[Ultimate Magic] Toppling Spell + Spell Specialization + Magic Missle


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

Say I have a 3rd level human wizard who has taken Spell Focus (Evocation), Spell Specialization (Magic Missle) and the Toppling Spell Metamagic feat.

Now If he were to prepare his Toppling Magic Missle his Caster Level would be 5 (3+2 from Specialization) and he would cast 3 missles if I'm understanding it correctly. The problem I have is with the toppling part. Would each missle have an opportunity to trip it's target with a +10 trip bonus? For the sake of arguement pretend he has a 20 int.

Toppling Spell:
Benefit: The impact of your force spell is strong enough to knock the target prone. If the target takes damage, fails its saving throw, or is moved by your force spell, make a trip check against the target, using your caster level plus your casting ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, Intelligence for wizards, and so on). This does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If the check fails, the target cannot attempt to trip you or the force effect in response.

A toppling spell only affects spells with the force descriptor. A toppling spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.

Spell Specialization:
Prerequisites: Int 13, Spell Focus.

Benefit: Select one spell of a school for which you have taken the Spell Focus feat. Treat your caster level as being two higher for all level-variable effects of the spell.

Every time you gain an even level in the spellcasting class you chose your spell from, you can choose a new spell to replace the spell selected with this feat, and that spell becomes your specialized spell.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different spell.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
obadiah wrote:

Say I have a 3rd level human wizard who has taken Spell Focus (Evocation), Spell Specialization (Magic Missle) and the Toppling Spell Metamagic feat.

Now If he were to prepare his Toppling Magic Missle his Caster Level would be 5 (3+2 from Specialization) and he would cast 3 missles if I'm understanding it correctly. The problem I have is with the toppling part. Would each missle have an opportunity to trip it's target with a +10 trip bonus? For the sake of arguement pretend he has a 20 int.
** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

Plus Effing One.

EDIT: yes it seems that way.


obadiah wrote:

Say I have a 3rd level human wizard who has taken Spell Focus (Evocation), Spell Specialization (Magic Missle) and the Toppling Spell Metamagic feat.

Now If he were to prepare his Toppling Magic Missle his Caster Level would be 5 (3+2 from Specialization) and he would cast 3 missles if I'm understanding it correctly. The problem I have is with the toppling part. Would each missle have an opportunity to trip it's target with a +10 trip bonus? For the sake of arguement pretend he has a 20 int.
** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

Well that seems to be the case. I becomes a quite good control spell, which could be ridiculously good at low levels. It basically gives magic missile one of the uses of telekinesis, but applicable to multiple opponents.


That is how I interpreted it to work. Lets you use a 2nd lvl spell slot to try and trip 5 different creatures, once you hit 9th level. Considering how few force spells there are, this doesn't bother me all that much.


Oh, and it seems to me that it is particularly awesome with Force Hook Charge. Dash to an enemies side, trip them and THEN get to take your attacks. Nice!


Hm... could be good with magical lineage(magic missile) honestly.


Don't forget to use Lore Seeker (Magic Missile) and Magical Lineage (Magic Missile)!

...ninja'd? D:


The Chort wrote:

Don't forget to use Lore Seeker (Magic Missile) and Magical Lineage (Magic Missile)!

...ninja'd? D:

Lore Seeker is specifically a campaign trait... not something that is automatically available (not that traits are as a whole anyways but) -- I wouldn't rely on it being there.


I also interpreted it as affecting one target per missile...though if the caster chose to only affect one target, I would not allow 5 trip attempts.


Volaran wrote:
I also interpreted it as affecting one target per missile...though if the caster chose to only affect one target, I would not allow 5 trip attempts.

I agree.


Add Gifted Adept (Magic Missile) and now you're at CL+3+Stat to trip. Very nice.


Is this a legitimate way to trip a ghost? :D

You are burning feats to get there, so I guess that evens it out and risks turning your caster into a one-trick pony. One of my players wanted to play a "magic missile specialist" in 3.x, using some of the 3pp and Dragon Mag rules that affected Force spells (I think one was a Force Mage PrC, maybe?) This will be right up her alley.


Doc_Outlands wrote:

Is this a legitimate way to trip a ghost? :D

You are burning feats to get there, so I guess that evens it out and risks turning your caster into a one-trick pony. One of my players wanted to play a "magic missile specialist" in 3.x, using some of the 3pp and Dragon Mag rules that affected Force spells (I think one was a Force Mage PrC, maybe?) This will be right up her alley.

Hey, Force Missile Mage was a cool prestige class, especially if you slapped on Born of the Three Thunders on top of it. 7 opponents could be stunned and knocked prone from a single spell. Was especially helpful with a feat (who's name I can remember) that let you break down a higher level spell slot into multiple lower level spell slots. (Heros of Ruin Forgotten Realms book?)


Oh man, this is a glorious combination with magical lineage (:

I'm so stealing this idea. . .

Shadow Lodge

InfoStorm wrote:
Doc_Outlands wrote:

Is this a legitimate way to trip a ghost? :D

You are burning feats to get there, so I guess that evens it out and risks turning your caster into a one-trick pony. One of my players wanted to play a "magic missile specialist" in 3.x, using some of the 3pp and Dragon Mag rules that affected Force spells (I think one was a Force Mage PrC, maybe?) This will be right up her alley.

Hey, Force Missile Mage was a cool prestige class, especially if you slapped on Born of the Three Thunders on top of it. 7 opponents could be stunned and knocked prone from a single spell. Was especially helpful with a feat (who's name I can remember) that let you break down a higher level spell slot into multiple lower level spell slots. (Heros of Ruin Forgotten Realms book?)

Split spell exists in Ultimate Magic lets you turn a 3rd level slot into 2 1st level slots.

Sczarni

Combine this with:

Varisian Tattoo (Evocation)

or

Magical Lineage

Spell Perfection

Quicken Spell

and you have a Swift Action "Telekinesis" Trip that also happens to deal 1d4+1 to up to 5 targets, for the low, low cost of pretty much all your feats & a 5th level spell slot.

Nice combo.


psionichamster wrote:

Combine this with:

Varisian Tattoo (Evocation)

or

Magical Lineage

Spell Perfection

Quicken Spell

and you have a Swift Action "Telekinesis" Trip that also happens to deal 1d4+1 to up to 5 targets, for the low, low cost of pretty much all your feats & a 5th level spell slot.

Nice combo.

Um... Why is it using up a fifth level slot?

Magical Lineage(Magic Missile)
Precious Apprentice(Magic Missile)

Spell Focus(evocation)
Toppling Spell
Varisian Tattoo
Spell Perfection
Quicken Spell

Spell perfection the quicken spell, magical lineage the toppling spell for a 1st level spell slot that does 1d4+1 damage to five targets that also trips them as a swift action.

Sczarni

Ah...I was wrong in thinking Spell Perfection just dropped the level adjustment by 1. Since it drops it entirely, that's even groovier.

Now I gotta make this guy as an NPC for my Kingmaker game, using a dedicated Evoker with a Ring of Wizardy 1.

hehe


psionichamster wrote:

Ah...I was wrong in thinking Spell Perfection just dropped the level adjustment by 1. Since it drops it entirely, that's even groovier.

Now I gotta make this guy as an NPC for my Kingmaker game, using a dedicated Evoker with a Ring of Wizardy 1.

hehe

Use pathfinder society wizard rules and it's even worse:

Human Evoker(magical lineage(magic missile))
B -- Spell Focus(evocation)
1 -- Varisian Tattoo(evocation)
h -- Toppling Spell

Almost a shame to not have that other trait to get precious apprentice so you have 2 missiles at first level.


What about Spell Specialization?

Sczarni

Abraham spalding wrote:
psionichamster wrote:

Ah...I was wrong in thinking Spell Perfection just dropped the level adjustment by 1. Since it drops it entirely, that's even groovier.

Now I gotta make this guy as an NPC for my Kingmaker game, using a dedicated Evoker with a Ring of Wizardy 1.

hehe

Use pathfinder society wizard rules and it's even worse:

Human Evoker(magical lineage(magic missile))
B -- Spell Focus(evocation)
1 -- Varisian Tattoo(evocation)
h -- Toppling Spell

Almost a shame to not have that other trait to get precious apprentice so you have 2 missiles at first level.

Extra Traits @ 1st level, perhaps?


What is the level variable affect in magic missile?


Spell Specialization would work.

@wraithstrike the number of missiles is a variable based on caster level.

So you could do the following in Carrion Crown:
Int 20
Trait -- Inspired By Greatness(magic missile)
Trait -- Magical Lineage(magic missile)
B -- Spell Focus(evocation)
1 -- Spell Specialization(magic missile)
H -- Toppling Spell
3 -- Extra Traits(precious Apprentice (prestidigitation, magic missile), Indomitable Faith)

To give you a caster level 7 at level 3 for magic missile granting you 4 missiles with a trip CMB of +13.


It's a shame Intensified Spell doesn't allow you to increase the number of missiles. :| Maybe if your GM is nice?


The Chort wrote:
It's a shame Intensified Spell doesn't allow you to increase the number of missiles. :| Maybe if your GM is nice?

Alas for not letting casters have nice things.

Liberty's Edge

It will make spiritual weapon way more useful.

Probably not worth a feat for a cleric, but it will work nicely with a rod.


obadiah wrote:

Say I have a 3rd level human wizard who has taken Spell Focus (Evocation), Spell Specialization (Magic Missle) and the Toppling Spell Metamagic feat.

Now If he were to prepare his Toppling Magic Missle his Caster Level would be 5 (3+2 from Specialization) and he would cast 3 missles if I'm understanding it correctly. The problem I have is with the toppling part. Would each missle have an opportunity to trip it's target with a +10 trip bonus? For the sake of arguement pretend he has a 20 int.
** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

Add the trait that makes metamagic one less for one spell

Sczarni

Yeah, because I just had to make him, here's my take on the "Knock Down Force Missile Mage"

Google Docs Link


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
psionichamster wrote:

Yeah, because I just had to make him, here's my take on the "Knock Down Force Missile Mage"

Google Docs Link

Is Precocious Spellcaster a magic trait? If so, you can't take Magical Lineage AND Precocious Spellcaster (your chosen traits have to be from different categories).


Abraham spalding wrote:
The Chort wrote:
It's a shame Intensified Spell doesn't allow you to increase the number of missiles. :| Maybe if your GM is nice?
Alas for not letting casters have nice things.

Irony and sarcasm are notoriously hard to detect over the interwebs.

Also, I approve of the overt munchkinism in this thread. :)


Ravingdork wrote:
Is Precocious Spellcaster a magic trait? If so, you can't take Magical Lineage AND Precocious Spellcaster (your chosen traits have to be from different categories).

Looks to be a Regional Trait. For Taldor.


Ravingdork wrote:
psionichamster wrote:

Yeah, because I just had to make him, here's my take on the "Knock Down Force Missile Mage"

Google Docs Link

Is Precocious Spellcaster a magic trait? If so, you can't take Magical Lineage AND Precocious Spellcaster (your chosen traits have to be from different categories).

Which makes it a good thing that percocious spellcaster is a regional trait and magical lineage is a magic trait.

@meatrace:

Thank you -- it isn't often I get set up for something so well either.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
psionichamster wrote:

Yeah, because I just had to make him, here's my take on the "Knock Down Force Missile Mage"

Google Docs Link

Is Precocious Spellcaster a magic trait? If so, you can't take Magical Lineage AND Precocious Spellcaster (your chosen traits have to be from different categories).

Which makes it a good thing that percocious spellcaster is a regional trait and magical lineage is a magic trait.

@meatrace:

Thank you -- it isn't often I get set up for something so well either.

Glad to be of service. ;)

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