[Ultimate magic] Wjtch and Twin soul. Doubts.


Rules Questions


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This refers to the Witch-bounded archetype twin soul ability.

While I am excited about using this, I am a little unclear on how it actually triggers. For the purposes of this ability, what would "gravely injured or about to die" be (rule wise)?

Furthermore, what kind of action you spend to activate it? None? Standard?

Help please.


Also,

since there isn't a receptacle to the magic jar effect, what happens to the original owner? Does he die? Does he have to be dead already? Does he go to the familiar?

If you choose to return to your body, does it need to be alive? Or just intact?


These are just my interpretations.

Beast-bonded Witch: Twin Soul:

Twin Soul (Su): At 10th-level, if the witch or her familiar is gravely injured or about to die, the soul of the dying one immediately transfers to the other’s body. The two souls share the surviving body peaceably, can communicate freely, and both retain their ability to think and reason. The host may allow the guest soul to take over the body temporarily or reclaim it as a move action. They can persist in this state indefinitely, or the guest can return to its own body (if available) by touch, transfer into a suitable vessel (such as a clone), or take over another body as if using magic jar (with no receptacle). This replaces the witch’s major hex at 10th-level.

Ral' Yareth wrote:
For the purposes of this ability, what would "gravely injured or about to die" be (rule wise)?

I would say it's the Dying condition. Negative hit points and not yet stabilized.

Ral' Yareth wrote:
Furthermore, what kind of action you spend to activate it? None? Standard?

It has to be none, since you can take no action while dying/unconscious.

Ral' Yareth wrote:
since there isn't a receptacle to the magic jar effect, what happens to the original owner? Does he die?

I assume it dies. From Magic Jar: "Any life force with nowhere to go is treated as slain."

Ral' Yareth wrote:
If you choose to return to your body, does it need to be alive? Or just intact?

It doesn't specify, so I would say either way. If it's dead, you're dead, though, so it's probably best to get it fixed up first. (Unless you really can't stand existing inside your pig)


Grick wrote:

These are just my interpretations.

** spoiler omitted **

Ral' Yareth wrote:
For the purposes of this ability, what would "gravely injured or about to die" be (rule wise)?

I would say it's the Dying condition. Negative hit points and not yet stabilized.

Ral' Yareth wrote:
Furthermore, what kind of action you spend to activate it? None? Standard?

It has to be none, since you can take no action while dying/unconscious.

Ral' Yareth wrote:
since there isn't a receptacle to the magic jar effect, what happens to the original owner? Does he die?

I assume it dies. From Magic Jar: "Any life force with nowhere to go is treated as slain."

Ral' Yareth wrote:
If you choose to return to your body, does it need to be alive? Or just intact?

It doesn't specify, so I would say either way. If it's dead, you're dead, though, so it's probably best to get it fixed up first. (Unless you really can't stand existing inside your pig)

Thanks for replying.

I like your interpretation in general, but if the magic jar-like effect
kills the original owner of the body, isn't that too powerful? It will pretty much give the witch a at will death attack. Don't get me wrong, what you are proposing makes a lot of sense in regards to RAW. I'm just concerned with what kind of impact that will cause in the game (if it will be game-breaking and etc).

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Ral' Yareth wrote:

I like your interpretation in general, but if the magic jar-like effect

kills the original owner of the body, isn't that too powerful? It will pretty much give the witch a at will death attack. Don't get me wrong, what you are proposing makes a lot of sense in regards to RAW. I'm just concerned with what kind of impact that will cause in the game (if it will be game-breaking and etc).

My two C-bills...

It's not really an 'at will death attack' Unless the witch plans to be running around in her familiar's body, or killing her familiar to get the soul in her. (Neither seem to be a good idea).

Also, if the displaced soul dies (since there's no 'jar') then the 'rider' in the possessed body would possibly die if something forces her out.

Magic Jar, Pathfinder RPG, pg 309 wrote:
If the host body is slain, you return to the magic jar, if within range, and the life force of the host departs (it is dead). If the host body is slain beyond the range of the spell, both you and the host die. Any life force with nowhere to go is treated as slain.


Grick wrote:


Ral' Yareth wrote:
If you choose to return to your body, does it need to be alive? Or just intact?

It doesn't specify, so I would say either way. If it's dead, you're dead, though, so it's probably best to get it fixed up first. (Unless you really can't stand existing inside your pig)

Which is great. As long as your body isn't disintegrated, a Witch with a surviving familiar would never need a resurrection spell or suffer the ill effects thereof. You don't have to call your soul back; you just need the receptacle repaired.


I like your combined explanations. Makes it an interesting ability, but risky to use (and abuse).

Thank you three.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Ral' Yareth wrote:

I like your combined explanations. Makes it an interesting ability, but risky to use (and abuse).

Thank you three.

In 3.x, there's a psionic power True Mind Switch. You suffered XP loss if the previous body you were in died. It was a suggested evil guy get away, that if he sees he's going to die, he mind switches into some local fauna, and runs away until he can jump into someone else. He takes the level loss from his 'old body' being adventurer bait, but is still alive. A few jumps later and he's back in a humanoid body plotting revenge.

Our metaphorical witch could do something similar if she was in the mood to try.

Initiate Twin Soul on herself. Use poison, then slow poison. Now the witch is 'dying' but not dead.

Familiar goes and finds appropriate 'host' body. Witch takes over. For additional fun, heal your original body (or a new body in stasis), Magic Jar "Leaves body lifeless", and keep it close at hand.

so the evil queen ditched her original body years/decades ago, and uses this trick on youg nubile maidens. Party 'kills' the witch (in her 'borrowed' body), and the familiar for good measure. Witch jumps into body of previous victim, dressed in peseant clothes and walks away. :-)

Dark Archive

Nastier uses do present themselves however.

This one will take some time but should be worth it.
Start a few animal breeding programs to get a few highly specialized animal breeds, like what we do for dogs (greyhounds for speed, mastiffs for size/strength, etc). With a degree of patience and controlled breeding this should create a suitable number of low will but HIGH physical stat bodies ready for use with next to no complaints from authorities or meddling heroes/villains. When needed use Anthropomorphic Animal to sculpt them into humanoid shape when desired.
Next have the witch murder her familiar and twin soul to move it to one of these new bodies, then murder herself and move to another.

From this point on they are technically immortal and un-killable (anytime one of them "DIES" it can switch back to the other and steps to a new body with the physical traits best suited for that specific encounter or try to take over whatever is trying to kill it and add it to the breeding program).

Then take levels in Eldritch Knight.
Can you imagine what a twinked out combatant you'd get with a Fighter/Caster with at least 20 in all physical stats + Int(before magic items/tomes/etc), full spellcasting + Immortality (and all the age benefits but no penalties) + Word of Recall at will to wherever the Familiar is?
Throw on a hat of disguise or the disguise Hex (you are an animal but also a humanoid) and be as social as you want.

You don't need to kidnap anyone for new bodies and the ones you get are better than any human form and less likely to be able to resist you. You have a built in source of income (sell off your surplus livestock for a profit) and as many cheap, powerful, disposable guards as you want.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

Nastier uses do present themselves however.

This one will take some time but should be worth it.
Start a few animal breeding programs to get a few highly specialized animal breeds, like what we do for dogs (greyhounds for speed, mastiffs for size/strength, etc). With a degree of patience and controlled breeding this should create a suitable number of low will but HIGH physical stat bodies ready for use with next to no complaints from authorities or meddling heroes/villains. When needed use Anthropomorphic Animal to sculpt them into humanoid shape when desired.
Next have the witch murder her familiar and twin soul to move it to one of these new bodies, then murder herself and move to another.

From this point on they are technically immortal and un-killable (anytime one of them "DIES" it can switch back to the other and steps to a new body with the physical traits best suited for that specific encounter or try to take over whatever is trying to kill it and add it to the breeding program).

Then take levels in Eldritch Knight.
Can you imagine what a twinked out combatant you'd get with a Fighter/Caster with at least 20 in all physical stats + Int(before magic items/tomes/etc), full spellcasting + Immortality (and all the age benefits but no penalties) + Word of Recall at will to wherever the Familiar is?
Throw on a hat of disguise or the disguise Hex (you are an animal but also a humanoid) and be as social as you want.

You don't need to kidnap anyone for new bodies and the ones you get are better than any human form and less likely to be able to resist you. You have a built in source of income (sell off your surplus livestock for a profit) and as many cheap, powerful, disposable guards as you want.

How would you move the familiar's soul to another body (other than yours)? My understanding was that you could move into the familiar's body and the familiar could move into your body (when you/it are/is about to die). Am I missing something?


Quote:

How would you move the familiar's soul to another body (other than yours)?

My understanding was that you could move into the familiar's body and the familiar could move into your body (when you/it are/is about to die).
Am I missing something?
Perhaps this part:
Quote:

They can persist in this state indefinitely, or the guest can return to its own body (if available) by touch, transfer into a suitable vessel (such as a clone),

or take over another body as if using magic jar (with no receptacle).

Personally, I think simply removing (via Errata) the `no-SR, auto-scaling DC (Su) Magic Jar` would result in a powerful but semi-plausibly balanced ability.

Twin Soul should involve you/your Familiar`s souls co-habitating bodies, not EVERY body you can grab to join the Uber-Magic Jar party.

There´s also some other issues/clarifications for Twin Soul that I and others brought up in another thread.


Quandary wrote:
Quote:

How would you move the familiar's soul to another body (other than yours)?

My understanding was that you could move into the familiar's body and the familiar could move into your body (when you/it are/is about to die).
Am I missing something?
Perhaps this part:
Quote:

They can persist in this state indefinitely, or the guest can return to its own body (if available) by touch, transfer into a suitable vessel (such as a clone),

or take over another body as if using magic jar (with no receptacle).

Personally, I think simply removing (via Errata) the `no-SR, auto-scaling DC (Su) Magic Jar` would result in a powerful but semi-plausibly balanced ability.

Twin Soul should involve you/your Familiar`s souls co-habitating bodies, not EVERY body you can grab to join the Uber-Magic Jar party.

There´s also some other issues/clarifications for Twin Soul that I and others brought up in another thread.

I actually think the scaling DC is fair, since (according to the way we are interpreting this) this is a very risky ability. As someone else pointed it out, if the witch was forced out of the body by spells, she would pretty much die.

The way I see it, this is a very situational ability, that needs a fair chance of working to be worth taking it (otherwise why lose a major hex)?


Well, I don`t know about your `very risky ability` interpretation, namely because I don`t see why the following doesn´t continue to apply at all times:

Quote:
Twin Soul (Su): At 10th-level, if the witch or her familiar is gravely injured or about to die, the soul of the dying one immediately transfers to the other’s body.

I`m not sure what spell you´re talking about in the first place... Magic Jar would seem to put you in the other caster`s Magic Jar container, no different than normal. Dispel/Injunction doesn`t apply because this is Su, and since there isn`t any duration, I don`t think there is any `ongoing` (Su) force/effect that an Anti-Magic Field would effect (only the `transfers` themselves are Su events) - in any event an AMF would also similarly disrupt normal Magic Jar.

Anyhow, I suggest checking out the other thread, it should pop up in a search, there are other `undefined` aspects, which could use Errata`ing (and thus, could use people hitting the FAQ button). I don`t think people even fully enumerated all the vagaries this brings up, enough to say that there`s a bunch.


Quandary wrote:
Well, I don`t know about your `very risky ability` interpretation, namely because I don`t see why the following doesn´t continue to apply at all times:
Quote:
Twin Soul (Su): At 10th-level, if the witch or her familiar is gravely injured or about to die, the soul of the dying one immediately transfers to the other’s body.

I`m not sure what spell you´re talking about in the first place... Magic Jar would seem to put you in the other caster`s Magic Jar container, no different than normal. Dispel/Injunction doesn`t apply because this is Su, and since there isn`t any duration, I don`t think there is any `ongoing` (Su) force/effect that an Anti-Magic Field would effect (only the `transfers` themselves are Su events) - in any event an AMF would also similarly disrupt normal Magic Jar.

Anyhow, I suggest checking out the other thread, it should pop up in a search, there are other `undefined` aspects, which could use Errata`ing (and thus, could use people hitting the FAQ button). I don`t think people even fully enumerated all the vagaries this brings up, enough to say that there`s a bunch.

From the top of my mind: protection from evil(core; temporary relief), magic circle against evil (longer temporary relief) and cast out (apg, could potentially kill the witch depending on your interpretation - does she go back to the familiar's body or does she die because she doesn't have a receptacle?).

If one is willing to use 3.5 material this list expands a lot.

Edit: But yeah, other than that I agree with you, this ability needs further clarification.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

What come to mind of the body jumping trick is at least one of you (witch/familar) has to be in its real body. Nothing there on rereading seems to indicate the possessed body ever becomes truly 'yours' So to use my evil queen example (behind the spoiler)

Spoiler:

  • Evil queen slits wrists, shares souls with familiar.
  • Attendents bind wounds.
  • Familiar goes out for a spin. Finds a body of new young damsel, witch magic jars her, killing damsel and gives her a new body to tool around in.

  • Now here's the rub. If the familiar is subsequently killed, does it end the effect (they both die) does it shut just the familiar to the witch's body, or does it shunt both souls to the witch's body, and she now has a souless husk she has to go *repossess*.

    Dark Archive

    Ral' Yareth wrote:
    Quandary wrote:
    Well, I don`t know about your `very risky ability` interpretation, namely because I don`t see why the following doesn´t continue to apply at all times:
    Quote:
    Twin Soul (Su): At 10th-level, if the witch or her familiar is gravely injured or about to die, the soul of the dying one immediately transfers to the other’s body.

    I`m not sure what spell you´re talking about in the first place... Magic Jar would seem to put you in the other caster`s Magic Jar container, no different than normal. Dispel/Injunction doesn`t apply because this is Su, and since there isn`t any duration, I don`t think there is any `ongoing` (Su) force/effect that an Anti-Magic Field would effect (only the `transfers` themselves are Su events) - in any event an AMF would also similarly disrupt normal Magic Jar.

    Anyhow, I suggest checking out the other thread, it should pop up in a search, there are other `undefined` aspects, which could use Errata`ing (and thus, could use people hitting the FAQ button). I don`t think people even fully enumerated all the vagaries this brings up, enough to say that there`s a bunch.

    From the top of my mind: protection from evil(core; temporary relief), magic circle against evil (longer temporary relief) and cast out (apg, could potentially kill the witch depending on your interpretation - does she go back to the familiar's body or does she die because she doesn't have a receptacle?).

    If one is willing to use 3.5 material this list expands a lot.

    Edit: But yeah, other than that I agree with you, this ability needs further clarification.

    Worst case scenario with all of those spells is the witch is kicked out of whatever body they're in and bounce back to whatever body the familiar is in at that time.

    There is no duration or range on it and the only restriction is one of them needs to be gravely injured or about to do.
    You can freely leapfrog from body after body with the strongest Magic Jar in the game. Bypasses spell resistance and has a DC in the 20's or higher to resist.

    I used to hate this archetype but it's by far the strongest possibility for a Gish or villain in the game.


    Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
    Ral' Yareth wrote:
    Quandary wrote:
    Well, I don`t know about your `very risky ability` interpretation, namely because I don`t see why the following doesn´t continue to apply at all times:
    Quote:
    Twin Soul (Su): At 10th-level, if the witch or her familiar is gravely injured or about to die, the soul of the dying one immediately transfers to the other’s body.

    I`m not sure what spell you´re talking about in the first place... Magic Jar would seem to put you in the other caster`s Magic Jar container, no different than normal. Dispel/Injunction doesn`t apply because this is Su, and since there isn`t any duration, I don`t think there is any `ongoing` (Su) force/effect that an Anti-Magic Field would effect (only the `transfers` themselves are Su events) - in any event an AMF would also similarly disrupt normal Magic Jar.

    Anyhow, I suggest checking out the other thread, it should pop up in a search, there are other `undefined` aspects, which could use Errata`ing (and thus, could use people hitting the FAQ button). I don`t think people even fully enumerated all the vagaries this brings up, enough to say that there`s a bunch.

    From the top of my mind: protection from evil(core; temporary relief), magic circle against evil (longer temporary relief) and cast out (apg, could potentially kill the witch depending on your interpretation - does she go back to the familiar's body or does she die because she doesn't have a receptacle?).

    If one is willing to use 3.5 material this list expands a lot.

    Edit: But yeah, other than that I agree with you, this ability needs further clarification.

    Worst case scenario with all of those spells is the witch is kicked out of whatever body they're in and bounce back to whatever body the familiar is in at that time.

    There is no duration or range on it and the only restriction is one of them needs to be gravely injured or about to do.
    You can freely leapfrog from body after body with the strongest Magic Jar in the game. Bypasses spell resistance...

    "Worst case scenario with all of those spells is the witch is kicked out of whatever body they're in and bounce back to whatever body the familiar is in at that time."

    Assuming the "other's body" part in the power description means: any body they happen to be in at the moment (as opposed to their actual body).

    Dark Archive

    1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Matthew Morris wrote:

    What come to mind of the body jumping trick is at least one of you (witch/familar) has to be in its real body. Nothing there on rereading seems to indicate the possessed body ever becomes truly 'yours' So to use my evil queen example (behind the spoiler)

    ** spoiler omitted **
    Now here's the rub. If the familiar is subsequently killed, does it end the effect (they both die) does it shut just the familiar to the witch's body, or does it shunt both souls to the witch's body, and she now has a souless husk she has to go *repossess*.

    Re-read the Hex it works better than that.

    At 10th-level, if the witch or her familiar is gravely injured or about to die, the soul of the dying one immediately transfers to the other’s body. The two souls share the surviving body peaceably, can communicate freely, and both retain their ability to think and reason. The host may allow the guest soul to take over the body temporarily or reclaim it as a move action. They can persist in this state indefinitely, or the guest can return to its own body (if available) by touch, transfer into a suitable vessel (such as a clone), or take over another body as if using magic jar (with no receptacle)

    The way it works AFAIK is:
    Witch kills familiar and it's soul jumps into the witches body.
    Familiar then Magic Jar's into a new body.
    Witch kills herself and joins the familiar in it's new body.
    Witch takes over a new body.

    Now if either the witch or the familiar's current body dies they jump back to wherever the other currently is.


    Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
    Matthew Morris wrote:

    What come to mind of the body jumping trick is at least one of you (witch/familar) has to be in its real body. Nothing there on rereading seems to indicate the possessed body ever becomes truly 'yours' So to use my evil queen example (behind the spoiler)

    ** spoiler omitted **
    Now here's the rub. If the familiar is subsequently killed, does it end the effect (they both die) does it shut just the familiar to the witch's body, or does it shunt both souls to the witch's body, and she now has a souless husk she has to go *repossess*.

    Re-read the Hex it works better than that.

    At 10th-level, if the witch or her familiar is gravely injured or about to die, the soul of the dying one immediately transfers to the other’s body. The two souls share the surviving body peaceably, can communicate freely, and both retain their ability to think and reason. The host may allow the guest soul to take over the body temporarily or reclaim it as a move action. They can persist in this state indefinitely, or the guest can return to its own body (if available) by touch, transfer into a suitable vessel (such as a clone), or take over another body as if using magic jar (with no receptacle)

    The way it works AFAIK is:
    Witch kills familiar and it's soul jumps into the witches body.
    Familiar then Magic Jar's into a new body.
    Witch kills herself and joins the familiar in it's new body.
    Witch takes over a new body.

    Now if either the witch or the familiar's current body dies they jump back to wherever the other currently is.

    While I can't refute that, at the same time I'm not sure this is RAI.

    As I said above, maybe the "other's body" part was supposed to meant your original body. Fact is, untill we get an errata, we won't know for sure.

    Edit: don't get me wrong. Maybe you are right, but we can't know for sure since the description is very vague.

    Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

    Well I'd hope it's the original body. True Mind Switch (which I'm using as a basis for powe level) was a Telepath 9 power that no matter how many times you jumped you were still limited to negative effects if the previous body was killed. (So stashing it in a demiplane, or petrifying it or something so it couldn't be easily killed was a good idea). And if it got killed you gained a negative level.

    I read it as you can transfer to a clone and have it be your new permanent body, but if you transfer to another person, you're following the rules for magic jar. At no point is the possessed body in magic jar your home body.


    Matthew Morris wrote:

    Well I'd hope it's the original body. True Mind Switch (which I'm using as a basis for powe level) was a Telepath 9 power that no matter how many times you jumped you were still limited to negative effects if the previous body was killed. (So stashing it in a demiplane, or petrifying it or something so it couldn't be easily killed was a good idea). And if it got killed you gained a negative level.

    I read it as you can transfer to a clone and have it be your new permanent body, but if you transfer to another person, you're following the rules for magic jar. At no point is the possessed body in magic jar your home body.

    That's the interpretation I am personally favoring right now.

    Dark Archive

    Ral' Yareth wrote:
    Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
    Matthew Morris wrote:

    What come to mind of the body jumping trick is at least one of you (witch/familar) has to be in its real body. Nothing there on rereading seems to indicate the possessed body ever becomes truly 'yours' So to use my evil queen example (behind the spoiler)

    ** spoiler omitted **
    Now here's the rub. If the familiar is subsequently killed, does it end the effect (they both die) does it shut just the familiar to the witch's body, or does it shunt both souls to the witch's body, and she now has a souless husk she has to go *repossess*.

    Re-read the Hex it works better than that.

    At 10th-level, if the witch or her familiar is gravely injured or about to die, the soul of the dying one immediately transfers to the other’s body. The two souls share the surviving body peaceably, can communicate freely, and both retain their ability to think and reason. The host may allow the guest soul to take over the body temporarily or reclaim it as a move action. They can persist in this state indefinitely, or the guest can return to its own body (if available) by touch, transfer into a suitable vessel (such as a clone), or take over another body as if using magic jar (with no receptacle)

    The way it works AFAIK is:
    Witch kills familiar and it's soul jumps into the witches body.
    Familiar then Magic Jar's into a new body.
    Witch kills herself and joins the familiar in it's new body.
    Witch takes over a new body.

    Now if either the witch or the familiar's current body dies they jump back to wherever the other currently is.

    While I can't refute that, at the same time I'm not sure this is RAI.

    As I said above, maybe the "other's body" part was supposed to meant your original body. Fact is, untill we get an errata, we won't know for sure.

    Edit: don't get me wrong. Maybe you are right, but we can't know for sure since the description is very vague.

    Oh there's no way this RAI but purely as it's written it equates their original body, a clone body, the familiars body or any body they take over as equal in status.

    It's a poorly written power but most of the Witch stuff was pretty bad to be honest.

    It's a shame to, it's my favorite arcane class.


    Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
    Ral' Yareth wrote:
    Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
    Matthew Morris wrote:

    What come to mind of the body jumping trick is at least one of you (witch/familar) has to be in its real body. Nothing there on rereading seems to indicate the possessed body ever becomes truly 'yours' So to use my evil queen example (behind the spoiler)

    ** spoiler omitted **
    Now here's the rub. If the familiar is subsequently killed, does it end the effect (they both die) does it shut just the familiar to the witch's body, or does it shunt both souls to the witch's body, and she now has a souless husk she has to go *repossess*.

    Re-read the Hex it works better than that.

    At 10th-level, if the witch or her familiar is gravely injured or about to die, the soul of the dying one immediately transfers to the other’s body. The two souls share the surviving body peaceably, can communicate freely, and both retain their ability to think and reason. The host may allow the guest soul to take over the body temporarily or reclaim it as a move action. They can persist in this state indefinitely, or the guest can return to its own body (if available) by touch, transfer into a suitable vessel (such as a clone), or take over another body as if using magic jar (with no receptacle)

    The way it works AFAIK is:
    Witch kills familiar and it's soul jumps into the witches body.
    Familiar then Magic Jar's into a new body.
    Witch kills herself and joins the familiar in it's new body.
    Witch takes over a new body.

    Now if either the witch or the familiar's current body dies they jump back to wherever the other currently is.

    While I can't refute that, at the same time I'm not sure this is RAI.

    As I said above, maybe the "other's body" part was supposed to meant your original body. Fact is, untill we get an errata, we won't know for sure.

    Edit: don't get me wrong. Maybe you are right, but we can't know for sure since the description is very vague.

    Oh there's no way this RAI but purely as it's written it equates...

    Agreed, my favorite too.

    Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

    I understand your reading of it. I'm going to focus on the weasel words in "Transfer" to a clone, or "Take over" a person (like magic jar), to argue that the witch and familiar can't (easily) spend eternity body jumping. It's only a 10th level power after all.


    Matthew Morris wrote:
    It's only a 10th level power after all.

    To me that's the crucial part. I could see a 20th level power making you almost impossible to kill forever (with some drawback ), but not a 10th.

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


    The way it works AFAIK is:
    Witch kills familiar and it's soul jumps into the witches body.
    Familiar then Magic Jar's into a new body.
    Witch kills herself and joins the familiar in it's new body.
    Witch takes over a new body.

    In step 3 the witch has killed her familliar as the magic jar can only hold one essence. "Any life force with no where to go is treated as slain."

    Dark Archive

    LazarX wrote:
    Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


    The way it works AFAIK is:
    Witch kills familiar and it's soul jumps into the witches body.
    Familiar then Magic Jar's into a new body.
    Witch kills herself and joins the familiar in it's new body.
    Witch takes over a new body.

    In step 3 the witch has killed her familliar as the magic jar can only hold one essence.

    Well I'm going to have to disagree with that.

    a. There is no magic jar since it specifically states no receptacle and
    b. The point of the power is for the 2 to share one body and survive. If the sharing kills one of them it kinda defeats the purpose of the power.

    Remember the Magic Jar spell is only comes mentioned when the 2 are sharing a body and wants to leave it.

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
    LazarX wrote:
    Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


    The way it works AFAIK is:
    Witch kills familiar and it's soul jumps into the witches body.
    Familiar then Magic Jar's into a new body.
    Witch kills herself and joins the familiar in it's new body.
    Witch takes over a new body.

    In step 3 the witch has killed her familliar as the magic jar can only hold one essence.

    Well I'm going to have to disagree with that.

    a. There is no magic jar since it specifically states no receptacle and
    b. The point of the power is for the 2 to share one body and survive. If the sharing kills one of them it kinda defeats the purpose of the power.

    Remember the Magic Jar spell is only comes mentioned when the 2 are sharing a body and wants to leave it.

    The point of the power is for the witch to survive the death of her body.

    Reread... apparantly the way it works in the magic jar phase only the guest soul can leave and posess a suitable body, not both at once.

    Dark Archive

    LazarX wrote:
    Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
    LazarX wrote:
    Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


    The way it works AFAIK is:
    Witch kills familiar and it's soul jumps into the witches body.
    Familiar then Magic Jar's into a new body.
    Witch kills herself and joins the familiar in it's new body.
    Witch takes over a new body.

    In step 3 the witch has killed her familliar as the magic jar can only hold one essence.

    Well I'm going to have to disagree with that.

    a. There is no magic jar since it specifically states no receptacle and
    b. The point of the power is for the 2 to share one body and survive. If the sharing kills one of them it kinda defeats the purpose of the power.

    Remember the Magic Jar spell is only comes mentioned when the 2 are sharing a body and wants to leave it.

    The point of the power is for the witch to survive the death of her body.

    Nope,

    It's for the witch OR familiar to survive the death of their body as long as the other one is still alive.

    It's what constitutes "the other one still being alive" that has caused all the confusion with this power.


    Matthew Morris wrote:

    Well I'd hope it's the original body. True Mind Switch (which I'm using as a basis for powe level) was a Telepath 9 power that no matter how many times you jumped you were still limited to negative effects if the previous body was killed. (So stashing it in a demiplane, or petrifying it or something so it couldn't be easily killed was a good idea). And if it got killed you gained a negative level.

    I read it as you can transfer to a clone and have it be your new permanent body, but if you transfer to another person, you're following the rules for magic jar. At no point is the possessed body in magic jar your home body.

    Magic Jar also has a duration. Nothing says that your magic jar jumps are permenant. Returning to your body or a clone, yes, but nothing says you get a permanent version of magic jar.

    Theoretically you could keep both you and your familiar hopscotching so that magic jar durations don't both expire at the same time - ASSUMING - that a magic jar'd body counts as your "real body" for purposes of twin soul. I'm not sure that's a clear certainty. It could be construed that if the witch dies, hops into the familiar, and then into someone else with the magic jar effect if the familiar dies it has no where to go (the witch's body is dead) and dies for real.


    Patrick Gurdgiel wrote:
    Matthew Morris wrote:

    Well I'd hope it's the original body. True Mind Switch (which I'm using as a basis for powe level) was a Telepath 9 power that no matter how many times you jumped you were still limited to negative effects if the previous body was killed. (So stashing it in a demiplane, or petrifying it or something so it couldn't be easily killed was a good idea). And if it got killed you gained a negative level.

    I read it as you can transfer to a clone and have it be your new permanent body, but if you transfer to another person, you're following the rules for magic jar. At no point is the possessed body in magic jar your home body.

    Magic Jar also has a duration. Nothing says that your magic jar jumps are permenant. Returning to your body or a clone, yes, but nothing says you get a permanent version of magic jar.

    Theoretically you could keep both you and your familiar hopscotching so that magic jar durations don't both expire at the same time - ASSUMING - that a magic jar'd body counts as your "real body" for purposes of twin soul. I'm not sure that's a clear certainty. It could be construed that if the witch dies, hops into the familiar, and then into someone else with the magic jar effect if the familiar dies it has no where to go (the witch's body is dead) and dies for real.

    Very good points.


    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Patrick Gurdgiel wrote:
    Magic Jar also has a duration. Nothing says that your magic jar jumps are permenant.

    Right... Except for that ¨ They can persist in this state indefinitely¨ part.

    The container-less Magic Jar aspect seems most surely to lead to insta-death for the possessed body (since there is no container, the soul would be destroyed ala Magic Jar, and this ability doesn`t suggest any alternative). For the Witch`s and Familar`s souls themselves, they can be `saved` by the Twin Soul ability instantly jerking them into the body of the other. Basically, the only way to kill the Witch or her Familiar is by killing BOTH OF THEM before either can use a Standard Action to take over another body.

    Further question: Assuming this ability ISN`T Errata`d to remove the Magic Jar vs. other targets aspect (i.e. insta-death), doesn`t it seem like any Saving Throw Bonuses vs. Death Effects should apply, given the abilty is basically an insta-death effect? Normal Magic Jar isn`t, since to use it you must be using a container, but this version doesn`t use one yet per RAW the target`s soul would follow the Magic Jar rules (and instantly die). ...?


    Quandary wrote:
    Patrick Gurdgiel wrote:
    Magic Jar also has a duration. Nothing says that your magic jar jumps are permenant.

    Right... Except for that ¨ They can persist in this state indefinitely¨ part.

    My understanding is that, this refers to the "sharing a body with the familiar" part not the "possessing others" (magic jar) part.

    In other words, the possession would still be restricted by magic jar's duration.


    I can definitely see that too, in fact, looking at the text I would probably defer to that reading...
    Though since it`s at-will, nothing`s stopping you from swapping back into your familiar/master`s body, and them readying to swap back into the body you just vacated (the target just gets a new save every time you do this).

    Anyways, I think that while discussing the exact meaning of the current RAW has some value, it seems 99% likely that this ability will be seeing some sort of Errata (changing the RAW), because even if one doesn`t have any `balance` issue with with the RAW functioning, the ability as written just leaves too many areas undefined or vague (more detailed in the other thread this came up in). Here`s hoping Paizo notices this issue, and steps up to bring this ability into super-star quality territory with their next Errata/printing, it`s a great flavorful ability even if I think some of the corner-cases of it`s current RAW aren`t so balanced or clear regarding certain issues.


    Is the twin soul power a touch effect or a ranged one ala Magic Jar?


    Matthew Morris wrote:


    It's not really an 'at will death attack' Unless the witch plans to be running around in her familiar's body, or killing her familiar to get the soul in her. (Neither seem to be a good idea).

    Also, if the displaced soul dies (since there's no 'jar') then the 'rider' in the possessed body would possibly die if something forces her out.

    Magic Jar, Pathfinder RPG, pg 309 wrote:
    If the host body is slain, you return to the magic jar, if within range, and the life force of the host departs (it is dead). If the host body is slain beyond the range of the spell, both you and the host die. Any life force with nowhere to go is treated as slain.

    I think it would be a great idea. In fact that's exactly what I would do. I would immediately kill my familiar and have it in my body. Every time I was in combat I would have my familiar try to magic jar every foe, starting with the strongest. When it succeeds I have, at the very least, an additional temporary ally.

    In addition, as there is nothing stating that I can't commune with my familiar when it is in my body, I would assume that I now never have to worry about loosing my spells because of familiar death.

    Finally, even if the rider was going to die, since the wording of twin soul says that it activates whenever the witch or familiar are "gravely injured or about to die," one can assume that it would trigger before whatever effect would result in death.

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Ral' Yareth wrote:

    Also,

    since there isn't a receptacle to the magic jar effect, what happens to the original owner? Does he die? Does he have to be dead already? Does he go to the familiar?

    If you choose to return to your body, does it need to be alive? Or just intact?

    If you read the Beast Bond archetype more closely, you'll note the magic jar effect only occurs between the Witch and her Familliar. And if the witch is jumping into the familliar's body, both souls remain residence within it. It does not become a freely usable magic jar effect to take over a third body.


    LazarX wrote:
    Ral' Yareth wrote:

    Also,

    since there isn't a receptacle to the magic jar effect, what happens to the original owner? Does he die? Does he have to be dead already? Does he go to the familiar?

    If you choose to return to your body, does it need to be alive? Or just intact?

    If you read the Beast Bond archetype more closely, you'll note the magic jar effect only occurs between the Witch and her Familliar. And if the witch is jumping into the familliar's body, both souls remain residence within it. It does not become a freely usable magic jar effect to take over a third body.

    Incorrect. If you read the the ability it says:

    Quote:
    or take over another body as if using magic jar (with no receptacle).

    Note how it says another body and not the witch's body or the familiar's body

    Sczarni

    SeaJay wrote:
    Is the twin soul power a touch effect or a ranged one ala Magic Jar?

    This is one of the reasons why necroing a four year old thread is a bad idea.

    Next time, just make your own thread.

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