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Okay, that's an exageration, but the player switches weapons like every other session because he wants to try new different ones, he's not doing it to be optimal, I've been trying to make him focus on one optimal weapon for him, but he'll pull out a dagger one session, then a handaxe next, then a bow, then a slingstaff, then a horsechopper, then a different dagger, then a club. I want to make some feats and (eventually) a PrC for this guy if he contiues to do this so that he can have his fun switching weapons and not be left in the mechanical dust.
For the record he plays a halfling ranger with the archery path. and is currently level 3, he might eventually settle on a weapon but for now I want to be prepared in case he doesn't
So any suggestions or already exiting stuff, or made up stuff you have to share?
I don't see a problem necessarily. If you're not going guns blazing kill em all in your DM style then he should be fine. I played a character once where I only pulled a weapon if the situation was dire enough, otherwise I punched people in the face. For non-lethal..... and provoking AOOs since I didn't take Improved Unarmed Strike. Fun character tbh (invulnerable rager barbarian).
I'm sure when the situation calls for serious action he'll whip out his bow and melt face.
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I do track encumbrance and with his str 9 he doesn't have a lot. I'm not trying to stop him, but at higher levels (I'm running RotR) he's probably going to struggle and if I have options to make it more viable he won't regret that he didn't settle on a weapon at lower levels to maximise his feat selection.
I had a character like this once. He was a fighter and he never used the same weapon twice. After battle he would just chuck the weapon he used. He wasnt optimal and all the other players would follow me around like vultures waiting for my scrapes if I ever got a good magic weapon, but he was really fun.
Wants to be able to use all kinds of weapons and has a low str? I think I've seen a PrC that you could use. Give me a moment to check my collection.
What class is he playing? This reminds me of the weapon master hero card from the Thunderstone card game. You could have him use as any eapons as you liked in a battle, so I loaded him down with as many cursed axes (big damage) as I could. On a good draw he could one shot almost every monster in the deck. I didn't win that game but it was funny.
You dont need to specialize in a weapon if you've got other powers going. For example if he is playing a summoner why would he care about focusing on s weapon if he's pumping everything into his critter. Same with any number of classes.
here we go. Arcanis Player Guide has the Weapon Savant PrC, a five levels PrC. It has some steep requirements but gives proficiency in all weapons including the exotics, a small shield bonus as long as he is using a melee weapon that stacks with other shield bonuses, Weapon Finesse with all weapons, Improvised weapons, ability to use reach weapons to attack adjacent foes and on the last level he can reattune feats that only apply to one weapon (like weapon focus and weapon specialization) to apply to whatever weapon he is using now.
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here we go. Arcanis Player Guide has the Weapon Savant PrC, a five levels PrC. It has some steep requirements but gives proficiency in all weapons including the exotics, a small shield bonus as long as he is using a melee weapon that stacks with other shield bonuses, Weapon Finesse with all weapons, Improvised weapons, ability to use reach weapons to attack adjacent foes and on the last level he can reattune feats that only apply to one weapon (like weapon focus and weapon specialization) to apply to whatever weapon he is using now.
I don't have that book, is the PrC open content, can you post it, or is it posted somewhere like the pathfinder SRD
The improvised weaopn monk from the apg?
Mind you he is an archer ranger so that is is primary path. H2h is just a hobby for him. I would recommend adding some strange low value enchanted weapons as time goes on. I mean who else will get use out of the +1 ghost touch Sai? This dude will love it.
If you're wanting to limit his choices, then restrict what weapons are available for sale.
If you're using 3.5 books, then Weapons of Legacy and Bo9S have legacy items which get better as you level
Edit-
If he's really wanting to be able to use /anything/ as a weapon, then you might want to look at the Empty Hands monk archetype in the APG and perhaps design a custom Ranger fighting style for him. Since the EH monk treats all weapons as improvised weapons of specific stats, then you've got him down to three basic weapons, a light hammer equivalent, a club equivalent, and a quarterstaff equivalent.
If you can work up a resolution where he has fun and you don't cringe, then you've both won :)
I don't know if it's open content, but I'm wearing my special eyepatch, so I'll just post it. ARRRR.
WEAPON SAVANT
Many warriors focus on the mastery of a single weapon.
However, there are a few select individuals that realize that the
weapon used in a combat is irrelevant. A true master knows
that there are underlying concepts that apply to any weapon.
These Weapon Savants can use anything from a polearm to a
woodcarving knife with equal proficiency, and all weapons are
deadly in the hands of such an individual. Through long hours
they unlearn the techniques of specific weapons, and learn
instead the fundamental principles behind weaponry itself, first
becoming proficient in all weapons, then improving their skill,
until the basest of improvised weapons becomes a deadly tool
in their hands. Fighters are the most common Weapon Savants,
though paladins, rangers, and even monks occasionally progress
down this path.
Requirements:
To qualify as a Weapon Savant, a character must fulfill all
the following criteria.
• Base Attack Bonus: +6.
• Feats: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Three
Exotic Weapon proficiency feats (the character must have
actually spent feats on these exotic weapons, not gained
them through class features. For example, the Legionaire
feat would count, but the bard’s proficiency with the whip
would not), Improved Disarm.
• Special: Until the character reaches the 5th level
in Weapon Savant, the character cannot have any feat
that provides bonuses or special abilities (other than
proficiency) in a specific weapon. This includes Improved
Critical, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization. If
the character acquires any such feat permanently before
5th level, all class abilities are lost. If the feat is gained
temporarily (such as through a spell), the Weapon Savant
loses all class abilities as long as they have the feat. After
a character reaches the 5th level of Weapon Savant the
character may take these feats. See Many Blades Many
Methods for a complete explanation.
Hit Die: d8
Skill Points: 4 + Intelligence modifier.
Class Skills: The Weapon Savant’s class skills (and the key
ability for each skill) are: Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb
(Str), Craft (Int), Examine Martial Technique (Wis), Jump (Str),
Knowledge (history) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride
(Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble
(Dex).
Class Features:
All of the following are class features of the Weapon
Savant prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Weapon Savant is
proficient with all types of armor and shields (including tower
shields).
Total Weapon Proficiency: The Weapon Savant can
use any weapon without suffering a nonproficiency penalty,
including exotic weapons. No matter how strange the weapon, a
Weapon Savant can instantly grasps the nuances of its use. This
does not count as having exotic weapon proficiencies for the
purposes of gaining entry into a prestige class.
Deflect Attack: The Weapon Savant gains a +1 shield bonus
to AC versus all attacks (melee and ranged) as long as he knows
the attack is coming. This bonus rises to +2 at 3rd level, and +3 at
5th level. The Weapon Savant must have a melee weapon and/or
shield in hand to gain this bonus. Unlike most bonuses, this shield
bonus stacks with other shield bonuses. The character loses this
bonus when in heavy armor, or when heavily encumbered.
Total Finesse (Ex): At 2nd level, the Weapon Savant can
choose to use his Dexterity bonus instead of his Strength bonus
to hit, regardless of the weapon being used. Even large weapons
can benefit from this ability. The character loses this bonus
when in heavy armor, or when heavily encumbered. This counts
as having “Weapon Finesse” for the purposes of other prestige
classes and feats.
Improvised Weapons (Ex): At 2nd level, any object can be
used as a weapon. Tiny objects do 1d2 damage, Small objects do
1d4 damage, Medium objects do 1d6 damage, and Large objects
do 1d8 damage. All such weapons have a critical range of 20,
and do x2 damage on a successful critical. If thrown, they have a
10-foot range increment. In addition, the character’s skill is such
that practice weapons can be used with the same damage and
critical range as a real weapon (though the damage type usually
changes to bludgeoning).
Expert Strike (Ex): At 3rd level, the Weapon Savant gains
a +1 bonus on damage rolls with any weapon he uses.
Close-Combat Fighting (Ex): At 4th level, the Weapon
Savant may use weapons with reach even against foes who are
inside his reach (such as using a weapon with 10’ reach against
an opponent who is only 5’ away). He suffers a -4 penalty on
his attack rolls when doing so. Additionally, the Weapon Savant
may use ranged weapons in melee without drawing an attack of
opportunity.
Many Blades, Many Methods (Ex): The Weapon Savant
may take feats that normally apply to a single weapon, and
apply the advantages of those feats to any weapon he holds.
This process takes the Weapon Savant one full round, as he
takes a few seconds to familiarize himself with the weapon,
make a few practice swings, and so on. The ability lasts until
the Weapon Savant re-attunes his feats to another weapon. This
ability works only with melee weapons, and applies to any feat
that specifically says it may be gained more than once, but a
different weapon must be chosen each time. Through the use of
this ability, the Weapon Savant does not need to gain any such
feat more than once to be able to apply the feat to any melee
weapon.
Weapon Savant Advancement
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +1 +0 +2 +0 Total Weapon Proficiency, Deflect Attack +1
2nd +2 +0 +3 +0 Total Finesse, Improvised Weapons
3rd +3 +1 +3 +1 Deflect Attack +2, Expert Strike
4th +4 +1 +4 +1 Close-Combat Fighting
5th +5 +2 +4 +2 Deflect Attack +3, Many Blades Many Methods
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If you're wanting to limit his choices, then restrict what weapons are available for sale.
If you're using 3.5 books, then Weapons of Legacy and Bo9S have legacy items which get better as you level
Edit-
If he's really wanting to be able to use /anything/ as a weapon, then you might want to look at the Empty Hands monk archetype in the APG and perhaps design a custom Ranger fighting style for him. Since the EH monk treats all weapons as improvised weapons of specific stats, then you've got him down to three basic weapons, a light hammer equivalent, a club equivalent, and a quarterstaff equivalent.
If you can work up a resolution where he has fun and you don't cringe, then you've both won :)
Okay maybe my first post wasn't clear. I IN NO WAY WANT TO LIMIT HIS CHOICES.
I have tried to encourage him towards chosing a few weapons merely because the game somewhat encourages it in that you can guide your feat selection better, but I am in no way preventing him or trying to limit him.
The point of this thread is to make what he wants to do entirely possible, and not leave him too far behind in the damage department compared to the other characters at higher levels.
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The point of this thread is to make what he wants to do entirely possible, and not leave him too far behind in the damage department compared to the other characters at higher levels.
Perhaps he could have a 'beginner's luck' sort of feat or trait that gives him a +1 morale bonus or luck bonus or something to attack with a weapon that he's never used before. It lasts for one encounter, and then he's got to switch to something new.
Maybe, after he's gained a level, and his BAB has gone up, everything old becomes new again, and he can start swapping through weapons he used last level, because he's gained BAB and learned new fighting techniques.
He'd be the PC incarnation of the player who refuses to roll the same die too many times, and puts it away 'to rest' because 'all the luck is used up' and uses another die.
You could fine-tune it to taste. Perhaps he only gets the bonus when he swaps weapons mid-combat, and it's a bluff type thing, where he swings at someone's head with a mace, and just lets it fly off into the distance as he lets go and quick-draws a dagger and stabs them.
The ultimate eventual magic item for him would be something like a rod of lordly might or a lesser version that is a weapon enhanced via the polymorph any object spell to change into various other weapons, and, at higher levels, perhaps able to change into different materials (silver, cold iron, etc.). He might even learn a special technique to be able to hit foes flat-footed (or just get a +2 to the attack roll, or something) by changing the weapon in mid-swing, so that, as they attempt to block his short sword attack, they are caught off guard when it becomes a shortspear, in mid-thrust.
I had a player who ran a character like this once. As he became more familiar with the game, he settled into a fairly consistent choice of weaponry.
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Part of how we learn is having the opportunity to make those mistakes.
I have tried to encourage him towards chosing a few weapons merely because the game somewhat encourages it in that you can guide your feat selection better, but I am in no way preventing him or trying to limit him.
The point of this thread is to make what he wants to do entirely possible, and not leave him too far behind in the damage department compared to the other characters at higher levels.
I don't think it's a good idea to introduce players to the game then say sorry you chose to use a sub-optimal path, hope you don't mind. Besides I actually like the idea of a character that switches weapons all the time that I don't want him to be a bit gimped for doing it.
Maybe this player wants to be a master of many weapons. Before the advent of feats, that was a totally legitimate (in fact optimal) play style.
I recommend offering Battle Adaptation as a feat chain, so that he can change up every day, you can have a PC that is competent with whatever weapon he picks up (after a few hours practice), and he'll be no more powerful than he was before. (Obsolete version here)
This guy seems like exactly the player those feats were designed for.
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The ultimate eventual magic item for him would be something like a rod of lordly might or a lesser version that is a weapon enhanced via the polymorph any object spell to change into various other weapons, and, at higher levels, perhaps able to change into different materials (silver, cold iron, etc.). He might even learn a special technique to be able to hit foes flat-footed (or just get a +2 to the attack roll, or something) by changing the weapon in mid-swing, so that, as they attempt to block his short sword attack, they are caught off guard when it becomes a shortspear, in mid-thrust.
I once introduced a Pocket Myriad into a D&D game. It was based off the Pocket Myriad in the old Fighting Fantasy book Citadel of Chaos.
The Myriad was a golden sphere covered in various gem encrusted buttons, knobs, and dials. By fiddling with the controls, the Myriad would transform into all sorts of different kinds of weapons, like a magical Swiss Army knife.
You could introduce something like that, give it a flat bonus, and roll randomly to see what kind of weapon came out. Perhaps on a successful Disable Device check you could figure out how to pull out the weapon of your choice, but only after you've randomly pulled it out once before.
So, perhaps a Pocket Myriad +2 could end up being a Longsword +2 in one combat, a Flaming Trident +1 in the next, and a Dagger of Venom after that.
It's only when the PC starts saying, "Hey, I want that flaming trident again," multiple times that it might be time to trade in the Myriad for whatever he's looking for.
He's still low level right? I wouldn't worry about it too much -- there are plenty of good solid feats to take that don't require using a specific weapon (deadly aim, point blank shot, precise shot, etc) that he can take.
As he gains level and the loot makes some weapons more useful than others he'll start to settle down.
When you are lower level weapon jumping is less of an issue -- and actually a good thing, since it means that if you have a +1 something that isn't your 'focused weapon' you are more likely to use it than to try and force your focus to work in each situation.
Geez, just let him have fun.
When he get's to a higher level, let him get this on his big +N weapon, and he can pick up 3 of them, a dagger (light), sword (1-hand), and a greatsword (2-hand).
Transformative: This ability can only be placed on a melee weapon. A transformative weapon alters its shape at its wielder's command, becoming any other melee weapon of the same general shape and handedness; the weapon's categorization as simple, martial, or exotic is irrelevant. For example, a Medium transformative longsword can take the shape of any other Medium one-handed melee weapon, such as a scimitar, flail, or trident, but not a Medium light or two-handed melee weapon (such as a Medium short sword or a Medium greatsword). It can even take the shape of comparable weapons of different size categories. For example, a Small greatsword is a two-handed slashing weapon for a Small character, but is a one-handed slashing weapon for a Medium character, which is very similar to a Medium longsword; a Small transformative greatsword can become an actual Medium longsword, usable by a Medium creature without the –2 penalty for using a weapon of the wrong size. The weapon retains all of its abilities, including enhancement bonuses and weapon properties, except those prohibited by its current shape. For example, a keen transformative weapon functions normally in the form of a piercing or slashing weapon, but cannot use the keen property when in the shape of a bludgeoning weapon. When unattended, the weapon reverts to its true shape.
That takes care of the 'But it's expensive to have 15 +5 weapons' issue. The versatility of having 3 +4 weapons instead of 1 +6 weapon evens out.
As to feats, just make sure you advise him to take feats that are not weapon specific. Yes, that means he'll lose out some on the DPR, due to not having weapon focus/specialization. But he can work on other things, like the spring attack feat chain instead, and still be very viable in combat.
i personally have always wanted to play an unspecilized figther. change weapons all willy nilly like kind of gladiatorish. get the right tool for the job.
Geez, just let him have fun.
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Okay seriously WTF I haven't once said I want to stop him from doing this, just add some stuff to the game that he can choose to take if he continues doing it, Why the hell do I keep getting posters telling me that I'm trying to stop him or trying to limit him.
Sorry, you're right. I was more directing it toward the idea that he was going to be sub-par, not you specifically. Sorry about that.
EDIT : In my own defense, most of the threads with titles like yours are more the "How do I stop this". :) I still think the Transformative weapons are what he's going to enjoy at higher levels.
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Geez, just let him have fun.
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Okay seriously WTF I haven't once said I want to stop him from doing this, just add some stuff to the game that he can choose to take if he continues doing it, Why the hell do I keep getting posters telling me that I'm trying to stop him or trying to limit him.
Sorry, you're right. I was more directing it toward the idea that he was going to be sub-par, not you specifically. Sorry about that.
EDIT : In my own defense, most of the threads with titles like yours are more the "How do I stop this". :) I still think the Transformative weapons are what he's going to enjoy at higher levels.
Okay for my part sorry for the blow up. For the record, I am going to present him with stuff for him to choose or not choose, and I homebrew feats and PrCs and such for my players to take all the time, I don't force the stuff, just put it out there.
I hope my suggestion didn't get lost up there LKL — I really think it would work.
I don't think he should get special love for this - he's making a free will choice with his character to not come anywhere close to specializing on a specific weapon, a choice that has consequences of sub-optimal feat choices and power. So be it, that's his choice, it's probably fun to play at the table and the player seems to be having a good time. Home-brewing feats so that his choice is just as powerful as the fighter who has stuck with one weapon his entire career to the exclusion of everything else isn't fair, to either the fighter or the guy who can't make up mind.
Best I can recommend is dropping a weapon with the transformative ability in front of the character, so that he only has to carry and upgrade a single item instead of constantly having a weapon too weak to do the job. Not a perfect solution, it will only change into any other "melee weapon of the same general shape and handedness", but it should help.
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I don't think he should get special love for this - he's making a free will choice with his character to not come anywhere close to specializing on a specific weapon, a choice that has consequences of sub-optimal feat choices and power. So be it, that's his choice, it's probably fun to play at the table and the player seems to be having a good time. Home-brewing feats so that his choice is just as powerful as the fighter who has stuck with one weapon his entire career to the exclusion of everything else isn't fair, to either the fighter or the guy who can't make up mind.
Best I can recommend is dropping a weapon with the transformative ability in front of the character, so that he only has to carry and upgrade a single item instead of constantly having a weapon too weak to do the job. Not a perfect solution, it will only change into any other "melee weapon of the same general shape and handedness", but it should help.
He's not, he's getting the same love everyone in my games get, I'm big on homebrewing things for players.
I really wouldn't worry about it until he's higher level. I'm assuming they are still fairly low level, right? Maybe he'll specialize once he picks up a +1 flaming great axe or whatever good magic weapon comes his way.
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As an archery ranger, the obvious "Optimal" weapon is a Composite Longbow +x (where x is the PC's Str mod).
Since this particular PC has a Str penalty (Str 9, right?), that's right out of the question.
So, if there's a hard ceiling of "must maximize DPR," this will be a self-correcting problem, since the low-Str ranger will expire soon.
If not, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Far Shot, Dodge, Mobility, Shot on the Run, Manyshot, Vital Strike will take the "unfocused" ranger pretty darn far. (Up to 14-15th level, if he takes nothing but archery feats.)
For this particular character, Quick Draw, Throw Anything, Caught off Guard, Improvised Weapon Mastery would compliment the standard Ranger combat style feats quite nicely.
While it may seem like the #'s won't match up later on, I don't expect this character to have any serious trouble with standard adventures as I've seen them.
As an archery ranger, the obvious "Optimal" weapon is a Composite Longbow +x (where x is the PC's Str mod).
Halfling Warslinger gives that a bit of a run for its money -- but only a bit.
Specialization is dumb and one of my least favorite carry-ons from AD&D.
I'd say go with one of the options like the PrC or give him a Rod of Lordly Might that he can enchant further or something like that.