[Ultimate Magic] Four hands and multiweapon feat


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

A guy walks into a bar with four arms, two heads, two torsos, a tentacle, and wings.

No, not the start of a joke, this is a 6th level alchemist using Ultimate Magic (and a feat taken a couple of times from the APG). All of those appendages are extraordinary abilities—the alchemist always has them (though he can mostly hide the extra torso and head if he’d like).

I have two concerns with alchemists growing new appendages.

One, I’m only allowing a strict interpretation of Two-Weapon Fighting which allows one extra attack with an off hand (no matter how manner off hands you happen to have).

I could see a generous GM giving out an attack for each off hand, however, based on the multiweapon feat from the Bestiary. And then having an elf alchemist vivisectionist at 4th level attacking with flanking with a longsword and three shortswords and doing an extra 2d6 in sneak attack damage four times for a possible total damage of 1d8 plus 11d6.

My other concern with the extra appendages is it seems to go against the no monsters as PCs theme that Paizo is going with. Even having a goblin book for PCs was a big deal. But now I can have my PC go to the bar with Jon the alchemist and then the next night I see him he’s grown a third arm? Wouldn’t that cause Jon some challenges in a social sense?

I look at the Core Rulebook and I see high fantasy—elves and dwarves and quests against evil wizards and dragons. The APG added some horror elements in, but it all seemed to work together.

And Ultimate Magic mostly fits as well. But an alchemist with a twin sticking out of him and a tumor that with the right training jumps out and takes hits just doesn’t seem to fit—yet. I’m still trying to see how it will all work together seamlessly. I hope.

Anyone else struggling with both the rules of using four arms as well as the changes to how most PCs look and act in a roleplaying sense?

I'd love to hear the design reasons behind adding in a rule to allow an alchemist to grow new appendages and how the rules should work for four weapon fighting.


The way I see it, Vivisectionists and Alchemists with the tumor and twin discoveries are kind of like Summoners who choose for their Eidolon to manifest as a horrifying Eldritch Abomination, or Witches who, through a combination of hexes listed in UM and APG, can smell out children, compel them to follow to her hidden hut, and then boil them in a cauldron.

That is, the role they fill is similar. These things are probably intended as creepy, perhaps the character with them is at least slightly mad. Respected, possibly out of fear, or due to their prowess. If they're adventurers, maybe their prowess is a reason they are valued. Assets outweigh liabilities. Or they're somewhat crazy. At least one trait out of slight craziness, romanticist ideals, or staunch dedication to a cause are practically REQUIRED as part of the adventurer mindset, given all that it entails.

Besides, while maybe it seems to go against the grain some, it's good to step away from the pigeonholing involved in that high fantasy "Elves and Dwarves fighting evil Wizards" stuff. I bet Paizo looked at the Core Book and realized that it DID seem to tend a bit heavily towards that kind of stereotype, and so, decided that, in order to encourage uniqueness and flexibility, they should step away from that a bit, as they have done in the APG and UM with the Alchemist, Witch, and Inquisitor stuff, and as they are definitely doing with UC with the Eastern-inspired additions and, well, guns, and slingers of them.


Charles Dunwoody wrote:
...Bunch of stuff...

For concern the first:

Vestigial Arm Discovery:

Quote:


Vestigial Arm (Ex): The alchemist gains a new arm (left or
right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and
cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing.
The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or
actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon
and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine
(using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or
hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms (for
example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield
a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third
hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and
“ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still
only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time).
An alchemist may take this discovery up to two times.

I am sure this says it does not give any extra attacks or actions. It does not allow you to do anything but hold an extra something. Though maybe you could wield two two-handed weapons, one with your normal hands and one with the twin (which gives 2 arms).

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Avianfoo wrote:
Charles Dunwoody wrote:
...Bunch of stuff...

For concern the first:

** spoiler omitted **

I am sure this says it does not give any extra attacks or actions. It does not allow you to do anything but hold an extra something. Though maybe you could wield two two-handed weapons, one with your normal hands and one with the twin (which gives 2 arms).

The arm itself does not give an extra attack, true. But it does say it CAN be used with Two-Weapon Fighting. And Multiweapon replaces Two-Weapon Fighting (the feat) for creatures with 3 or more arms. That feat isn't clear whether it allows extra attacks beyond the one extra that Two Weapon Fighting provides in the CRB.

As to using two greatswords, the arms don't work that way because Two Weapon Fighting requires either one weapon in each hand or a double weapon. A GM could house rule this, but I'd think the penalties to attack would be great.

Basically, I feel the devs should have had a sidebar explaining four weapon fighting. Four arms is a big change to the PF rules and explanation is going to be needed.


Charles Dunwoody wrote:

That feat isn't clear whether it allows extra attacks beyond the one extra that Two Weapon Fighting provides in the CRB.

It does say it does not allow more attacks than normal. You can use it for two weapon fighting but all that means to me is that you can't use your "normal" off-hand for two weapon fighting. Maybe you can change between your off-hand weapons but it still specifically states you get no more attacks or actions than normal.

Also, as much as I would like to take Multiweapon fighting, I believe PCs cannot take monster feats.

Dark Archive

Multiweapon Fighting is no more a monster feat than Craft Construct. And didn't Ultimate Magic contain lots of additional options for Craft Construct?


Jadeite wrote:
Multiweapon Fighting is no more a monster feat than Craft Construct. And didn't Ultimate Magic contain lots of additional options for Craft Construct?
Quote:
Monster Feats:Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters, although some player characters might qualify for them (particularly Craft Construct)

I stand corrected. But usually these are "check with your GM" feats.

Liberty's Edge

The discovery specifically states that it can not grant any additional attacks. It then grants a single circumstance that is an exception to the rule.

Your worry is not part of that single circumstance. Therefore the general rule (no extra attacks) is followed.

Dark Archive

Quote:
The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting).

The extra arms of an eidolon grant no extra attacks either (unlike tentacles). That does not stop the eidolon from using them to wield weapons.

Any character with three or more hands and a dexterity of 13 qualifies for Multiweapon Fighting.
The arm does not grant extra attacks. Multiweapon Fighting does.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

ShadowcatX wrote:

The discovery specifically states that it can not grant any additional attacks. It then grants a single circumstance that is an exception to the rule.

Your worry is not part of that single circumstance. Therefore the general rule (no extra attacks) is followed.

I think it was written to allow a three armed alchemist to go sword/sword/shield, or sword/bomb/wand (though in the later, he can't activate the wand and attack)

Liberty's Edge

Since the Alchimist has 3 arms, he can take Multiweapon Fighting. The penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are thus lessened.

Note that Multiweapon Fighting in no way gives you an extra attack.

Since your third arm does not give you any extra attack per se, the only way to get said extra attack is to use the two weapon fighting rule. And in such a case, your off-hand can be any of your 2 arms which are not primary.

What this allows which is not possible for characters with 2 arms is that you can use two-weapon fighting with a two-handed weapon and a 1-handed or Light weapon. Thankfully, the way two-weapon fighting is worded covers this situation.

And if you take it twice and have 4 arms, you can use two-weapon fighting with 2 two-handed weapons. And once again, the wording of two-weapon fighting in the CRB (page 202) covers it. And it is consistent with MultiWeapon Fighting.

Silver Crusade

Charles Dunwoody wrote:
A guy walks into a bar with four arms, two heads, two torsos, a tentacle, and wings.

"AAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!! Burn the abomination!"

Problem solved :)

Shadow Lodge

Can someone confirm if using 4 arms (take vestigial arms twice) with two 2-handed weapons, using TWF is kosher?

Are we still looking at a -4, -4 penalty here (assuming neither weapon is light)?

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