A conversation about how to handle Epic Levels for a new DM


Advice

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So basically here is the situation I find myself in. For the past year I have been DMing a homebrew PF game for four of my friends that started at 1st level and has recently reached 17th level. This is by far the highest level game I have ever DMed and while we are having a blast yesterday we had a conversation that got me thinking.

So what is happening is the final confrontation with the campaign villain is coming up and we were all planning on ending the game once his evil butt was finally in the ground and we wrapped up a few story elements in a satisfying way. Now however my players are thinking that they love this game and the characters they are playing and would like me to continue it with another story arc that leads them into epic levels. I have no problem with this from a story side (I can always spin a fun new tale) but I have no idea how to handle it game mechanically. I have done a bit of research before putting this out to the community but I think I should ask for a little help. Here is what I have read so far: The PF core rule book’s rather slim notes on epic levels, The wotc 3.0 epic level handbook, and numerous threads on this website and others on the subject.

My questions off the top of my head are these:

The epic level spell system from the ELH, it seems entertaining and fun but how should I even handle this? I don’t know it well enough to decide what I should allow or not.

Are epic monsters actually worth their challenge rating or are they more or less powerful. The reason I ask is because of the experience I have already had with high level monsters where the CR seems either a little situational or just plain wonky.

What is appropriate treasure for epic levels, I know Pathfinder treasure is a bit more than 3.5 but are the numbers in the ELH even close to where I want to be?

How should I handle Pathfinder Core classes abilities increasing into epic levels, the ones that increase at a set level can just continue I suppose but how should I balance this?
Some Epic feats will work fine I think but what about ones like Ignore Material Components, in PF?

Some classic plots don’t work very well at high levels any suggestions on which ones would work well even into epic?

As farther info about the party it consists of a wizard, cleric, druid and fighter from core book only as we have only recently got the APG. 25 point buy, newer players with character’s wealth close to WBL (at little over at this point).

I’m not asking for an entire rulebook’s worth of advice about these issues (unless you want to give it) but I do want to hear the advice of veteran players who have messed around at those levels.

Also if all this has been covered on a blog or thread elsewhere feel free to just post the link =)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

All I can tell you is that very little, perhaps nothing you've done so far can prepare you for an Epic game. You're in travely largely uncharted territory.

At this point I do have one recomendation. Take whatever random treasure generation table you've been using fold it up and shove it down the toilet. You should be hand placing all treasure from now on with an eye as to how it will impact the overall power in your campaign.

I would simply not bother using pretty much anything from the ELH, especially the epic spellcasting system.. Unless you want your game to quickly mutate to Rocket Launcher Tag.


LazarX wrote:
I would simply not bother using pretty much anything from the ELH, especially the epic spellcasting system.. Unless you want your game to quickly mutate to Rocket Launcher Tag.

Why... what is wrong with an epic spell that can kill up to 13 full-powered gods, with a save DC so high not even a 20 can succeed, with a bonus on the SR check higher than the gods spell resistance itself? (All right, so it won't technically work. The gods are immune to death effects, which the spell was. But you could change the death effect part if you up the spellcraft DC some. After all, there really is no limit to what a epic spell can do...)

But yeah, you would be best to totally ignore the epic spellcasting rules. I would go as far as saying, just retire the characters, and put them in places of power. Kings, great advisers, etc. At that level they really should be. Then make new ones that work for your retired characters, as the retired characters are too busy running their kingdoms and need minions to do their dirty work.

I will grant my suggestion may not be very helpful, as I basically just said "Don't do it." Can it be done? Possibly, but I have never seen it succeed. The game can be broken enough at mid to high levels, but epic levels just shatter it, grind the pieces to dust, and scatter the dust across the multiverse.


Lol the DM who taught me the game advised me to simply end the game as well, but the players are enthusiastic about continuing the game so I thought I should at least give it a try. So far I have advice about hand placing treasure and avoiding the epic level spell casting rules. Sounds good. Perhaps Epic Levels are irredeemably broken, I dunno I have never been there but we still have 3 levels till cap so I'm going to take time to consider it at least.


My recommendation? Shelve the game for a while at level 20. It appears like Paizo and a few 3rd party publishers are working on Epic Level rules, so you might just wait.

The idea of having new characters work for the old characters is awesome. That way, if the epic rules do come out sometime soon, you can just quickly wrap up the new ones and unretire the old ones.


Cheapy wrote:

My recommendation? Shelve the game for a while at level 20. It appears like Paizo and a few 3rd party publishers are working on Epic Level rules, so you might just wait.

The idea of having new characters work for the old characters is awesome. That way, if the epic rules do come out sometime soon, you can just quickly wrap up the new ones and unretire the old ones.

Hmmm that is prolly a good idea. They really want to keep playing but maybe I can tempt them to start new characters with goodies: "You thought 25 point buy was high? How do you feel about 32 points?????"


Older editions capped things off at 30th, after that you started paying "down" saves and other things until you started in on demi-god hood.

See Deities and Demigods.

=====

Personally I like the Epic spell my players came up with that instantly summoned a prismatic dragon and was doable within the first 5 or so levels of Epic. Granted it nearly kills the caster but who cares when the prismatic dragon gets a full round of actions to dispatch anything near enough to harm you. Personally ditching Epic Spells doesn't really damage epic play all that much.

In the few Epic games I've run and played in it stopped being about being able to kill the bad guy... that's a given.... Instead the focus shifted to being in the right place at the right to time to kill the correct bad guy. Failure resulted in unspeakable horrors and catastrophe to everyone one and everything else... with the result being the PCs scrambling to find the right to "kill" to undo the snafu they caused. All set to the swishy sounds of them steamrolling large numbers of hideously powerful critters that get in their way, while flaunting every cool power they have.

Although one DM I had was so skillful at designing and running Epic games that he had even our 25th+ level heroes scared for their lives about 90% of the time. Of course knowing that there was an Epic level emperor of at least 80th level with subordinates ranging in level down from there. Did not help our frame of mind none.

=====

I say take Paizo's quickie rules on BAB and Saves over ELH rules (epic saves, you screw so much up). Cap classes at 20th and offer incentives to multi-class. Run this out to 40th level at most. Then if they still want more go for Divine Rules and have them level with Outsider HD for 20 more levels while pursuing Divine Ranks. If they end up a 60th level character ( 20/20/Outsider HD) Divine Rank 15+ god and still haven't had enough.... I think it's time you look into Big Eyes Small Mouth or possibly Anima: Beyond Fantasy.

Alternatively you could cap the game play at 20th and just do the above mentioned "pick the right bad guy to kill" and let the player strut their stuff with those lovely capstones they earned. You could also adapt the E6 rules (ducks knives and flaming torches from the E6 people) as a guide to just handing out bonus feats as rewards. Possibly even Epic ELH style feats.


Hmmm the spirit is willing but the rules comprehension is weak. It sounds like you've played epic levels extensively Dorje, tell me more...


Lordjimbo wrote:

So basically here is the situation I find myself in. For the past year I have been DMing a homebrew PF game for four of my friends that started at 1st level and has recently reached 17th level. This is by far the highest level game I have ever DMed and while we are having a blast yesterday we had a conversation that got me thinking.

So what is happening is the final confrontation with the campaign villain is coming up and we were all planning on ending the game once his evil butt was finally in the ground and we wrapped up a few story elements in a satisfying way. Now however my players are thinking that they love this game and the characters they are playing and would like me to continue it with another story arc that leads them into epic levels. I have no problem with this from a story side (I can always spin a fun new tale) but I have no idea how to handle it game mechanically. I have done a bit of research before putting this out to the community but I think I should ask for a little help. Here is what I have read so far: The PF core rule book’s rather slim notes on epic levels, The wotc 3.0 epic level handbook, and numerous threads on this website and others on the subject.

My questions off the top of my head are these:

The epic level spell system from the ELH, it seems entertaining and fun but how should I even handle this? I don’t know it well enough to decide what I should allow or not.

Are epic monsters actually worth their challenge rating or are they more or less powerful. The reason I ask is because of the experience I have already had with high level monsters where the CR seems either a little situational or just plain wonky.

What is appropriate treasure for epic levels, I know Pathfinder treasure is a bit more than 3.5 but are the numbers in the ELH even close to where I want to be?

How should I handle Pathfinder Core classes abilities increasing into epic levels, the ones that increase at a set level can just continue I suppose but how should I balance this?
Some Epic feats...

I basically used the 3.5 rules when I got my group up to level 21, but I allowed casters to learn new spells which is not what the book suggest.

edit: Rewrite of post.


This thread may be of some use to you, over on DF. Lots of epic material on those boards, some of pretty good balance, some not.

You might look for the Fern-Merc epic spellcasting document as an alternative th the existing epic spellcasting system. It is by far the best fix I've ever found to the problem of epic spellcasting. Not sure if it is posted on DF, but it should be somewhere.

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

My advice? Pretend the epic spellcasting rules in ELH don't exist. If you omit those, then the rest can be made to work out, with a couple assumptions:

1. Your players want to continue the game, not game the system. If they want to game the system, then just stop now, it won't be any fun.

2. The game has to be more about plot than about the next great thing to kill and take its stuff.

3. Be prepared to be very frustrated by a few things - there will always be one or two things that cause you no END of problems as a GM.

4. Do not allow the Book of Nine Swords in your campaign (primarily due to amazingly stupid things like Iron Heart Surge), and put the Clever Wrestler feat on the banned list. If you're going straight Pathfinder, of course, this is not an issue, but if you were going straight Pathfinder, you wouldn't be looking at the ELH.

5. You can follow the Core Rulebook advice on spell slots, BAB advancement, etc., or you can follow the ELH method. Unless you're going to go to really really high levels, it won't really matter which you use.

6. Don't be compulsive about stat blocks and monster abilities. You will save yourself a LOT of time if you just approximate it and then wing it - and you'll need the time.

7. Invest in Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary, which is a 250+ page book of templates. It's amazingly useful.

8. And a +1 to Peter Stewart's advice about Dicefreaks. They've got some awesome templates for powerful versions of ghosts, liches, death knights, etc. that are very handy.

I could go on and on, but part of it's just experience. Do it. It's a blast, but it's also a huge learning experience.


I'd strongly suggest homebrewing your own epic level rules. For an example:

1: For any basic statistic or class ability (except skills and hit points), use your 20 "best" levels in that statistic or ability to calculate what you get. So, for example, a wizard 20 / fighter 10 gets a base attack of 15 (10 from fighter, plus five from ten levels of wizard), a fort save of +10, reflex +7, will +12, and casts spells as a 20th level wizard. By contrast, a wizard 20 / loremaster 10 still casts spells as a 20th level wizard. And a rogue 20 / assassin 10 still only has 10 dice of sneak attack. And so on.

2: for skills and hit points, progress as normal - but int and con modifiers stop at level 20. Skill max ranks increases by one per two levels.

3: grant levels relatively quickly, since each additional level no longer does very much. (Possibly also grant levels in pairs - that way there's a decent chunk of time where people don't need to recalculate any stats, but you can still gain competence at a reasonable rate.)

4: allow some epic feats, but make sure you double-check them for appropriateness - and also note that some may need their pre-reqs reduced, given that you'll have fewer skill ranks in your key skills and can't get caster level much above 20.

What this set of rules does: It means that characters will not increase much in raw power - instead they'll gain additional flexibility. It'll also open up access to progression paths that would otherwise be horribly suboptimal - like an int 13 fighter deciding to put in a bit of study of wizardry, which you'd never want to do under any sort of classic epic rules. And you don't have to worry about saving throws, attack rolls, AC, etc, scaling off the chart the way they do under classic epic rules; this also means you've got a wider range of enemies that you can use and still have them be meaningful.

I have used these rules in an epic game; it worked fairly well. The characters got to wander around and do world-changing things, but I never hit a point where the game system just crumbled out from under my feet. And I could stat up a level 60 NPC (for use as a greek style deity) and have it not be completely off the charts relative to level 22-30-ish PCs.


I ran a long-lasting campaign that took characters from 17th level all the way to 25th using 3.0/3.5 rules.

A few bits of advice

  • The ELH is right in saying things get extremely messy if you allow BABs to allow further and further iterative attacks. Cap iterative attacks at 5. BABs can climb higher, but cap the extra attacks. So, a BAB of +26 would get attacks of +26/+21/+16/+11/+6. No 6th attack at +1. So long as you cap the extra attacks at 5, there's no real problem with adding class BABs together to get a total BAB. (i.e. Fighter 15/Ranger 15 = BAB 30)

  • When my group hit epic levels, I started handing out a lot of additional feats. If you use the ELH, there are specific Epic Feats in it that are a lot of fun. When characters earn a feat, you may want to consider allowing them to pick up an Epic Feat in addition to the standard one. Or just give out bonus ones. This seques into treasure...

  • Epic treasure was a huge headache for me. Random treasure generation really wasn't viable and I had to put specific treasure in the adventure tailored for each character. The wealth level just got too high though so I had to look at alternate forms of reward. Let me highly, highly recommend the following: Feats and Templates as Treasure. Seriously. Consider non-material rewards at this stage of the game.

  • Epic Casting and Epic Spells can definitely get hairy. Your group really needs to work with you and not abuse the nature of the epic casting system if it's going to function. A house rule that I've used in lieu of this was to continue spell progression past level 9 indefinitely. No new spells are learned, but metamagic feats can be applied to the higher level spells. (If you do this, might I recommend giving casters a free metamagic feat each time they unlock a spell level higher than 9?)

    So, the way we ran it, our party's Cleric picked up a 10th level spell slot at Level 21 and a free metamagic feat. At 22 he got a 2nd 10th level slot. At 23 he got a 3rd 10th level slot and his first 11th level slot along with a free metamagic feat. The progression was the same for the party's full wizard. Both players loved it and felt extremely powerful being able to apply metamagic feats to their high-end spells

  • If you happen to use the alternate epic casting suggestion above, you can simply assign some of the epic spells included in the ELH spell levels. You could make Hellball a 12th level spell and Peripity a 10th level spell, for instance, and remove the skill check required to cast if you wanted.

    Aaaaand...

    gbonehead wrote:


    6. Don't be compulsive about stat blocks and monster abilities. You will save yourself a LOT of time if you just approximate it and then wing it - and you'll need the time.

    7. Invest in Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary, which is a 250+ page book of templates. It's amazingly useful.

    These points. Especially 6. Big time especially 6.


  • Interesting options and opinions all, thank you for the feedback. I’ve realized that no matter what way I choose to do it my lack of experience will make it a little hair raising but luckily my group are all a bunch of good sports so it should all be good. Seeing as there doesn’t appear to be any easy or obviously well “balanced” way of handling epic levels I think what I will do is ask my group tonight what it is they really want out of epic levels and just facilitate that as best I can.

    Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

    Lordjimbo wrote:
    Interesting options and opinions all, thank you for the feedback. I’ve realized that no matter what way I choose to do it my lack of experience will make it a little hair raising but luckily my group are all a bunch of good sports so it should all be good. Seeing as there doesn’t appear to be any easy or obviously well “balanced” way of handling epic levels I think what I will do is ask my group tonight what it is they really want out of epic levels and just facilitate that as best I can.

    You should definitely go for it. You're already running a high-level group; it's not like there will be some sudden "oh my God!" moment where they're suddenly uber-powerful.

    The most important part is to enjoy it. If you're not enjoying it, then why bother?


    I second (or is it fifth by now) the notion to ignore the Epic Spellcasting section of the ELH. As for monsters from the ELH, you're going to have to eyeball it, depending on the abilities of your group; the CR ratings are not quite but very close to completely useless, especially after converting from 3.5 to PF, doubly so once you stretch past CR 30.

    Going with pure 3.5, there is very little difference numerically until you pass level 26/27, at which point you start getting access to some of the more powerful (and sometimes broken) feats. Otherwise, the balance looks decent, if shaky, until around level 40.

    If you stick with the (meager) guidelines from the PF core rulebook, and don't include any material from the ELH, things should stay numerically sane until about level 25, but you will have trouble with bonuses outstripping defenses, and thus starting to make d20 dice rolls irrelevant, by the time you pass level 30.

    My personal recommendation is to use the PF core guidelines, and allow feats from the ELH on a case-by-case basis. If you want to allow spells greater than level 9 other than just metamagic-ing them, design them yourself and double-check how well it is balanced against a lower level spell with lots of metamagic.

    If the players reach a point where they want to be able to challenge the gods (which I would restrict to level 40+), then you might consider giving them a way to get divine rank 0 similar to the Divine Ascendant dragon prestige class from the 3.5 Draconomicon. They can still realistically challenge demon lords and demigods (especially if you also limit demigods to divine rank 0).

    Once you reach the point of the players wanting to become real deities, you can continue by doing all you can to avoid combat. Make it a political game, more like Kingmaker, except that instead of discovering new parts of the land, their deities are creating it.


    One of the suggestions in the Core rulebook (my favorite until an ELH comes out) is to keep it simple by making 20 the hard cap for a given class, but allowing people to continue levelling in other classes. This makes it simple and easy to figure out.

    Obviously, you could use the rules as they are and just do the math for the different spells per day/spells known/B.A.B./Saves/class features progression and it wouldn't be too difficult, but it gets a little wonky trying to figure out what to do with 11th level spell slots. So maybe your arcane caster could start into divine caster levels (Oracle/Sorcerers are SAD and can be pretty intense) or the rogue could try bard or PrC into shadowdancer. Meat shields could get even meatier or start developing a new skillset.

    Regardless, though, since Epic play is inherently very different from normal play, consider allowing a respec upon hitting 21st. Admittedly, if people decide to go ground up on a 21st level character, it may get a little bit bonkers, and probably take forever, but that's something that may not be a bad idea.

    Scarab Sages

    I've got two suggestions for you, one shamelessly stolen from someone else.

    First suggestion: allow them to continue leveling by taking levels in another class. Increase the challenge of creatures from the bestiary similarly, taking pc classes that play to their strengths. Barbarian minotaur anyone?

    As you enter epic levels, wealth becomes a HUGE issue for game balance. The ability to craft magical items can easily destroy game balance. If you continue providing them with wealth and magical gear, then you need to stop being afraid about actually destroying the gear they're carrying.

    Epic gear can be... fearsome... Don't allow players to make/buy epic items. They should only be available as specific items, artifacts of great power. Be careful in their placement and use.

    Experience becomes... less useful. Instead, switch to a so-often system. That being players get to level every so often, as they progress through content.

    Players will expect more and more deference from the world, as well as more renown. This is an important time to point out to them that progressing into epic levels doesn't mean that they're the biggest fish around. It means that they just exited the river and entered the ocean. And there be whales here!

    The other option is one that is most like starting a new campaign. They progress through some quest/trial/whatever to obtain a state which allows them to transcend the realms of mere mortals and enter the field of the gods themselves. And it really is a different field.

    On the celestial plane, where the game continues, they are level 1 characters. Have them use the stats from their level 20's, and of course they keep their gear. They'll want to write this up on a secondary character sheet. If they need/want to return to the prime plane, they are level 20 characters with whatever loot they've accumulated so far. The idea here is that they are actually gaining power in the celestial realm, and are still powerful characters. However, in COMPARISON to the other creatures that exist there, they are level one. You'll need to make adjustments to the bestiary creatures for gear, but otherwise it should be pretty easy to run.


    I've actually made some Epic rules based of the ideas presented in E6 for playing past 20th. You can see them with the link below. I find that templates and the monster advancement rules for making monsters above CR 20 work best, so you can customized them with your players capabilities in mind so it is a fun encounter. Treasure I would continue doing the same as at 20th level. Epic gear is hard to balance, so I would just not have it. Hopefully characters past 20th have other things to spend money on besides increasing their personal power.

    E20.


    If someone asks about Battledance, it's a good time to scrap the campaign.

    My first game was Epic, and my current game is planned into epic. It can be really fun, if you avoid epic spells.


    An update: Having talked extensively with my group now they’ve revealed to me they’re epic ambitions which include some pretty far out stuff (rulership of the material plane, demilichdom, godhood). Having DMed this game level 1-17 and kept both balance and challenge pretty well in line this whole time I am ready for a game balance vacation. As such I am allowing both the 3.0 ELH and Deities and Demigods and also any crazy feats, spells, or templates they find or make up that they can convince me their characters have found a way to acquire (and now that I’m not real invested in game balance I’m pretty easy to convince, just tell me a good tale about why that wish spell should be able to turn you into a vampire who has absolutely no weaknesses and I’ll agree).

    I’ve given them fair warning that because I’ve never played at this level my ability to control encounter difficulty is going to be approaching nil but they agreed that since it’s all about the fun it doesn’t matter if things swing between pathetically easily and ridiculously deadly so with that out of the way I must say I’m looking forward to our first epic adventure =)

    Thank you to those of you who have contributed to this thread, I’m going to send my players over this way to look over the options many of you have posted to decide how they would like to progress into epic levels. If anyone else has any opinions or options they’d like to share please do, I’ll be keeping an eye on this thread for as long as it stays active to learn new things.


    Magicdealer wrote:
    On the celestial plane, where the game continues, they are level 1 characters. Have them use the stats from their level 20's, and of course they keep their gear. They'll want to write this up on a secondary character sheet. If they need/want to return to the prime plane, they are level 20 characters with whatever loot they've accumulated so far. The idea here is that they are actually gaining power in the celestial realm, and are still powerful characters. However, in COMPARISON to the other creatures that...

    This is a really interesting idea, but do the players keep their spells/feats/etc.? Or are they ACTUALLY brought down to level 1 with level 20 equipment?


    One big point to consider about Epic play is that Death is rarely final, especially if at least one party member gets away with key spells (Wizard, Cleric, Rogue, and even Fighter is Pathfinders far more lenient skill system for cross-class skills.)

    Considering some characters have lichieness and demigod-goodness on brain it is not inconceivable that one or more party members will actually be really tough to a Big Bad to stuff out. Even in the case of TPK say that Wizard lich reforms and then busts out with Wishes to bring everyone else back. The PCs are virtually Big Bads themselves in that way.

    ====

    To continue examples of Epic play. I personally ran a 25th level gestalt 3.5 game based in Eberron. The characters were a multi-armed extradimisonal (I think Xill) rogue, a ancient Warforged (construct race) Wizard, and rather demented dragon-marked hair. The Warforged wizard did not use any Epic spell and instead used those slots to load up on meta-magic spells.

    The party's long term plan was... subjection of the continent and eventually the world (with great power comes, well a wish to exercise that power over those weaker then you :D ).

    My plot, which ran concurrently with whatever it was they wanted to do, was having high powered two factions in the world (Lovecraftain Horrors vs Dream Monsters) jockeying for power as well. It was easy enough for me to dangle bait in front of my players to draw them into the conflict. After rampaging about for a bit they began to run low on various resources and began looking for treasure and artifacts to boost their power. This got them going into an encounter with a Demon Dragon.

    They dropped in and kick his rear. Before the looting could commence.... Theatrics, drama, vertical columns of sold green ectoplasm with ropy nightmare tentacles, all manner of mirror minion critters spilling out of them, and sinister insane laughter.

    Given the fight they had already been through and the spell=slots/HP expended they decided (as I was 90% sure they would) to with draw. This left the major Lovecraftain Horrors in control of a key artifact and time to get their plans in gear. Following battles found the "heros" trying to regain control of the artifact.

    The most f-ed up move I saw the whole game was the Warforged Wizard who used an anticipate teleport spell to intercept an incoming super Dream Monster, Timestoped, layered down about 10 Delayed Blast Fireballs, and then sat back and laughed as the thing was all but crisped. Lucky for me it survived and was able to quickly change its tone from demanding to pleading for help.

    ====

    For the actual lesson, don't be afraid to brandish big ugly fights one after another after another. This is Epic play if it isn't a forgone steam roller it should be aiming for a TPK (because again death may not that much of an impediment). If they don't know when to run and regroup by now... well they should be playing against god like entities :p

    ====

    I agree with many of the posters who point out that things begin to really break down just past 25th level. Even the older edition epic play cut out at 30th level. At which point you were expect to do a major quest (like build a continent spanning highway network... by... your... self), ascend to demi-god status and retire the character.

    ====

    IMO use the Epic Spells only as rough guide to artifact powers, don't let the players or your monsters use them on their own.

    ====

    To elaborate on my earlier comment. If you have heard of E6 you can use the same concept to Cap advancement at 20th and then award "Epic Feats" with a given amount of EXP gained. Many of the Epic Feats in the SRD/ELH work quite well for this as those are how virtually all classes gained access to additional abilities. Add a few feats to continue repeating abilities and boost saves (up to a certain cap).

    http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/206323-e6-game-inside-d -d.html

    RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

    I've played in an epic campaign or two with some really experienced epic players. I've usually topped out in the mid-teens, so epic stuff was really weird and new for me. There were some things I noticed.

    1. Things are really swingy. You're either super powerful, or totally gimped. I played an epic warlock, and my epic feat let me teleport at will. It was my main big power. And then we were stuck in a dungeon that was a teleport dead zone, so I was pretty much gimped. Most effects are save or die or save or suck.

    2. Most things are immune to most things. Basically, at epic levels, most critters were immune to most attack forms, but often had an Achilles heel that was kind of hard to find. This was kind of frustrating. You would try to use a cool new power, and everything would be immune to it, or have an undetectable ally with a readied action to dispel it, etc. etc.

    3. Rounds take forever. Fighters get 9 attacks per round, wizards have an army of summoned critters, animate undead, golems, simulacra, cohorts from Leadership, etc. etc., plus at least 2 spells per round to cast, plus ongoing effects, etc. etc.

    Dark Archive

    Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

    My advice is to ease yourself into epic-level play as slowly as possible. In particular, be very, very careful about giving the party access to epic-level toys in the early days - it's far easier to hand these out slowly and make them really earn them than to take them away once the players have them.

    Perhaps it is a good idea to impress upon the players that once they make the transition from normal play to epic-level play they go from being big fish in a small pond to being small fish in a big pond that spans the entire multiverse. For good or ill, they start to attract the attention of powerful entities that have agendas of their own. Really impress on the players that their characters that they are moving up to the big league and that although the rewards are going to be mthic in scope, so are the risks.

    Impress upon the players that most of the things that their characters are interested in (rulership of the material plane, demilichdom, godhood) are be hard to achieve and may attract opposition from epic-level factions that have interests of their own. For example, many campaign worlds have a group of powerful but shadowy figures who remain in the background, manipulating worldly affairs in order to maintain the status quo. They might be an order of reclusive wizards who regard themselves as guardians of the cosmic balance or a party of retired adventurers who don't want anybody rocking the boat too much. Either way, they are unlikely to be impressed by a bunch of upstarts swaggering around thinking that they can reshape the campaign world any way they please.

    Also, try not to use epic-level monsters too much. Instead, throw a few class levels on an standard monster - for example, a Marilith Antipaladin might be a serious threat to most epic-level characters. And try to use groups of opponents rather than a single BBEG - a determined epic-level party can take down a single bad guy quickly no matter how tough he looks on paper.

    Dark Archive

    Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber
    SmiloDan wrote:
    Things are really swingy. You're either super powerful, or totally gimped. I played an epic warlock, and my epic feat let me teleport at will. It was my main big power. And then we were stuck in a dungeon that was a teleport dead zone, so I was pretty much gimped. Most effects are save or die or save or suck.

    The dice are far less important at epic-level play. The size of the bonuses that characters possess can be far more important on the outcome of a skill roll or saving throw than the actual result that turns up on a d20. As you reach the epic levels, characters have modifiers so big that they reduce the element of chance in the game dramatically. Epic-level combat is about detecting and exploiting vulnerabilities rather than wading into combat swinging a sword wildly.


    Prime Evil wrote:

    Epic-level combat is about detecting and exploiting vulnerabilities rather than wading into combat swinging a sword wildly.

    To true. The other thing that comes to the surface rather quickly are the weakness of an overspecialized build. While good in theory craft, in Epic play as its often "rocket tag" any weakness can be exposed at any time. Additionally if no weakness are forth coming, creating one can be just as devastating and sometimes even more unexpected.

    An example from play, super tanked up fighter in Fortified Full-plate with various will boosting/mind-control prevention add-ons. This guy was quite literally the embodiment of the tank for the party. Almost nothing touched him. If he had been created after 2005 he would have fit "I'm the Juggernaut b+~&~!" We let him roll forward and targeted those few things that did give him trouble (ethereal, touch attack monsters).

    Come to the final boss fight of an extremely protracted dungeon crawl. Due to an item allowed into the game (dust of dispel), the Big Bad suppressed the Fortified armor. He then hit the fighter with an Epic Feat that forces a Fort Save or Die, which the armor normally would have stopped... no big deal right? Fighter's player rolls a 1, literally the only roll that would have caused him to fail. That's when the encounter went from a sure victory to utter and total mass party panic.

    What is amusing is this was a tactic the DM pick up from us, "anything you can abuse, I can abuse better." Back in 3.0 the Bard wasn't a half-bad dispeller so I'd often open fights by neutralizing weapons or other magical gear.

    Scarab Sages

    Aranai wrote:


    This is a really interesting idea, but do the players keep their spells/feats/etc.? Or are they ACTUALLY brought down to level 1 with level 20 equipment?

    While on the celestial plane, they are effectively level 1 characters. They only get the feats/abilities listed for a level one character of their choice, however they get to keep their stat bonuses/penalties from levels/aging.

    They basically have to relearn everything that they want to use to affect these incredibly powerful beings that they're now in combat with.

    Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

    Lordjimbo wrote:
    An update: Having talked extensively with my group now they’ve revealed to me they’re epic ambitions which include some pretty far out stuff (rulership of the material plane, demilichdom, godhood). Having DMed this game level 1-17 and kept both balance and challenge pretty well in line this whole time I am ready for a game balance vacation. As such I am allowing both the 3.0 ELH and Deities and Demigods and also any crazy feats, spells, or templates they find or make up that they can convince me their characters have found a way to acquire (and now that I’m not real invested in game balance I’m pretty easy to convince, just tell me a good tale about why that wish spell should be able to turn you into a vampire who has absolutely no weaknesses and I’ll agree).

    This will probably be great fun, though I predict it will be short-lived. An endless stream of weird stuff gets old after a while, strangely enough.

    I think the only reason our campaign has held together so long is because I keep the weird stuff to a minimum - they're still doing stuff a lot like standard adventuring except that the perils and opponents are just more difficult. I make darn sure that roleplaying and non-combat encounters still play a part.


    gbonehead wrote:


    This will probably be great fun, though I predict it will be short-lived. An endless stream of weird stuff gets old after a while, strangely enough.

    I think the only reason our campaign has held together so long is because I keep the weird stuff to a minimum - they're still doing stuff a lot like standard adventuring except that the perils and opponents are just more difficult. I make darn sure that roleplaying and non-combat encounters still play a part.

    Yeah the other reason I'm pretty much blanket allowing things now is that the players have expressed that while they enjoyed being hard pressed during this story by the villain they're in the mood to just let it all hang out now and enjoy being omnipotent for awhile. I honestly don't think that they want the epic challenges part of epic levels just the "Finally now all the npcs have to do what we say because we are da greatest!" part. I think this is really more of an extended epilogue then a new chapter for this game.

    RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

    I agree with Prime Evil. Especially the bits about adding class levels to monsters rather than using epic level monsters.

    And you can use my idea of a high level duskblade marilith getting 11 or so hits with a melee weapon channeling a disintegrate! (I figure a homebrew epic level feat will allow her to convert a ranged touch attack into a touch attack!)

    Also, use lots of critters. Action Economy is Key!

    Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

    SmiloDan wrote:

    I agree with Prime Evil. Especially the bits about adding class levels to monsters rather than using epic level monsters.

    And you can use my idea of a high level duskblade marilith getting 11 or so hits with a melee weapon channeling a disintegrate! (I figure a homebrew epic level feat will allow her to convert a ranged touch attack into a touch attack!)

    Also, use lots of critters. Action Economy is Key!

    Personally, I avoid homebrew feats - there's more than enough wacked out feats out there without me adding my own. Not that disintegrate is really a big deal anyways, since spell save DCs are relatively easy.

    However, anything with a touch attack can make excellent use of the Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike feats. Not that that helps the marilith duskblade, but she'd be better off taking Perfect Multiweapon Fighting anyways, which would give her six full attack sequences - a total of 24 attacks not including tail, etc. Add Quicken Spell-Like Ability and Multispell and she's pretty ugly.

    Personally, I'm inclined to create a marilith magus with a few levels in abjurant champion or spellwarp sniper.

    Sczarni

    gbonehead wrote:
    SmiloDan wrote:

    I agree with Prime Evil. Especially the bits about adding class levels to monsters rather than using epic level monsters.

    And you can use my idea of a high level duskblade marilith getting 11 or so hits with a melee weapon channeling a disintegrate! (I figure a homebrew epic level feat will allow her to convert a ranged touch attack into a touch attack!)

    Also, use lots of critters. Action Economy is Key!

    Personally, I avoid homebrew feats - there's more than enough wacked out feats out there without me adding my own. Not that disintegrate is really a big deal anyways, since spell save DCs are relatively easy.

    However, anything with a touch attack can make excellent use of the Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike feats. Not that that helps the marilith duskblade, but she'd be better off taking Perfect Multiweapon Fighting anyways, which would give her six full attack sequences - a total of 24 attacks not including tail, etc. Add Quicken Spell-Like Ability and Multispell and she's pretty ugly.

    Personally, I'm inclined to create a marilith magus with a few levels in abjurant champion or spellwarp sniper.

    Or an Amalgalm Marilith Kyton Magus.

    30' reach with chains, animate chains, 6xfull attacks, and whatever kind of touch/zap/murder spells you want.

    Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

    psionichamster wrote:

    Or an Amalgalm Marilith Kyton Magus.

    30' reach with chains, animate chains, 6xfull attacks, and whatever kind of touch/zap/murder spells you want.

    Is there a kyton template kicking around somewhere? (goes and looks for it)

    EDIT: Oh, duh. I ignored the "amalgam" part of it. For anyone interested, here's the Pathfinder version of the Amalgam template (originally from Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary).


    Lordjimbo wrote:

    An update: Having talked extensively with my group now they’ve revealed to me they’re epic ambitions which include some pretty far out stuff (rulership of the material plane, demilichdom, godhood). Having DMed this game level 1-17 and kept both balance and challenge pretty well in line this whole time I am ready for a game balance vacation. As such I am allowing both the 3.0 ELH and Deities and Demigods and also any crazy feats, spells, or templates they find or make up that they can convince me their characters have found a way to acquire (and now that I’m not real invested in game balance I’m pretty easy to convince, just tell me a good tale about why that wish spell should be able to turn you into a vampire who has absolutely no weaknesses and I’ll agree).

    If the players are pretty much just wanting to add super powers to the game, a decent way to keep things half-way balanced is to use the BESMd20 rules (either find a copy on ebay, or just use the d20 Anime SRD http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/animesrd.html )


    The ELH is broken. It tends to create characters who can kill a god in one action... I have never successfully run a game using the ELH. Either the epic monsters TPK the party or the epic level monsters die so quickly at the characters hands that you wonder how they survived up till that point.

    I use the Forgotten Realms rules for epic levels. pg 289 of the Campaign Guide. Although in addition to the four benefits listed there I allow a new feat to be selected as the benefit of an epic level. The ELH doesn't exist in my games... no running up waterfalls... standing on clouds... turning every NPC into a fanatical follower willing to throw away his/her own life for the mere chance they might get a brief smile from the PC... No epic spells that can shake the foundations of reality itself... need I go on?


    Eric Jarman wrote:


    If the players are pretty much just wanting to add super powers to the game, a decent way to keep things half-way balanced is to use the BESMd20 rules (either find a copy on ebay, or just use the d20 Anime SRD http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/animesrd.html )

    Interesting, thanks.


    Min2007 wrote:

    The ELH is broken. It tends to create characters who can kill a god in one action... I have never successfully run a game using the ELH. Either the epic monsters TPK the party or the epic level monsters die so quickly at the characters hands that you wonder how they survived up till that point.

    I use the Forgotten Realms rules for epic levels. pg 289 of the Campaign Guide. Although in addition to the four benefits listed there I allow a new feat to be selected as the benefit of an epic level. The ELH doesn't exist in my games... no running up waterfalls... standing on clouds... turning every NPC into a fanatical follower willing to throw away his/her own life for the mere chance they might get a brief smile from the PC... No epic spells that can shake the foundations of reality itself... need I go on?

    Lol yes I'm pretty much expecting a giant mess but like I said, extended epilogue. If nothing else I'll learn from personal experience what NOT to do next time this comes up. Like most fools no amount of wise advice will keep me from repeating the mistakes of more learned men. To Gbonehead, Prime Evil, Dorje and all the rest of you who actually know what your talking about you should know I am actually listening and filing all this advice away for future use=)


    you know i never encountered those kinds of problems with epic i had to plan the encounters well but i didn't have the whole one sided on one side or the other problem.

    Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

    Min2007 wrote:
    The ELH is broken. It tends to create characters who can kill a god in one action... I have never successfully run a game using the ELH. Either the epic monsters TPK the party or the epic level monsters die so quickly at the characters hands that you wonder how they survived up till that point.

    I've been running an epic campaign for 5 years. The characters have encountered creatures with divine rank 1 twice (avatars of the gods) and in one case had their ass handed to them, and in the other squeaked out a victory, but just barely.

    It all depends on how you run the game.


    I made no claim to being good at balancing encounters under the ELH. I simply used the listed CR and crossed my fingers. That's why I switched to the much more tame rules used in Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. It was easier to get my head around the capabilities of the combatants when they were tossing a meta-magicked ninth level spell instead of an epic spell intended to eliminate even the most paranoid target with a single casting or the +40 to your favorite stats epic boost which lasts 24 hours one of my players made.

    Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

    Min2007 wrote:
    I made no claim to being good at balancing encounters under the ELH. I simply used the listed CR and crossed my fingers. That's why I switched to the much more tame rules used in Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. It was easier to get my head around the capabilities of the combatants when they were tossing a meta-magicked ninth level spell instead of an epic spell intended to eliminate even the most paranoid target with a single casting or the +40 to your favorite stats epic boost which lasts 24 hours one of my players made.

    Yeah. That would be one of the reasons why we don't use epic spellcasting. I am curious about one thing, though - where did the PC get the time, cash and XP to actually develop spells using the epic spellcasting rules? Epic spells per RAW are insanely expensive to develop.

    I don't actually prohibit the players from researching spells - but given their time and cash constraints (and that they don't feel like burning thousands and thousands of XP), nobody has actually made the attempt. Now, in a monty haul sandbox campaign where both gold and time were freely available, I could definitely see epic spells being a problem; even then XP might be an issue.


    Look on the internet for the E6 or 'Epic 6' rules. Cap your game at level 20 but allow the players to buy new feats oinstead of leveling up as per the E6 Rules. You may need to make the XP costs a little more for the purchases since your playing at a level 20 cap instead of a level 6.

    Capping the characters at 20 puts it within the existing game system, while allowing new feats gives them some advancement options so they do not feel totally stagnated from a game mechanic advancement point of view.

    If you DO end up using the 3.5 Epic rules, be very, very careful how much XP and cash you let the players get. Epic spellcasting is limited primarily by those two 'currencies' in that system. Also, you may just want to write yourself a DM document on what is the absolute limit to mortal power is vis a vis magic and magic item creation, so you have a scale of what the players can EVER reach.

    Games work better with limits and boundaries to give the game scale and depth, but those limits and boundaries do not necessarily need to be known to the PC's (or ever even reached by them).

    Other than that, support the Epic/Mythic thread here on the boards so Paizo knows that folks DO want post level 20 game rule support.


    gbonehead wrote:


    I am curious about one thing, though - where did the PC get the time, cash and XP to actually develop spells using the epic spellcasting rules? Epic spells per RAW are insanely expensive to develop.

    I don't actually prohibit the players from researching spells - but given their time and cash constraints (and that they don't feel like burning thousands and thousands of XP), nobody has actually made the attempt. Now, in a monty haul sandbox campaign where both gold and time were freely available, I could definitely see epic spells being a problem; even then XP might be an issue.

    By high level planar travel becomes available. My players are clever and use planes where the time difference allows them to hop over complete a one month project in a few days of prime material time. And if you don't mind buying drawbacks you can buy down the spellcraft DCs by quite a bit. That makes the spells far less expensive to research. Heck I completed an epic spell in one day when I was a player by simply buying the spellcraft DC to zero. Mainly I did that to buy a way to ward myself from a suddenly back from the dead archvillian who had soul trapped me earlier in the game. I wanted NO repeats of that mess.

    Also I tend to hand out more treasure than the standard game assumes. So gold costs aren't normally an issue for my players. I balance this by restricting availability, but in the case of do-it-yourselfers this can backfire a bit.

    Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

    Min2007 wrote:
    gbonehead wrote:


    I am curious about one thing, though - where did the PC get the time, cash and XP to actually develop spells using the epic spellcasting rules? Epic spells per RAW are insanely expensive to develop.

    I don't actually prohibit the players from researching spells - but given their time and cash constraints (and that they don't feel like burning thousands and thousands of XP), nobody has actually made the attempt. Now, in a monty haul sandbox campaign where both gold and time were freely available, I could definitely see epic spells being a problem; even then XP might be an issue.

    By high level planar travel becomes available. My players are clever and use planes where the time difference allows them to hop over complete a one month project in a few days of prime material time. And if you don't mind buying drawbacks you can buy down the spellcraft DCs by quite a bit. That makes the spells far less expensive to research. Heck I completed an epic spell in one day when I was a player by simply buying the spellcraft DC to zero. Mainly I did that to buy a way to ward myself from a suddenly back from the dead archvillian who had soul trapped me earlier in the game. I wanted NO repeats of that mess.

    That's a misinterpretation of the epic spell rules, though. It took me a while to realize it, but the mitigating factors only apply to the final DC for the Spellcraft check to cast the spell. When you're researching/creating the spell, you're paying full XP, time and cash for it. And it's that XP part that really gets you in the long run.


    gbonehead wrote:

    That's a misinterpretation of the epic spell rules, though. It took me a while to realize it, but the mitigating factors only apply to the final DC for the Spellcraft check to cast the spell. When you're researching/creating the spell, you're paying full XP, time and cash for it. And it's that XP part that really gets you in the long run.

    The epic spells in the book themselves disagree with you. They are all priced according to their final DC, not the DC before mitigating factors.

    And the rules say the following:

    Quote:

    Resource Cost

    The development of an epic spell uses up raw materials costing a number of gold pieces equal to 9,000 × the final Spellcraft DC of the epic spell being developed.

    The time required and the XP needed are based on the resource cost, which the rules say is the final DC, not the DC before mitigating factors. So, by the rules, if you apply enough mitigating factors to your epic spell, the cost could be free, take no XP, and be researched instantly (if you get the DC down to 0). The epic spell rules are broken.

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Jeraa wrote:


    The time required and the XP needed are based on the resource cost, which the rules say is the final DC, not the DC before mitigating factors. So, by the rules, if you apply enough mitigating factors to your epic spell, the cost could be free, take no XP, and be researched instantly (if you get the DC down to 0). The epic spell rules are broken.

    Yes but it's generally impossible to get the costs mitigated to anywhere near that level.

    Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

    Jeraa wrote:
    gbonehead wrote:

    That's a misinterpretation of the epic spell rules, though. It took me a while to realize it, but the mitigating factors only apply to the final DC for the Spellcraft check to cast the spell. When you're researching/creating the spell, you're paying full XP, time and cash for it. And it's that XP part that really gets you in the long run.

    The epic spells in the book themselves disagree with you. They are all priced according to their final DC, not the DC before mitigating factors.

    Yeah! Where the heck did I see them used that way? Could have sworn it was in a WoTC book. Not that I'd be surprised if they contradicted themselves.

    (looks)

    Yep. I decided it was supposed to work that way after looking at the Raise Mythal example in Lost Empires of Faerun. What a shocker - the two examples (ELH and Lost Empires of Faerun) contradict each other.

    By the way, it's pretty easy to mitigate costs if (a) you don't care about casting time, (b) add backlash damage, and (c) you make it a ritual casting - every additional caster who can throw in an epic/9th level spell gives a -19/-17, every d6 of backlash is -1, and making it take 10 minutes to cast gives another -10. So with three epic casters, 10 minutes and a mere 40d6 backlash (only averages to 140hp damage) you're looking at -107 to the DC. And that's not even trying hard.

    It's harder to make inexpensive epic spells that are useful in combat, but I'm okay with that, given that you can metamagic the existing ones like crazy. Our wizard's favorite spell is a maximized repeating split-ray twinned disintegrate, though he's caught the party with it more than once (and one of those times, one of the characters rolled two 1s on saves :)


    Also don't forget it's a priority of any Epic caster to get their hands on a Rod(s) of Excellent Magic which give you 2000 reoccurring XP to play with as well during casting. That's another -20 right there.

    Epic spells are BROKEN. Period. Take a sharpie to that section of the book. Even Paizo's Words of Power are more balanced if used in normal play. If you really want to allow custom built "epic" spells I'd start with those rules.


    Dorje Sylas wrote:


    Epic spells are BROKEN. Period.

    Epic skills are broken too. Turning the King or Emperor into your personal slave by spending a round talking to him with epic diplomacy. Or walking across clouds or mist as if it were solid ground... which was epic balance if I remember correctly.

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