Group Research: Empyreal Lords Beyond the Inner Sea World Guide


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

Contributor

The Inner Sea World Guide presents six empyreal lords. PathfinderWiki notes three more: Ashave the True Spark, Shei Five Dawns, and Soralyon. Details on Shei cites PF #28. Anyone have sources on the other two?

Dark Archive

Nope sorry.

Now that I have been helpfully unhelpful. I have to ask, you work at paizo shouldn't you know? :)

Contributor

Dark_Mistress wrote:
Now that I have been helpfully unhelpful. I have to ask, you work at paizo shouldn't you know? :)

Seriously? :P

Normally I'd ask our continuity manager, but he's off gadding about on the east coast for some such reason.

Contributor

Looks like Shei Five Dawns isn't referenced as an empyreal lord at all, but rather a decapitated servant of Sinashakti. So that's one down.


I think some of them were from the old campaign setting of the other sources on the wiki. I also remember the product description of faiths of purity saying something about emperyal lords.


F. Wesley Schneider wrote:
The Inner Sea World Guide presents six empyreal lords. PathfinderWiki notes three more: Ashave the True Spark, Shei Five Dawns, and Soralyon. Details on Shei cites PF #28. Anyone have sources on the other two?

Ashave and Soralyon are mentioned in a variety of online sources as entities with cults in Magnimar. My guess (since my RotRL volumes are in storage) would be to check PF #2.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut

PF #2, p. 59 wrote:
"Tradition and local legends surrounding the Arvensoar have also attracted a number of celestial mystery cults, which practice strange rituals outside the public eye. Assemblies devoted to the empyreal lords Soralyon, Ashava the True Spark, and the Horseman of War are all known to gather in the city."

Contributor

There it is. Pathfinder #2, page 59, Religion: "Assemblies devoted to the empyreal lords Soralyon, Ashava the True Spark, and the Horseman of War are all known to gather in the city." Nice.

Dark Mistress will love this, I actually wrote that sentence. :P

Thanks Jeff!

[Update] And Neil!


F. Wesley Schneider wrote:

There it is. Pathfinder #2, page 59, Religion: "Assemblies devoted to the empyreal lords Soralyon, Ashava the True Spark, and the Horseman of War are all known to gather in the city." Nice.

Dark Mistress will love this, I actually wrote that sentence. :P

Thanks Jeff!

[Update] And Neil!

You might want to work on your punctuation. As written, it suggests the group empyreal lords includes all of Soralyon, Ashava the True Spark and the Horseman of War. What you probably wanted was:

"Assemblies devoted to the empyreal lords, Soralyon, Ashava the True Spark, and the Horseman of War are all known to gather in the city."

Which in turn suggests that the empyreal lords have their own cult, and that Soralyon, Ashava and the Horseman of War are all separate entities.

Dark Archive

F. Wesley Schneider wrote:

There it is. Pathfinder #2, page 59, Religion: "Assemblies devoted to the empyreal lords Soralyon, Ashava the True Spark, and the Horseman of War are all known to gather in the city." Nice.

Dark Mistress will love this, I actually wrote that sentence. :P

Thanks Jeff!

[Update] And Neil!

See I was right, you should have known. :D

Contributor

pad300 wrote:

You might want to work on your punctuation. As written, it suggests the group empyreal lords includes all of Soralyon, Ashava the True Spark and the Horseman of War. What you probably wanted was:

"Assemblies devoted to the empyreal lords, Soralyon, Ashava the True Spark, and the Horseman of War are all known to gather in the city."

Which in turn suggests that the empyreal lords have their own cult, and that Soralyon, Ashava and the Horseman of War are all separate entities.

Wow, internet comment blindside! :)

But no.

When this was written and the first Pathfinder wasn't even out yet, I was intending all four of the Horsemen to be empyreal lords. Obviously after further discussion we didn't take that route, but at the time, that was the idea. The sentence, as a list of a new group called "empyreal lords" (very likely my first mention of these beings), conveys my intentions as intended both creatively and grammatically.

Contributor

Dark_Mistress wrote:
See I was right, you should have known. :D

True story!

Like I can be trusted to keep track of all the foolishness that falls out of my mouth and keyboard. Who knows what trouble they might get into once their loose. I think I'm going to start adding the following disclaimer to everything I write: "The words and opinions of F. Wesley Schneider do not necessarily reflect the words or opinions of F. Wesley Schneider." :P


F. Wesley Schneider wrote:
pad300 wrote:

You might want to work on your punctuation. As written, it suggests the group empyreal lords includes all of Soralyon, Ashava the True Spark and the Horseman of War. What you probably wanted was:

"Assemblies devoted to the empyreal lords, Soralyon, Ashava the True Spark, and the Horseman of War are all known to gather in the city."

Which in turn suggests that the empyreal lords have their own cult, and that Soralyon, Ashava and the Horseman of War are all separate entities.

Wow, internet comment blindside! :)

But no.

When this was written and the first Pathfinder wasn't even out yet, I was intending all four of the Horsemen to be empyreal lords. Obviously after further discussion we didn't take that route, but at the time, that was the idea. The sentence, as a list of a new group called "empyreal lords" (very likely my first mention of these beings), conveys my intentions as intended both creatively and grammatically.

Sorry, I'm taking too many Rhetoric classes right now. (Any is too many, really...). It's kinda cool to find out that what are currently the lords of all things angelic originally included all of the Four Horsemen of the apocalypse. What were the original empyreal lords supposed to be in charge of?

Dark Archive

I still find it giggly funny that you was looking for information about something you wrote. :)

Contributor

pad300 wrote:
What were the original empyreal lords supposed to be in charge of?

Pretty much the same things they're in charge of now. The shtick with them is basically "Hey, demon lords are cool. Lets have demon lords for good guys." Back then I was thinking that since the Four Horsemen were Heaven's bad-asses we might include them among the demigods of the good-aligned planes. Their role in mythology doesn't mesh terribly well with Pathfinder's alignment system though. So rather than play in the game's nonexistent moral gray area we made the call to make them the bosses of the daemons. That way they still get a place of prominence in the cosmology, and you can still have hardcore clerics of the Horseman of XXX, but the alignment pendulum swung back toward evil.

As for why I'm asking about these specific empyreal lords... I'm sure it's only academic curiosity. ^_~

Contributor

Dark_Mistress wrote:
I still find it giggly funny that you was looking for information about something you wrote. :)

:P

Sczarni

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber
Dark_Mistress wrote:
I still find it giggly funny that you was looking for information about something you wrote. :)

I just love the proof that you guys use the wiki :)

Dark Archive

F. Wesley Schneider wrote:
the Four Horsemen were Heaven's bad-asses we might include them among the demigods of the good-aligned planes.

We so need a group of Empyreals or whatever that are 'Heaven's bad-asses.'

Why should the NPCs get all the fun demigods?


Set wrote:
F. Wesley Schneider wrote:
the Four Horsemen were Heaven's bad-asses we might include them among the demigods of the good-aligned planes.

We so need a group of Empyreals or whatever that are 'Heaven's bad-asses.'

Why should the NPCs get all the fun demigods?

Dang it. I just wrote a mini essay on good-aligned badasses. Got eaten by a timeout...

Anyway. In Judeo-Chistian-Islamic myth we have the archangels, like Michael, Uriel, and Raphael. They are generally pretty fierce. The best, naturally, is Azazel, angel of death, though the Christians weren't sure about him.

In Tantric Buddhism we have the wrathful dieties, venerated across Asia under various names. They are converted dangerous entities, including Dakinis, Asuras and Rakshasas, who punish and terrorize the enemies of the Dharma. They are also pretty sensual in their relationship to the student of the left-handed path.

Apollo and Athena were pretty grim to the wicked. Apollo so much so that he became Apollyon, the Destroyer (and a PF Horseman) in late Classical texts and Christian thought. Apollyon appears in the Chansons as a "Paynim" god.

Like the medieval and renaissance church, D&D generally had an ambigious relationship to these figures. Kali becomes CE, despite her greatest deeds being the destruction of world-threatening Asuras. No ultimate god overshadows Greyhawk, since such a figure would have to be held accountable for the independent actions of the evil gods and Outsiders. Thus the Horsemen, who are as Wesley stated, G*d's badasses, part of his plan for the Apocalypse, become evil, since a omplex G*d with both unknowably terrible aspects and a loving nature is a bit much for a casual fantasy game or pulp literature. I suspect Lovecraft's alien gods are ultimately derived from the bloodthirsty and cruel G*d of his Puritan heritage as much as from the unknowingness of science and modern war.

But, as for heavenly badasses... more please?

Contributor

Totally. Currently that's the role Ragathiel is meant to fill (LG with the Destruction domain!). Do we need more?

Definitely.

I'll see what I can do about that.

Contributor

Cpt_kirstov wrote:
I just love the proof that you guys use the wiki :)

Frequently! Turns out, there's a lot of Golarion words out there to keep track of and every bit of help... uh... helps.

Contributor

F. Wesley Schneider wrote:

Totally. Currently that's the role Ragathiel is meant to fill (LG with the Destruction domain!). Do we need more?

Definitely.

I'll see what I can do about that.

My $0.02 infernal coppers.

Lets also get some clarification on if the so-far-named Empyreal Lords are in effect exalted versions or paragons of known celestial races, or if they're unique beings with no particular association with (for instance) types of archons, types of agathions, etc. The flavor has been a bit hazy on the topic at times when referring to Empyreal Lords versus some of the various named/important/lords among various celestial races and subraces.

Dark Archive

F. Wesley Schneider wrote:
Normally I'd ask our continuity manager, but he's off gadding about on the east coast for some such reason.

Is he in New York as the Herald of The Mona ?

F. Wesley Schneider wrote:
When this was written and the first Pathfinder wasn't even out yet, I was intending all four of the Horsemen to be empyreal lords.

NOW THERE'S AN IDEA ! Maybe Todd can play with that one a little ... or should I say twist it around?

Contributor

Todd Stewart wrote:
Words, words, words...

The deal here is not dissimilar to demon lords or archdevils, wherein the demigod typically hails from a specific extraplanar race and reaches a point of such influence and power that it takes the step from being just a powerful member of its race to being a full-on divinity. In the case of most individuals this means they stop being a pit fiend or a balor or an asura or whatever and become a unique individual. Such is the same with empyreal lords, except that this term is a catchall for the majority of good-aligned demigods - largely existing because of a willingness to cooperate and goals that cross alignment and racial boundaries. Usually an empyreal lord's former race doesn't matter for much more than trivia, unless its description establishes some tie. If it's important that this former race be known, nine out of ten times you can bet the empyreal lord was a member of an outsider exemplar race that matches its alignment (usually meaning LG = archons, NG = angels or agathions, CG = azatas).

Sometimes, though, this isn't the case and the empyreal lord comes from elsewhere. Maybe it's a mortal granted a measure of godly power by a patron deity or other wonder. Maybe its a powerful member of another exemplar race that had some miraculous change of heart. Maybe it's a wholly unique being. It's the multiverse, weird stuff happens.

In any case, there's like maybe two pages worth of established canon regarding all of the empyreal lords. For now, specifics on the whole are pretty light. But such will not always be the case... probably.

Dark Archive

Jeff de luna wrote:
In Judeo-Chistian-Islamic myth we have the archangels, like Michael, Uriel, and Raphael. They are generally pretty fierce. The best, naturally, is Azazel, angel of death, though the Christians weren't sure about him.

Don't forget Metatron (Hebrew מטטרון) , Christians are not too sure about him too but in the Rabbinic tradition, he is the highest of the angels, and Alan Rickman played him, that has to count fo r something.

edit: Up late Wes ?

Contributor

baron arem heshvaun wrote:
Is he in New York as the Herald of The Mona ?

Nah. Some such other foolishness. Jewelry is involved. To each his own.

baron arem heshvaun wrote:
NOW THERE'S AN IDEA ! Maybe Todd can play with that one a little ... or should I say twist it around?

We've taken a pretty serious detour from my initial ramblings into something I feel works better within the context of the game. I still think it's a snazzy idea, but just doesn't work for Golarion. I'm sure Todd has his own delusions and nightmares aplenty to work out in his writing without cribbing from mine. :P

Contributor

baron arem heshvaun wrote:
edit: Up late Wes ?

Been waiting for a fashionably late Rapture. Didn't want to sleep through it.

Dark Archive

F. Wesley Schneider wrote:
Dark_Mistress wrote:
I still find it giggly funny that you was looking for information about something you wrote. :)
:P

Wes, didn't I warn you that I always cast 'Curse of the Eroding Mind' on everyone who says my beard "stinks of brimstone"? Or perhaps you've spent too much time with Mairkurion and Mona; that dementia might be catching, you know? ;P

(by the way, if I haven't yet complimented you on 'Rule of Fear', it's absolutely amazing, from smallest details to town/city maps! Really great work! :))

Contributor

Asgetrion wrote:
Wes, didn't I warn you that I always cast 'Curse of the Eroding Mind' on everyone who says my beard "stinks of brimstone"? Or perhaps you've spent too much time with Mairkurion and Mona; that dementia might be catching, you know? ;P

I hope that's the case and it's not just more evidence of my traitorously deteriorating mind and body. (Can you tell I turned 30 a few months back? [Can you tell I vomited in my mouth a little as I wrote that?])

Asgetrion wrote:
(by the way, if I haven't yet complimented you on 'Rule of Fear', it's absolutely amazing, from smallest details to town/city maps! Really great work! :))

Yay! Thanks a ton! Another 100 pages would have been too little for me to get everything I wanted to say about Ustalav out, but fortunately I had Carrion Crown to catch a lot of the spillover. ;)

Glad you're enjoying!

Dark Archive

F. Wesley Schneider wrote:
baron arem heshvaun wrote:
edit: Up late Wes ?
Been waiting for a fashionably late Rapture. Didn't want to sleep through it.

They pushed it back. Peter Jackson still needs time to film the Hobbit and God wants to see how that turns out. He hopes that there is no Jar Jar equivalent in the movie or its all Sodom and Gomorrah for all us wretches

Dark Archive

For Wes:

As far back as 1st Edition (when there were but a few Archdevils, demon prices and one Oinodaemon) I always hoped for singular angels (solars or plantars) who were the antithesis or direct polar opposites of the named evil fiends. For every lost soul there was a shinning point of light.

But when 2nd Ed came out, The Blood War sort of dashed any hopes for that because the fiend worst enemies turned out to be other fiends.

Maybe Golarion can have something along those lines.

Contributor

baron arem heshvaun wrote:
Maybe Golarion can have something along those lines.

In general concept: totally.

Contributor

F. Wesley Schneider wrote:
baron arem heshvaun wrote:
Maybe Golarion can have something along those lines.
In general concept: totally.

Might not relate to what you're poking at here, but there were three or four instances in the recent daemon-ey manuscript I turned in that involve celestials or important named ones or might be connected to them. They may or may not survive development of course to be in the final book, but if it's important, I can email you what it is I'm talking around. ;)

Dark Archive

I'd be particularly interested in anything related to Ragathiel.
I have a friend who's playing a paladin of this Empyreal Lord, and I have woefully few details to feed him for background (I'm building up on the "reformed powerful outsider" concept, considering his parents).

Dark Archive

F. Wesley Schneider wrote:
Asgetrion wrote:
Wes, didn't I warn you that I always cast 'Curse of the Eroding Mind' on everyone who says my beard "stinks of brimstone"? Or perhaps you've spent too much time with Mairkurion and Mona; that dementia might be catching, you know? ;P

I hope that's the case and it's not just more evidence of my traitorously deteriorating mind and body. (Can you tell I turned 30 a few months back? [Can you tell I vomited in my mouth a little as I wrote that?])

Asgetrion wrote:
(by the way, if I haven't yet complimented you on 'Rule of Fear', it's absolutely amazing, from smallest details to town/city maps! Really great work! :))

Yay! Thanks a ton! Another 100 pages would have been too little for me to get everything I wanted to say about Ustalav out, but fortunately I had Carrion Crown to catch a lot of the spillover. ;)

Glad you're enjoying!

HA, mere 30! You're but a stripling compared to us old dwarven wisebeards! And yet you've managed to impress me, young Wes! ;P


Jeff de luna wrote:

Dang it. I just wrote a mini essay on good-aligned badasses. Got eaten by a timeout...

Anyway. In Judeo-Chistian-Islamic myth we have the archangels, like Michael, Uriel, and Raphael. They are generally pretty fierce. The best, naturally, is Azazel, angel of death, though the Christians weren't sure about him.

Wasn't that Azrael? As far as I know Azazel is vague, more demonic being (possibly orginally related to concept of scapegoat in Jewish lore). I haven't ever come upon any source that would link them in any way.


Drejk wrote:
Jeff de luna wrote:

Dang it. I just wrote a mini essay on good-aligned badasses. Got eaten by a timeout...

Anyway. In Judeo-Chistian-Islamic myth we have the archangels, like Michael, Uriel, and Raphael. They are generally pretty fierce. The best, naturally, is Azazel, angel of death, though the Christians weren't sure about him.

Wasn't that Azrael? As far as I know Azazel is vague, more demonic being (possibly orginally related to concept of scapegoat in Jewish lore). I haven't ever come upon any source that would link them in any way.

Oops. Yep. I typo'd it when I rewrote the post from memory. Azrael is sometimes equated with Iblis, but not always. So he's of uncertain loyalties in Islam, as well... Thanks for the spell check :)

One thing that got skipped over when I wrote it was the notion of redeemed bad guys in the wrathful deities idea. Also they look pretty fierce. Some good outsiders with monstrous faces would be pretty cool. I seem to recall that the real appearance of gods (a la Zeus) or the angels could cause insanity, blindness, or death as well.


Jeff de luna wrote:
One thing that got skipped over when I wrote it was the notion of redeemed bad guys in the wrathful deities idea. Also they look pretty fierce. Some good outsiders with monstrous faces would be pretty cool. I seem to recall that the real appearance of gods (a la Zeus) or the angels could cause insanity, blindness, or death as well.

Azrael (like many other Jewish/Old Testament angels) seems to be more of Lawful Evil or Lawful extremaly fanatical Neutral.

There is Muslim story of him at the end of time when Allah will send him to take lives of all things living and he will return from that quest and Allah will ask him if he did kill all living things and Azra'il will reply that he has not fulfilled his task yet, that one living entity still remains and then will kill oneself.


golem101 wrote:

I'd be particularly interested in anything related to Ragathiel.

I have a friend who's playing a paladin of this Empyreal Lord, and I have woefully few details to feed him for background (I'm building up on the "reformed powerful outsider" concept, considering his parents).

I'm in the same boat with my inquisitor of Andoletta.


Lilith wrote:
golem101 wrote:

I'd be particularly interested in anything related to Ragathiel.

I have a friend who's playing a paladin of this Empyreal Lord, and I have woefully few details to feed him for background (I'm building up on the "reformed powerful outsider" concept, considering his parents).
I'm in the same boat with my inquisitor of Andoletta.

Grandmother Crow kind of appeals to me... I always wondered, however, why the citizens of Irrisen fear crows so much if an Empyreal Lady consorts with them.

I also like the crow girls in de Lint's Someplace to be Flying. Corvids are cool. A month ago I went to the park with my daughter and a large raven landed nearby and kept us company (not in an ominous, carrion bird way-- more like, "I'm pretty curious about you. Anything to eat?").

Dark Archive

The Irrisen thing is unclear. When I first read about the setting, I envisioned a local nature demigod sort, perhaps originally a servant of Erastil who was a Master of the Wild Hunt figure, and ended up being bound into Baba Yaga's service, his original 'Wild Hunt' replaced with Winter Wolves.

Perhaps the crows / ravens are leftover remnants of some other regional power's servants or symbol, co-opted to Baba Yaga's designs with it's defeat / imprisonment / subversion. Snowy owls or even seagulls would better suit the arctic nature.

Irrisen's perplexing anyway. All of the vegetation is dead or dormant, and yet herds of caribou apparently still can survive (travelling across the country from the Linnorm Kings lands, according to the World Guide). Do they eat snow? Each other? (A losing proposition, calorically...)

There's a whole lotta something going on there that hasn't been explained in the campaign setting yet. The endless winter thing has pretty much demolished the food chain, and yet there's enough meat to support armies of trolls (and winter wolves). Given how much trolls eat, if it was the original human population they were eating, they would have run out decades ago, and be in a constant state of expansion into neighboring countries, having wrecked their own ecosystems ability to generate new vegetation, to support herds of prey herbivores.

Jeff de luna wrote:
Corvids are cool. A month ago I went to the park with my daughter and a large raven landed nearby and kept us company (not in an ominous, carrion bird way-- more like, "I'm pretty curious about you. Anything to eat?").

Despite being an hour inland, our town used to be swarming with seagulls. You'd sit outside at McDonalds, and the especially brazen ones would land on the table and try to steal your food.

About five or ten years back, crows moved in, and over the course of a year of bullying them and raiding their nests and smashing their eggs, took over and ran the gulls out of town. It was like something out of a Mafia playbook (only even more brutal).

I don't miss the seagulls, but gosh, I've never seen such organized and effective thuggery by animals!

That aside, I love how they can be trained to pick up trash in exchange for food, or even collect loose coins they find on the ground for peanuts. Cool stuff.


Jeff de luna wrote:
Grandmother Crow kind of appeals to me... I always wondered, however, why the citizens of Irrisen fear crows so much if an Empyreal Lady consorts with them.

Much like Grandmother Crow's followers, the witches of Irrisen use them as little spies, so people living in Irrisen have a more negative view of them.

Yeah, Grandmother Crow is neat. Nice old lady who will bake you cookies, but smack you over the head with a stick if you get out of line.


baron arem heshvaun wrote:
Is he in New York as the Herald of The Mona?

Fool! Do not invoke the Devourer by name, lest you draw his attention!

Dark Archive

Todd Stewart wrote:
F. Wesley Schneider wrote:
baron arem heshvaun wrote:
Maybe Golarion can have something along those lines.
In general concept: totally.
Might not relate to what you're poking at here, but there were three or four instances in the recent daemon-ey manuscript I turned in that involve celestials or important named ones or might be connected to them. They may or may not survive development of course to be in the final book, but if it's important, I can email you what it is I'm talking around. ;)

Todd the Laughing Cell Biologist: I have had the pleasure of reading your many writings from Planescape to a plethora of articles and mussings on the interwebs for many years now. In spite of myself and sane thinking, I have clear memories of leaving the light on when I go to bed and a time when I had looked behind my shoulder in airport terminals because I had been reading one of your earlier material between flights (in that instance it was about a Baernoloth who was pain incarnate). Your treaties on fiends and thier progenitors have been at times too much even for a jaded grognard. That sir is as high a compliment as I can think of in these matters.

So please email away,

Spoiler:
imperial(dot)advisor(at)gmail(dot)com


baron arem heshvaun wrote:


So please email away,

** spoiler omitted **

*blush* The offer was for Wes :)

Everyone else has to wait till the book is out (and if stuff gets cut, the cut stuff may be released if Paizo is cool with it). ;)

Dark Archive

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