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Hi everyone,
I'm sure most of you are all sick of this topic, and I honestly did try and find an already existing post about it, but to no avail.
Base forms.
So I'm in a game with a rather pedantic rules lawyer. They are of the opinion that a summoner can summon their Eidolon in any of the 3 different base forums. His reasoning for this is the following:
APG P.55: "...each eidolon receives a pool of evolution points, based on the summoner's class level..."
APG P.58: "Each eidolon possesses a base form that modifies these base statistics."
APG P.59: "Each eidolon has one of three base forms that determine..."
Well you get the picture.
It's that darned word 'each'. Now I went looking for the 'cannot be changed once selected' forgetting that that specific line had been removed since the play testing versions. Now I'm looking for some scrap of text that definitively says Don't be an idiot, you're eidolon only has one form. However, I can't actually find it. Logic says one thing, The weaknesses of the English language say another. Sadly I'm not the GM otherwise I'd just say 'cause I say so'.
Can anyone point out what I'm missing here? Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi you're my only hope!
Edited: A typo I noticed
The eidolon forms a link with the summoner, who, forever after, summons an aspect of the same creature. An eidolon has the same alignment as the summoner that calls it and can speak all of his languages.
Don't be an idiot. Eidolons only have one form. We're talking to you, Aestolia's friend.
Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures...
But seriously:
Each eidolon has one of three base forms
A summoner can summon his eidolon
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Note, each of the three passages you copied are in the singular, not plural, form. So you have one of three possible forms, you have a single base form, etc. If it were to say that your eidolon has three base forms, then sure you could swap them all you want. It's like evolution points, once you pick them, you're stuck with them, for better or worse, until you level up again, when you can basically rebuild your entire pet again. Hope something in there helps.
Addendum: The transmogrify spell lets you rebuild your eidolon as well once you get it, except for the base form(that's a permanent decision). There are also "evolution surge" spells that let you make additional evolutions on the fly.
On another note, can't you just point out the logical fallacies to the GM? The fluff text strongly implies that the rules lawyer is wrong.
Note, each of the three passages you copied are in the singular, not plural, form. So you have one of three possible forms, you have a single base form, etc. If it were to say that your eidolon has three base forms, then sure you could swap them all you want. It's like evolution points, once you pick them, you're stuck with them, for better or worse, until you level up again, when you can basically rebuild your entire pet again. Hope something in there helps.Addendum: The transmogrify spell lets you rebuild your eidolon as well once you get it, except for the base form(that's a permanent decision). There are also "evolution surge" spells that let you make additional evolutions on the fly.
Do you have a source for that? I thought that, until I read Okugi's post and went looking, and didn't find anything.
Well there is no text that says that, but it does say t hat the choice of Base form is permanent and none of the modification spells do anything but change evolutions.
Transmogrify: "This spell does not allow you to change your eidolon's base form."
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I get that, and I get that the fluff points out it's singular.
I wish you were correct Okugi, but those phrases aren't in the singular. they're written in a distributive construction which uses singular words which are typically applied to a multiple.
A common example of this is the saying: 'Every dog has his day.' Singular reflecting the plural. Also 'Each dog has his day.' also does this, Each is one of those words which frequently trigger a distributive construction.
This is one of those tricky wibbly wobbly parts of English that sadly has exceptions to seemingly every rule. But in terms of the English language these sentences can be taken as either:
'Each summoners eidolon has one of three...'
or
'Each of the summoners eidolon has one of three...'
The guy works in a justice department so is seriously hung up on the use of the English. Which by the wording actually is a bit ambiguous. This is why I'm looking for some passage that with out a doubt says One form one eidolon, don't be an idiot.
As for the use where it is clearly singular. 'his eidolon' the way he's arguing it is that is is a singular eidolon with 3 forms: Feats and skills don't change, evolutions do. With each base form being a separate aspect of the same creature.
He's literally driving me mad.. I've never contemplated killing another pc before... but lately...
I get that, and I get that the fluff points out it's singular.
I wish you were correct Okugi, but those phrases aren't in the singular. they're written in a distributive construction which uses singular words which are typically applied to a multiple.
A common example of this is the saying: 'Every dog has his day.' Singular reflecting the plural. Also 'Each dog has his day.' also does this, Each is one of those words which frequently trigger a distributive construction.
This is one of those tricky wibbly wobbly parts of English that sadly has exceptions to seemingly every rule. But in terms of the English language these sentences can be taken as either:
'Each summoners eidolon has one of three...'
or
'Each of the summoners eidolon has one of three...'The guy works in a justice department so is seriously hung up on the use of the English. Which by the wording actually is a bit ambiguous. This is why I'm looking for some passage that with out a doubt says One form one eidolon, don't be an idiot.
As for the use where it is clearly singular. 'his eidolon' the way he's arguing it is that is is a singular eidolon with 3 forms: Feats and skills don't change, evolutions do. With each base form being a separate aspect of the same creature.
He's literally driving me mad.. I've never contemplated killing another pc before... but lately...
I really don't see how you can have any other reading.
"A summoner begins play with the ability to summon to his side a powerful outsider called an eidolon." (1 summoner = 1 eidolon)"Each eidolon has one of three base forms". (There are three base forms. You choose one.)
"Each eidolon possesses a base form." (You get one, not all three.)
If this isn't enough to convince him, get him to write out his argument or come post it himself, so we can do a better breakdown of it.
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I just explained his argument, you're focusing on the 'A' when the problem is the 'each'. It changes the sentence, as I explained into the possible meaning of a multiple, even though it still uses single pronouns.
as for the single part as I said, he agree's it's one eidolon, just that it can be summoned in any of the three forums because of the distributive construction of the sentences.
I just explained his argument, you're focusing on the 'A' when the problem is the 'each'. It changes the sentence, as I explained into the possible meaning of a multiple, even though it still uses single pronouns.
as for the single part as I said, he agree's it's one eidolon, just that it can be summoned in any of the three forums because of the distributive construction of the sentences.
"Each dog has an owner" <-- There are many dogs (in the park, in the world, etc). Each individual one has at least one owner.
"Each dog has one of three owners" <-- There are many dogs. Each individual has only a single owner out of the three possible owners.Since the Eidolon text uses both, and one includes the other (the first can be true without the second being true, but if the second is true, the first must be true), then the rule is by the more specific one. Each eidolon (and we've agreed that each summoner only has one), has one of three forms.
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"Each dog has an owner" <-- There are many dogs (in the park, in the world, etc). Each individual one has at least one owner.
"Each dog has one of three owners" <-- There are many dogs. Each individual has only a single owner out of the three possible owners.
I'm going to try approaching it to him this way. As I said he's being seriously pedantic about it. Hopefully he'll stop being an idiot about it.
But I guess what everyone's saying is: it doesn't actually say it specifically anywhere in the book, just implies it through people who play-tested and the intended meaning of what's written.
"Each dog has an owner" <-- There are many dogs (in the park, in the world, etc). Each individual one has at least one owner.
"Each dog has one of three owners" <-- There are many dogs. Each individual has only a single owner out of the three possible owners.
I'm going to try approaching it to him this way. As I said he's being seriously pedantic about it. Hopefully he'll stop being an idiot about it.
But I guess what everyone's saying is: it doesn't actually say it specifically anywhere in the book, just implies it through people who play-tested and the intended meaning of what's written.
I find it pretty obvious in the book, but no, it doesn't ever say "Each summoner has one and only one Eidolon, which in turn has one and only one base form." If he's still trying to get away with it, challenge him to come up with an example where "Each ____ has one of three _____" means that you get all three choices.
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Do you have a source for that? I thought that, until I read Okugi's post and went looking, and didn't find anything.Note, each of the three passages you copied are in the singular, not plural, form. So you have one of three possible forms, you have a single base form, etc. If it were to say that your eidolon has three base forms, then sure you could swap them all you want. It's like evolution points, once you pick them, you're stuck with them, for better or worse, until you level up again, when you can basically rebuild your entire pet again. Hope something in there helps.Addendum: The transmogrify spell lets you rebuild your eidolon as well once you get it, except for the base form(that's a permanent decision). There are also "evolution surge" spells that let you make additional evolutions on the fly.
IIRC, it was stated outright by one of the devs. I remember the topic coming up when I was asking about being able to remove the free evolutions that came with the base forms.
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I couldn't find exactly what I was thinking of, but here's a thread where this issue was discussed with one of the developers.