat dumping in general. Your attribute scores define more abstract concepts, instead of personality or physical concepts. A character with a high attack can be muscular (with ranks in the strength skill) or slender.

Charisma is only useless in the hands of those who don't know how to use it, in the hands of the skilled, it is the single most powerful stat in the game.

Every character has to suck at something and every system has a form of stat dumping, it brings a degree of flavor to the character. Giving the players more points, or pre-generated arrays, are ways to prevent stat dumping. If a character is good at everything, they are boring, let them suck at one thing, or give them enough points so they don't have to.


Kierato wrote:
This can help solve the "useless charisma" problem. People can roleplay their character as they see fit. It will be much easier to find a new use for magic than charima. It can also help avoid stat dumping in general. Your attribute scores define more abstract concepts, instead of personality or physical concepts. A character with a high attack can be muscular (with ranks in the strength skill) or slender.

I really do think this just changes the problem, not fixes it. As it is, melee types have even less reason to take Spirit or Magic than they do Charisma.

If you want to make Charisma useful, then use it more often. Have charisma checks for a lot of things, have NPCs not interact with low charisma people. Have shopkeepers raise the price of items since they seem like an easy swindle.

This is like tearing down the house to fix a leak. :)


OK I am now awake and will go into my new system a bit more.
Removing the attribute bonuses to skills is nothing to worry about. The skill DC's should probably be lowered by a few points, 3-5 (play testing can help determine how much). I am thinking of increasing the strength skill to strength skill + 10 in place of your strength score, which means that you have at least a light load of 33 lb.s, 38 lb.s with one rank, and 58 lb.s with strength as a class skill. This will be equivalent to a 14 strength, and when you consider armor doesn't count against carrying capacity, it could work. You may have to distribute who carries what a little at lower levels, but still not bad.
If you make players with low charisma role play when they don't want to (especially enough to make a low charisma a true penalty) they will just feel that you are picking on them. When you try to force non roleplayers to roleplay, it can bog down the game and make it less fun for everyone. This system doesn't abolish stat dumping (though I hope to curb it some).

I am thinking of tying Spirit to resurrection (perhaps in a way similar to how con was in 1e), and Magic to magic items. This would make these skills much more useful. There are easily a half dozen long threads on how to make charima more useful mechanically, in the end, it may just be easier to do away with it, which is what I am experimenting with now.

Please keep an open mind and help me in the days to come. I will post more today.


Surviving resurrection/raise dead/reincarnate: When you are attempting to bring a character back from the dead using one of these spells, or their equivalent, the deceased character must make a spirit check, DC 10. Failure by less than 5 means that the spell failed but can be tried again. Failure by 5 or more means the character cannot be resurrected by mortal magic (although the GM can allow for a special adventure to reclaim the character's soul and allow them to resurrect). True Resurrection, Miracle, or wish does not suffer the chance to fail the resurrection.

As for tying magic items to the Magic stat, what do you think of the idea of getting rid of Use Magic Device and make it a Magic check? Other thoughts to come.


I see a problem with skill points. By removing Int all classes are locked in at their fixed skill points per level. This makes skill starved classes more skill starved. This is especially bad since the new strength skill you added is a "must have" skill for many classes, especially since it determines carrying capacity.

One more thing I just thought of from Int that you didn't cover - bonus languages. If these go away, that is another drain on skill points.

The question you will have to ask when dealing with this is "do you want skills to be fixed based on class only, or vary based on an attribute of individual characters?". If the first, then you will simply need to increase the number of skill points classes get. If the latter, you will have to either tie bonus skill points to one of the attributes or add another to tie it to.

Other than the skill point issue, I like the direction you've taken with Magic and Spirit replacing the 3 mental stats. I've considered something along those lines, but wasn't satisfied with how everything fit together. I'll be watching this thread to see if it can add anything to my notes.

As for getting rid of UMD and making it a Magic attribute check, I can see this working. (You may want to to review the DCs)

BTW - You missed Weapon Finesse in your feats list, and I beleive it's safe to say that this feat is gone in your system.

As for Magic becoming a dump stat, I see no problem with this. Either you are a caster who utilizes the stat or a non-caster who does not. There is no non-mechanic aspect to it, unlike Cha which was heavily tied to appearance and role playing. Considering that spell casting is a really big advantage, I see the cost of investing in that stat at the cost of others as a good balancing mechanic.


Freesword wrote:

I see a problem with skill points. By removing Int all classes are locked in at their fixed skill points per level. This makes skill starved classes more skill starved. This is especially bad since the new strength skill you added is a "must have" skill for many classes, especially since it determines carrying capacity.

One more thing I just thought of from Int that you didn't cover - bonus languages. If these go away, that is another drain on skill points.

The question you will have to ask when dealing with this is "do you want skills to be fixed based on class only, or vary based on an attribute of individual characters?". If the first, then you will simply need to increase the number of skill points classes get. If the latter, you will have to either tie bonus skill points to one of the attributes or add another to tie it to.

Other than the skill point issue, I like the direction you've taken with Magic and Spirit replacing the 3 mental stats. I've considered something along those lines, but wasn't satisfied with how everything fit together. I'll be watching this thread to see if it can add anything to my notes.

As for getting rid of UMD and making it a Magic attribute check, I can see this working. (You may want to to review the DCs)

BTW - You missed Weapon Finesse in your feats list, and I beleive it's safe to say that this feat is gone in your system.

As for Magic becoming a dump stat, I see no problem with this. Either you are a caster who utilizes the stat or a non-caster who does not. There is no non-mechanic aspect to it, unlike Cha which was heavily tied to appearance and role playing. Considering that spell casting is a really big advantage, I see the cost of investing in that stat at the cost of others as a good balancing mechanic.

I have increased the base skill points of all classes by 2, the wizard was increased by 4. I was thinking about a feat that gave you +1 skill point per level, or having skill points scale with level (gain an additional 1 point per level at 11th level or something).

Good catch on the languages.

I caught the weapon finesse omission after I put it up, it has been removed and when I repost, it will be noted.

The DC's for UMD will be altered if I go that route.

You may have a point about dump stats being less of a problem...


Looking over it again I spotted 2 other omission.

I'm guessing that Defense replaces Dex for Initiative.
I'm also guessing that Con Bonus HP are now Vitality Bonus HP.

Everything else looks pretty well in hand.

Of course the big things that haven't been mentioned yet are magic and effects that alter stats.

Mostly it's a lot of replace Str with Attack, Dex with Defense, Con with Vitality, and Wis with Spirit. Int, Cha and Magic look to be a little less straight forward.

One other change I see being made to Barbarians is this line:

PRD wrote:
While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.

being replaced with a specific list of skills the Barbarian cannot use while in rage.


Freesword wrote:

Looking over it again I spotted 2 other omission.

I'm guessing that Defense replaces Dex for Initiative.
I'm also guessing that Con Bonus HP are now Vitality Bonus HP.

Everything else looks pretty well in hand.

Of course the big things that haven't been mentioned yet are magic and effects that alter stats.

Mostly it's a lot of replace Str with Attack, Dex with Defense, Con with Vitality, and Wis with Spirit. Int, Cha and Magic look to be a little less straight forward.

One other change I see being made to Barbarians is this line:

PRD wrote:
While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.
being replaced with a specific list of skills the Barbarian cannot use while in rage.

I am not sure about Defense replacing Dexterity for initiative, I was almost considering Spirit.

Vitality does replace con for HP.
I am working on making the updates for magic effects that alter stats right now.


My advice would be to adhere to as close to an existing game's attributes as possible. If Pathfinder is your base, just stick to Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha.

You can design your own homebrew easier that way.

If you find Cha to be a constant dump stat to the point of being pointless, I'd recommend redefining it to make it a more relevant attribute in your games. That or just get rid of it completely and just have the other 5 stats. So:

Strength
Agility (Dex)
Health (Con)
Intelligence
Spirit (Wis)

You could also look at Myth & Magic. It's a 2e-based game you can download for free at newhavengames.com

Attributes are quite relevant in that system, because the bonus you have from them impacts your results moreso than the skill points you'd be putting into them.


Kierato wrote:
Freesword wrote:
I'm guessing that Defense replaces Dex for Initiative.
I am not sure about Defense replacing Dexterity for initiative, I was almost considering Spirit.

I guessed Defense because I see Initiative as reaction speed.

Spirit could work if you are going for more of a "sixth sense" feel.


Attribute Scores
Attack
Defence
Vitality
Magic
Spirit

Surviving resurrection/raise dead/reincarnate: When you are attempting to bring a character back from the dead using one of these spells, or their equivalent, the deceased character must make a spirit check, DC 10. Failure by less than 5 means that the spell failed but can be tried again. Failure by 5 or more means the character cannot be resurrected by mortal magic (although the GM can allow for a special adventure to reclaim the character's soul and allow them to ressurect). True Resurrection, Miracle, or wish does not suffer the chance to fail the resurrection.

Point Buy
Low fantasy: 5
Standard Fantasy: 10
High Fantasy: 15
Epic Fantasy: 20

Races
Dwarves:
Replace the Dwarf's attribute bonus with the following: +2 Vitality, -2 Magic, +2 Spirit
Elves:
Replace the Elf's attribute bonus with the following: +2 Defence, -2 Vitality, +2 Magic
Gnomes:
Replace the Gnome's attribute bonus with the following: -2 Attack, +2 Vitality, +2 Magic
Gnome Magic (racial ability) is now Magic based.
Half Elves:
Replace the Half Elve's attribute bonus with the following: +2 to any one attribute
Half Orc:
Replace the Half Orc's attribute bonus with the following: +2 to any one attribute
Halfling:
Replace the Halfling's attribute bonus with the following: -2 Attack, +2 Defence, +2 Spirit
Human:
Replace the Human's attribute bonus with the following: +2 to any one attribute

Classes
*Barbarian
Class Skills: Add the following to the barbarian's list of class skills: Strength
SKill Points per level: 6
Rage is now vitality based
*Bard
Skill Points per level: 8
Bardic Music is now Magic based.
Bard Spellcasting is now Magic based.
*Cleric
Skill Points per level: 4
Channel Energy is now Spirit based.
Cleric Spellcasting is now Spirit based.
Cleric Domain Powers are now Spirit based.
*Druid
Skill Points per level: 6
Druid Spellcasting is now Spirit based.
Druid Domain Powers (if any) are now Spirit based.
*Fighter
Class Skills: Add the following to the fighter's list of class skills: Strength
Skill Points per level: 4
*Monk
Class Skills: Add the following to the monk's list of class skills: Strength
Skill Points per level: 6
Monk's now add their Spirit modifier to their AC.
Monk's Ki Pool is now Spirit based.
*Paladin
Class Skills: Add the following to the paladin's list of class skills: Strength
Skill Points per level: 4
Paladin's Smite Evil is now Spirit based.
Paladin's Lay on Hands is now Spirit based.
Paladin's Channel Energy is now Spirit based.
Paladin's Spellcasting is now Spirit based.
*Ranger
Class Skills: Add the following to the ranger's list of class skills: Strength
Skill Points per level: 4
Ranger's Hunter's Bond is now Spirit based.
Ranger's Spellcasting is now Spirit based.
Ranger's Master Hunter is now Spirit based.
*Rogue
Skill Points per level: 8
Rogue's Minor and Major Magic rogue talents are now Magic based.
Rogue's Master Strike is now Attack based.
*Sorcerer
Skill Points per level: 8
Sorcerer's Spellcasting is now Magic based.
Sorcerer's Bloodline abilities are now Magic based.
*Wizard
Skill Points per level: 6
Wizard's Spellcasting is now Magic based.
Wizard's Arcane School Powers are now Magic based.

Skills
Skills are no longer tied to an attribute score.
The following are new skills:
Strength
This skill replaces the strength attribute score for strength checks. It also determines your carrying capacity. Refer to table 7-4 and use your strength skill + 8 in place of your strength score.
Creature gain a bonus or penalty to their strength skill as follows: Fine -8, Diminutive -6, Tiny -4, Small -2, Large +2, Huge +4, Gargantuan +6, Colossal +8.

Use Magic Device
This is no longer a skill, but rather a feature of the magic stat. To use a magic item, make a Magic check and compare it to the table below.
Activate Blindly: DC 20
Decipher a Written Spell: DC 20+spell level
Use a Scroll: DC 15+caster level
Use a Wand: DC 15
Emulate a Class Feature: DC 15
Emulate an Ability Score: DC score=check-10
Emulate a Race: DC 20
Emulate an Alignment: DC 25

Feats
Agile Maneuvers: This feat is no longer used.
Augment Summoning: Now adds +4 Attack and Vitality.
Combat Expertise: This feat now requires Defense 13
Combat Reflexes: This feat allows you to make an additional number of attack of opportunities equal to your Defense modifier.
Deadly Aim: This feat now requires an Attack of 13
Dodge: This feat now requires a Defense of 13
Wind Stance: This feat now requires a Defense of 15
Lightning Stance: This feat now requires a Defense of 17
Deflect Arrows: This feat now requires a Defense of 13
Snatch Arrows: This feat now requires a Defense of 15
Improved Grapple: This feat now requires a Attack of 13
Stunning Fist:This feat now requires a Attack of 13 and a Spirit of 13
Natural Spell: This feat now requires a Spirit of 13
Nimble Moves: This feat now requires an Acrobatics of 1 rank
Acrobatic Steps: This feat now requires an Acrobatics of 2 ranks
Improved Precise Shot: This feat now requires a Attack of 19
Shot on the Run: This feat now requires a Attack of 13
Rapid Shot: This feat now requires a Attack of 13
Many Shot: This feat now requires a Attack of 17
Power Attack: This feat now requires a Attack of 13
Selective Channeling: This feat now requires a Spirit of 13
Two Weapon Fighting: This feat now requires a Attack of 13
Improved Two Weapon Fighting: This feat now requires a Attack of 15
Greater: Two Weapon Fighting: This feat now requires a Attack of 17
Weapon Finesse: This feat is no longer used.

Traits
Social:
Multi-Lingal: You gain 2 bonus languages which must be chosen from your race's list of bonus languages.

Combat
Your vitality modifier is added to your HP instead of Constitution
Your Initiative is the average of your Spirit modifier and Defense modifier.
Melee attacks: base attack+Attack modifier+size modifier
Ranged attacks: base attack+Attack modifier+size modifier+range penalty
Armor Class: 10+Armor Bonus+shield Bonus+Defense Bonus+other modifiers
CMB: Base attack bonus + Attack modifier + special size modifier
CMD: 10 + Base attack bonus + Attack modifier + Defense modifier + special size modifier
Fortitude Save: d20+Base Fortitude Save+Vitality Modifier
Reflex Save: d20+Base Reflex Save+Defense Modifier
Will save: d20+Base Will Save+Spirit Modifier

Spells
Bull's Strength adds to Attack
Cat's Grace adds to Defence
Bear's Endurance adds to Vitality
Owl's Wisdom adds to Spirit
Fox's Cunning adds to Magic


I thought of another reason why you may be leaning toward Spirit for Initiative. Dex was a near super-stat. You've already shifted ranged attacks over to attack, and moving Initiative to Spirit would break it up even more.

Also thought of another thing that will need to changed - Undead. Currently their HP and abilities are keyed off of Cha. I'd be inclined to change them to Spirit.

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