I'm curious about what feats a rogue should build towards for the 10+ level part of the game. I find that if you don't plan ahead with feats, you end up in serious trouble at about the time that the casters are altering the basic rules of reality. So, since I'm contemplating building a goblin rogue for my next character, what should I be planning to get?
(Incidentally, I'm utterly fine with the role playing side of things, so I don't need advice there. My general take is that skills are the mechanics for RP, feats are for making sure that you don't have a three hour session of combat ineptitude. Besides with a goblin in a G/N aligned party, there shouldn't be problems finding things to RP.)
Thanks for any advice you can give me!
First, I wouldn't worry about what another class can do if I'm playing a rogue (or any other character). I would just worry about mine. No matter what the hype, casters cannot do everything especially all the time. A well played caster will let you do the things you do well and focus on areas that you don't do well.
Second, without knowing anything about your character, I think it will be difficult to tell you what feats you should focus on. What do you want from your rogue?
I'd like to be effective at combat, basically. With rogues, that tends to mean sneak attack, especially since a goblin rogue has a +12 modifier to stealth before Dex gets factored in. I mean, small-sized rogues can't really do battlefield control, can they?
Essentially, the most reliable form of DPS for a rogue is flanking to enable sneak attacks. I suggest you build a rogue that has staying power in a fight so that you can take advantage of full-round flanking attacks. Possibly consider the rogue talents that let you cast a level 1 spell a few times a day. Shield maybe, or vanish can give you the edge to stay in dangerous parts in combat. Vanish has the added bonus that it lets you start sneaking on demand without worrying about cover/concealment.
Though there are some other good level 1 spells you can take advantage of.
If your team has one or two other dudes up in melee and you all take Outflank, the results can be devastating. Consider taking the Opportunist Advance Rogue Talent and Combat Reflexes as well. Opportunist may only trigger once per round, but Outflank + keen rapier means your flanking buddy will love you.
As a goblin rogue, you'll have high dex and small size to boost your AC. You'll also have 30 base speed. Consider the Spring Attack chain. You can weave in and out of combat until you want to settle in and deliver a few full rounds of sneak attacks. Dodge ups your AC too. If you ever plan on remaining in combat, Toughness is a must. Your favored class bonus should also be a hit point every level since you have tons of skills.
So feats like: Toughness, Dodge>Mobility>Spring Attack, Outflank (if your team supports this), Iron Will, Weapon Finesse (from rogue talent), Combat Reflexes, Vexing Flanker (from 3.5 if that's allowed), Defensive Combat Training.
Rogue talents like: Finesse Rogue, Combat Trick, Minor Magic, Major Magic (as Lorekeeper suggests), Opportunist, Bonus Feat.
If all those flanking feats are taken, you'll get a +6 bonus to attack when flanking. With that, you could even two weapon fight without the feat against a few foes. Opportunist and Combat Reflexes will give you 1 extra attack per foe who gets hit each round. Outflank will give you (or an ally) an extra attack against any flanked foe that gets critted on (or more if crits are chained).
What the last guy said is dead on. Get Opportunist as a talent at 10th. Convince whoever else is melee in you party to take Outflank and Paired Opportunists (if you have three or more melee) with you, and try to make sure you and the other person also rock some high-crit-chance weapons. All of these together will turn you and the other melee members of the parts into a ridiculous melee-team-blender of death.
Personally, I would grab Two Weapon Fighting and eventually Improved Two Weapon Fighting. A level or even 2 in Fighter really helps Rogues as well, as you get some bonus feats as well as the ability to dual wield kukris. Go weapon finesse route and focus on Dex (remember the crits are simply to provoke AoOs for your team mates using the teamwork feats mentioned above...your damage comes through sneak attack and getting AoOs off of other team members attacks as well as TWF).
Celestial Armor is the STUFF for rogues. Huge bonus to your AC. Also, full ranks in UMD and grab some cheap wands of Shield and Vanish. Quick Draw works well if you're constantly shuffling weapons and wands. Max out Acrobatics to avoid AoOs, and max out Escape Artist in case you're grappled.
For this kind of combat rogue, talents are finesse rogue, befuddling strike, the extra combat feat talent, and the weapon focus talent. Then take Opportunist at 10.
If you have feats to spare (probably only if you took a couple levels in Fighter), Iron Will is nice as your save there probably isn't high. Dodge also is good for another point to your AC, and eventually Mobility and Spring attack can be real useful. Your AC will actually end up pretty high (especially if you move closer and drop Shield via a wand in the first round of combat), and sometimes it might be nice to provoke AoOs with Mobility so that your other team members can then move into position unmolested (except in rare cases where the target has combat reflexes).
I would also consider the Scout archetype. You'd lose Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge but you'd be able to use sneak attack when you move even if your opponent isn't denied his Dexterity. Find a way to get multiple attacks when you move and you could do well with a very mobile rogue.
If you consider multi-classing, go with a mobile fighter. Fighter 12/Rogue 8. Pick up Hellcat Stealth and Hellcat Pounce. Go two-weapon fighting and you should be able to get a bunch of sneak attacks in each round with ease. You won't get Opportunist but you may not need it.
here are my suggestions
the same for any martial
focus on strength, but keep dexterity moderate. don't fall for the trap of overfocusing on dexterity. it gets PCs killed. armor can only accomodate so much dexteirty.
find a good 2hander. i personally reccomend a half elf with a meteor hammer and the ancestral arms alternate racial trait. meteor hammer is an awesome fortress mode reach weapon. much like the old 3.5 edition spiked chain, but better.
get power attack ASAP
dump charisma as low as possible
don't be afraid to multiclass fighter, mithril medium armor is perfect. especially mithril breast plate.
follow this advice
and you will hit almost as hard as the 2WF rogue, but with less attacks required and less variable numbers, and you get a much bigger boost out of haste and attacks of oppurtunity.
you may even outdamage the 2WF rogue.
and you lose less net damage from lack of flank or from excessive movement.
and you burn a great deal less feats than the 2WF guy. meaning, you can afford to be much more versatile.
i like the idea of a wiry but strong half-elf who used the ancestral arms alternate racial ability to pick up proficiency in the meteor hammer. 2handing it in fortress mode from 10 feet away. in fact, it gives me jackie chan/jet li visuals.
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If your STR is anywhere near 13, consider EWP:Elven Curve Sword two-handing with Power Attack (using Weapon Finesse to hit, which I assume you already have from rogu2). You'll get fewer attacks per full-attack vs. TWF, but have fewer feat requirements than TWF or Spring Attack, and dish out more damage per hit (which means you won't utterly suck with kukris when you're fighting golems or puddings, etc, or your combats are usually move/hit/move/hit). Grab the feat that grants AoOs when somebody enters a threatened area. If your charisma score is high and it fits your character concept to do so, gradually shift your alignment to LG, then take two levels of paladin (for about a +6 jump to all saves -- that plus a Smite are as good as two levels of fighter any day of the week). Jack UMD into orbit.
dump charisma as low as possible
Great. Another smelly Belkar clone.
Don't do it unless hack 'n slash is all you care about, because most of the primary fun of playing a rogue is outside of combat, and so many awesome multiclass synergies become available to high-INT and/or high-CHA rogues.
Edit: <shrug> Nix all that...you're a goblin. If you dumped your STR to the point Power Attack is unattainable without massive investment in magical belts, then Improved TWF all the way -- and stay full-class rogue because you'll need every extra d6 and talent you can grab.
Ah, I forgot to mention that it's likely it would be Pathfinder only, with no 3.5 feats that didn't make it in.
Being smallish is definitely kind of a disavntage here. You practically HAVE to take weapon finnesse to get your hit up. Look for non-strength based methods of damage dealing.
My thoughts? Be as stealthy as gobliny possible (rather easy) with as high an initative as you can get away with. I think Scout works to your benefit here as well since you can still get your sneak attacks without staying too long in melee. Definitely work on staying away from CMB monstrosities as they'll eat you alive (literally!).
at least with a medium strength based power attacking rogue wielding a 2handed weapon,
you have less need to constantly change armor
you have more reliable static bonuses
you hit almost as hard as the 2WF rogue
you lose a great deal less potential damage from moving.
you have more feats to spend. thus actually affording a feat chain the 2WF rogue couldn't. like spring attack. not to mention, you hit harder on a spring attack.
and you recieve a bigger boost from haste, a commonly used party buff after around 5th level.
you spend a great deal less game time rolling dice.
and a spiked gauntlet allows you to fight when grappled too.
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(stuff about Scout and multiple sneak attacks)
At 8th level, whenever a scout moves more than 10 feet in a round and makes an attack action, the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was flat-footed. If the scout makes more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack.
Sorry, that won't work.
-----------------------------Anyhow, OP, consider a three level dip to Inquisitor. Gets you a wealth of stuff, like caster level for wands, a nice Domain(Travel, Darkness, etc), a favored weapon and most importantly Solo Tactics(Ex.) and teamwork feats. Suddenly you may take all those nice flanking and aao feats and don't have to pester anyone to take them. Precise Strike keeps you SA progression steady(when flanking) and simple things like not having to use UMD for healing wands or Minor Magic for Read Magic are nice bonuses in this clas combo.
And I can just imagine a freedom fighting Inquisitor of Cayden Cailean, who decides to go undercover as a nice way to explain this combo in-universe.
Thanks for any advice you can give me!
Outflank seconded. That feat is amazing!
As far as a feat-chain, mobility is a key issue about being a rogue. . . especially if you're playing a melee-based rogue.
The Step Up and Strike chain is a great idea. Bad guys often try to weasel their way out of flanks with 5 ft. steps. That goes great with Combat Reflexes and Nimble Moves.
Out of curiosity, does the Vital Strike feat damage stack with Sneak Attack? If so, I imagine that feat chain would be a good one for combat-oriented Rogues.
(stuff about Scout and multiple sneak attacks)
At 8th level, whenever a scout moves more than 10 feet in a round and makes an attack action, the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was flat-footed. If the scout makes more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack.Sorry, that won't work.
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But if you get the Hellcat feats I mention, whenever you successfully deal sneak attack damage you can attack again. If you are going first, your opponent is probably still flat-footed and so you are once again getting sneak attacks on more than just one attack. I hadn't seen that line (sometimes I read too fast) but that's something that can be overcome with a feat or two.
Where are the Hellcat feats from?
Many people may not be allowed to take 3.5 feats.
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Out of curiosity, does the Vital Strike feat damage stack with Sneak Attack?Yes.
If so, I imagine that feat chain would be a good one for combat-oriented Rogues.
It's good if you have a large weapon and are often denied full-attacks. It gets a lot of hate on the site -- for reasons I can't understand, because "move not-straight & strike" is more common than not, and getting a free d10/d12/2d8/3d6 at the prerequisite cost of Power Attack (which you probably already have) is a total gimme. The tougher monsters in the Bestiary agree.
If your Acrobatics are good enough, you don't need Mobility.
And if your AC is high enough, you don't need hit points. :)
Acrobatics checks to avoid AoO while moving through enemy threatened areas are much harder in Pathfinder. The bigger the creature, the further the reach AND the greater the CMD. The more you need to avoid the AoO, the harder it seems to be.
Also, Mobility opens up Spring Attack which negates the need to make the Acrobatics check against the target. Pretty handy. The +4 AC boost is nice after the nimble rogue inevitably fail an Acrobatics check. Now, I'll admit that Mobility isn't stellar on its own, but with all these considerations, it's a solid choice.
Out of curiosity, does the Vital Strike feat damage stack with Sneak Attack? If so, I imagine that feat chain would be a good one for combat-oriented Rogues.
Depends on what you mean. You won't be doubling or tripling sneak attack dice, but you can make one attack using Vital Strike that is also a sneak attack (though this will probably only and a d6 or so, depending on the weapon).
If your Acrobatics are good enough, you don't need Mobility.
I wasn't talking about Mobility, I was talking about mobility. That just means your ability to move around on the battlefield. . . not the feat (:
The Mobility feat is kind of subpar for a rogue. Dodge->Mobility->Spring Attack is a different issue. Spring Attack is a feat that seems crappier on paper than it is in practice, especially against reach issues.
Where are the Hellcat feats from?
Many people may not be allowed to take 3.5 feats.
If your Acrobatics are good enough, you don't need Mobility.I wasn't talking about Mobility, I was talking about mobility. That just means your ability to move around on the battlefield. . . not the feat (:
The Mobility feat is kind of subpar for a rogue. Dodge->Mobility->Spring Attack is a different issue. Spring Attack is a feat that seems crappier on paper than it is in practice, especially against reach issues.
We have a heavily dex focused halfling rogue in our party who wears Celestial Armor, UMDs a wand of shield in round one of many fights (while moving into position and waiting for flanks to develop)...easily rocking a 34 AC (37 if the druid has buffed us with Barkskin). With Mobility (the feat) he doesn't have to waste his move with acrobatics (he's only a halfling after all...moving at half speed is a tough hit when you need to get into melee), but his AC ends up around 40 against AoOs from moving (we're level 11). It is pretty common practice for him to just suck up AoOs so that the rest of the party can maneuver if needed, since his character loves taunting things and believing he is untouchable (usually correct, but not always heh).
It is pretty common practice for him to just suck up AoOs so that the rest of the party can maneuver if needed, since his character loves taunting things and believing he is untouchable (usually correct, but not always heh).
Yeah Mobility is far from useless -- and I've seen the same "AoO-sucking" tactic. It's just that rogues can usually "get by" with haste mechanics and acrobatics. Also, Spring Attack causes Mobility's usefulness to diminish further. . . at least against the target you're hitting. In a scenario where there are lots of opponents with reach, Mobility still helps.