Issues with grapple


Rules Questions

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

GRAPPLE AND QUESTIONS
I have recently purchased Pathfinder and replaced my 3.5 game with the new system. Overall, I like the game, but... I've heard that one of the biggest complaints with 3.5 was the grapple rules and that one of the intentions of Pathfinder was to simplify and fix grapple. I find the grapple rules confusing and ambiguous in many areas and I'm writing this to clarify some of my assumptions and perhaps shine some light on the design choices that Paizo made. Forgive me if I seem annoyed or accusatory in my questioning, but I was really hoping for a streamlined system. Here are the grapple rules and condition definitions for "grappled" and "pinned" and my notes and questions.

Grapple
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition. If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails). Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds.
(So my opponent gets two chances to escape each round, once during his own turn and once when I attempt to maintain the grapple during my turn? Granted, I get a +5 to maintain, but was this done just to tone down the power of grapple?) Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple.

Move: You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.

Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.

Pin: You can give your opponent the pinned condition (see Conditions). Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.

Tie Up: If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.
Is this all I can do while grappling an opponent? The character I'm grappling can cast spells (albeit with some difficulty). Can I cast a spell? Can I cast a Silent and Still modified spell if I have Eschew Materials? Even a pinned character can do this with a concentration check, so why can't the initiator of a grapple? Can I use a Quickened Spell because it doesn't take a standard action? Do I need to make a concentration check to do so? If I can cast a spell by making a concentration check as the grapple condition implies, do I take a -4 penalty to my grapple check (for using a single hand) if the spell has a somatic or material component and I don't have Eschew Materials or apply Still Spell? What if I have Greater Grapple and can maintain as a minor action? Theoretically I should be able to use my standard action then to cast a spell (with concentration check), but is Greater Grapple the only way? How come the character I've grappled can cast spells without Greater Grapple, but I can't?

If You Are Grappled: If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent's CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity) or Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to your opponent's CMD). If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally. Alternatively, if you succeed, you can become the grappler, grappling the other creature (meaning that the other creature cannot freely release the grapple without making a combat maneuver check, while you can). Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that requires only one hand to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you. See the grappled condition for additional details. If you are pinned, your actions are very limited. See the pinned condition in Conditions for additional details.

Conditions
Grappled: A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity
(This equates to a -2 to CMD, right? That sucks for both the grappled and the grappler, but mostly the grappler because he is trying to hold the other and by being grappled makes it easier for the opponent to escape). A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.

A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so. If a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit.

Pinned: A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is flat-footed. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. (Since Pinned doesn't stack with Grappled, my opponent no longer has a -4 penalty to Dexterity and is instead Flat-Footed. A Flat-Footed character "does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD." So this means if the opponent I'm pinning has a 10 Dexterity, I now have a -2 to my CMD and he no longer does. Even if I normally have a +1 Dex modifier, he is now better off than I am in CMD and actually has an easier time escaping than when he was "grappled". Or rather, I have a harder time holding him. I don't think that's right.) A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.
So if I am pinned and I beat the character pinning me with my grapple check, am I completely free, or still grappled (but not pinned like in 3.5)? It seems to say that you not only escape the pin, but also escape the grapple. In this case, pinning a character is not very good and the only reason I see to do it is if you want to hold a character down while your friends stab him to death with the -4 AC and Flat-Footedness. And that's is not very heroic. Or to make it a bit harder for them to cast a spell with any components. Not only that, but while I'm pinning, I now have a harder time maintaining the grapple which makes escape easier. Not cool.


Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

1. your grapple check on your turn is to allow you to do things like unarmed damage, pin, tie up etc.

2. you can let go. really this is the point of grappling holding your opponent down so that they can't do anything/you allies pound him. If you want to cast a spell then don't grapple, cast the spell

3. the -4 DEX penalty does not apply to grapple checks

4.

PRD wrote:
Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD.

this means that the pinned -4 AC also means that you get -4 to CMD, an effective 2 Dex

5. the point of pinning is to tie them up and effectively remove them from combat.

Liberty's Edge

To cast a spell, the opponent has to forgo their attempt to break free since grappling takes both hands. You can certainly cast a spell, but you also have to stop actively grappling to do so. I do not see why you cannot use a quickened spell, though. Maintaining your grapple is just like any other standard action.

I do, however, think it's BS that it's so difficult to grapple someone for any length of time (even with that +5 bonus). I also think that escaping a Pin should put you back to Grappled, but you are correct that it completely frees you.

Shadow Lodge

So...

I cast Chill Touch, then next round, start a grapple with an opponent. What happens?

Grand Lodge

InVinoVeritas wrote:

So...

I cast Chill Touch, then next round, start a grapple with an opponent. What happens?

The way I read it, you take a -4 penalty to start the grapple, since you can't use two hands to start the grapple, and then on your next round if you still maintain the grapple you can choose to deliver the Chill Touch damage as part of your grapple.

Since delivering a touch spell and initiating a grapple are both standard actions you have to pick which one you want to do, you can't do in the same round.


DarkKnight27 wrote:
InVinoVeritas wrote:

So...

I cast Chill Touch, then next round, start a grapple with an opponent. What happens?

The way I read it, you take a -4 penalty to start the grapple, since you can't use two hands to start the grapple, and then on your next round if you still maintain the grapple you can choose to deliver the Chill Touch damage as part of your grapple.

Since delivering a touch spell and initiating a grapple are both standard actions you have to pick which one you want to do, you can't do in the same round.

I'm not positive, but I know you can deliver a touch attack as part of a regular natural attack. Also, if you touch something with the "charged" hand, the spell discharges into whatever you touch. Therefore, I would think that you conduct that grapple check with both hands, and if you succeed, the spell discharges into the creature you have grappled. Then on following rounds, you would have to succeed on a grapple check to do damage in order to deliver another touch.

Grand Lodge

reefwood wrote:
I'm not positive, but I know you can deliver a touch attack as part of a regular natural attack. Also, if you touch something with the "charged" hand, the spell discharges into whatever you touch. Therefore, I would think that you conduct that grapple check with both hands, and if you succeed, the spell discharges into the creature you have grappled. Then on following rounds, you would have to succeed on a grapple check to do damage in order to deliver another touch.

I missed that part about melee touch spells and natural attacks. My grappler just got a little nastier I think.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

j b 200 wrote:
1. your grapple check on your turn is to allow you to do things like unarmed damage, pin, tie up etc.

But if I fail, my opponent escapes. Grapple over. Start again.

j b 200 wrote:
2. you can let go. really this is the point of grappling holding your opponent down so that they can't do anything/you allies pound him. If you want to cast a spell then don't grapple, cast the spell.

Not good enough in my opinion. I should be able to cast a spell especially if I don't need any components to do so. My grappled opponent can and I used to be able to in 3rd Ed.

j b 200 wrote:
3. the -4 DEX penalty does not apply to grapple checks

I think you are wrong here. The Dexterity penalty and the -2 to attacks and CMD are separate. It ends up being a -4 to CMD because of both penalties, but only a -2 for grappling. I know that they are separate because a -4 Dexterity penalty would not give a "-2 to all attack rolls."

j b 200 wrote:
4.
PRD wrote:
Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD.
this means that the pinned -4 AC also means that you get -4 to CMD, an effective 2 Dex

Good call. I don't know why I missed that. Oh, yeah cause I have to look in a dozen different places to find all the rules I need for the simplest things. Another complaint I have about PF.

j b 200 wrote:
5. the point of pinning is to tie them up and effectively remove them from combat.

Just to clear things up, this is what I am trying to do. In a one on one wizards' duel I want one combatant to Beast Shape himself into a Huge constrictor snake and grapple the other. Then if need be I want the grappling wizard to be able to cast a spell or two while grappling by using Eschew Materials, Still Spell, and Silent Spell. There are no other combatants to pound the pinned wizard, and in a snake body I can't tie up the other combatant. In 3.5 I could cast a spell with the right checks, and I should be able to do the same in PF.

Nephatrine wrote:

To cast a spell, the opponent has to forgo their attempt to break free since grappling takes both hands. You can certainly cast a spell, but you also have to stop actively grappling to do so. I do not see why you cannot use a quickened spell, though. Maintaining your grapple is just like any other standard action.

I do, however, think it's BS that it's so difficult to grapple someone for any length of time (even with that +5 bonus). I also think that escaping a Pin should put you back to Grappled, but you are correct that it completely frees you.

You are right on both accounts. Grapple used to be a great way to prevent a character from casting a spell, but now it is too easy to break out. I like the old rules better, where I had a lot more options and my opponent didn't have two opportunities to escape every round. Also, I thought they were trying to simplify grappling. These rules, as written, and placed in three different parts of the book, are just as bad if not worse.

Grand Lodge

Ok, so the wizard who's not a giant snake is grappled. He CAN cast spells by making a concentration check to do so, he just doesn't get the option to also turn the grapple or escape from the grapple of the giant snake. That's how it was in 3.0 and 3.5 as well.

If you want to cast a spell and take a standard action of any kind then you need to use Quicken Rods, Quicken Spells, and Eschew Materials or find some other way to turn a standard action spell into a swift or immediate action so you still have your standard action to do something else like attack or grapple or whatever.


if you want to cast spells while grappling you need grater grapple.

roundd 1 standard action grapple

round 2 use move action from grater grapple to maintain.
use standard action to cast a spell.

if you dont have greater grapple maintaining uses you standard a tion. I don't really see why this is a problem.

you can't completely incspacitate someone /AND/ nuke people with spells easily this would be a bit over powered.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

DarkKnight27 wrote:

Ok, so the wizard who's not a giant snake is grappled. He CAN cast spells by making a concentration check to do so, he just doesn't get the option to also turn the grapple or escape from the grapple of the giant snake. That's how it was in 3.0 and 3.5 as well.

Yes. I know this, but I want the giant snake to be able to cast a spell while he is grappling the other wizard, which was possible in 3.5.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Also, escaping a pin leaves you still grappled. 'Pinned' doesn't replace 'grappled', it overlaps with it. If you make your check to escape the pin, you've still got the grappled condition. The escape artist rules back this up.


Phloid wrote:
DarkKnight27 wrote:

Ok, so the wizard who's not a giant snake is grappled. He CAN cast spells by making a concentration check to do so, he just doesn't get the option to also turn the grapple or escape from the grapple of the giant snake. That's how it was in 3.0 and 3.5 as well.

Yes. I know this, but I want the giant snake to be able to cast a spell while he is grappling the other wizard, which was possible in 3.5.

then give the giant snake greater grapple. or the ability to use it's abilities as swift actions.

Grand Lodge

Phloid wrote:
Yes. I know this, but I want the giant snake to be able to cast a spell while he is grappling the other wizard, which was possible in 3.5.

Then like the other poster mentioned, the snake would need to have the Greater Grapple feat (so maintaining the grapple is a move action) and some way to cast spells as a spell like ability or supernatural ability.

I truly don't recall rules from 3.0 or 3.5 that would allow the snake to grapple and cast spells since in 3.0/3.5 grappling and casting were still both standard actions.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

Mojorat wrote:

if you want to cast spells while grappling you need grater grapple.

roundd 1 standard action grapple

round 2 use move action from grater grapple to maintain.
use standard action to cast a spell.

if you dont have greater grapple maintaining uses you standard a tion. I don't really see why this is a problem.

Yeah, I saw Greater Grapple and mentioned it in my initial analysis, but I can't justify the three feats and 12th level of advancement to pull off a spell with my grappling wizard. Not to mention the metamagic feats that would make this trick easier (or even possible as a snake).

Mojorat wrote:
you can't completely incspacitate someone /AND/ nuke people with spells easily this would be a bit over powered.

I don't expect this to be easy. A successful grapple check and a successful concentration check is not easy. Not to mention the metamagic feat selection and the raised spell level needed to cast such a spell. All my grappled opponent has to do is succeed at the concentration check. The problem is, that the grappler is almost more limited in what he can do than the grapplee. He can cast spells. He can attack adjacent characters. He can try to break free. He can try to reverse the grapple. He can do anything possible with only one hand. All the grappler can do is maintain the grapple and one of four options. If he does anything else, grapple's over. Pinning is sightly better, but can be escaped almost as easily and just as quickly. Nope. the 3.5 grapple rules were more concise, realistic, and just as clearly written.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

DarkKnight27 wrote:
I truly don't recall rules from 3.0 or 3.5 that would allow the snake to grapple and cast spells since in 3.0/3.5 grappling and casting were still both standard actions.

From the d20 SRD:

Cast a Spell
You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell.

Grand Lodge

Phloid wrote:

From the d20 SRD:

Cast a Spell
You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell.

Ah that's right. Grappling was "kind of an action" action. I remember now, you could grapple as part of a full attack, as an action on it's own, or as part of almost any action.

Pathfinder did refine grapple as standard action so yes, you are more restricted with what you can do in some ways but in other ways grapple is a lot more clearly defined. So it is easier to rule on. If you want to house rule it you can always add an action to PF grappling that would allow your snake to cast a spell under whatever circumstances that you think are fair or right for you campaign.


Nope. the 3.5 grapple rules were more concise, realistic, and just as clearly written

I am going to have to disagree with this statement. 3.5 grapple rules were one of the least understood I'n the game for some reason. it looks like your making a monster that needs to do something the rules were not intended to.

just dm fiat write the monster an. ability that does what you want.

Pf grapple changes made it way easier to understand and is hands down a better system. I think a monster that can do what you want is potentially toop strong but you know your players.

as it is non casting giant snakes can completely remove most players from combat.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

As a giant snake, you're getting a 9 + your normal CMB to initiate the grapple and 14 + CMB to maintain it (+2 size, +4 for having grab, +3 from the Strength boost beast shape gives you). If he's a wizard like you said, he can't have that high of a CMD, it might almost be an automatic success (need to roll a 1 to fail).

The concentration check shouldn't be too tough for you either. Hard to pin down exact numbers without stats, but unless your opponent is way higher level than you, you have a crap Int, or he's got a really high Str, I'm gonna guess you'll pass this on a roll of 5 or more. Pretty easy check.

So yeah, grabbing and nuking him would be too easy.

Grappling got less deadly in PF, I believe this was intentional. You may want to look into a different tactic, maybe try summoning a monster to grapple the mage for you, or use black tentacles?

Shadow Lodge

DarkKnight27 wrote:
reefwood wrote:
I'm not positive, but I know you can deliver a touch attack as part of a regular natural attack. Also, if you touch something with the "charged" hand, the spell discharges into whatever you touch. Therefore, I would think that you conduct that grapple check with both hands, and if you succeed, the spell discharges into the creature you have grappled. Then on following rounds, you would have to succeed on a grapple check to do damage in order to deliver another touch.
I missed that part about melee touch spells and natural attacks. My grappler just got a little nastier I think.

It's the Strength damage that makes me like this combo.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Issues with grapple All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.