Intriguing...
So, the real question is, will England attack Scotland when it declares it's Independence from them in a few years? I hope Scotland names Sean Connery their king. FREEDOM!!!
As an Australian (minimalist)republican (that is a person who wants a republic not a supporter of the US republican party)I am interested.
Are the SNP pro European Union?
Are they left or right?
Are they a hodge podge of people who want an independent Scotland and are willing to set aside a political differences to achieve that goal?
Are they like the BNP and just hate everybody?
Would the SNP like to see a constitutional monarchy or a republic?
Are the SNP pro European Union?
Yes
Are they left or right?
left
Are they a hodge podge of people who want an independent Scotland and are willing to set aside a political differences to achieve that goal?
They are a consistent, long-standing political party
Are they like the BNP and just hate everybody?
Nope, not a racist/bigoted party in any sense (I'm sure they have their loonies, but the fringe appears to be very small. I've actually met more foaming-at-the-mouth members of Plaid Cymru than I have SNP supporters)
Would the SNP like to see a constitutional monarchy or a republic?
They'd keep the Queen.I hope those better-informed can correct/clarify any errors.
So essentially they want something that already exists in relation to the Dominions of Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Independent countries with the Monarch sitting at the head of a constitutional Democracy.
The impact of that on the United Kingdom would be negligible. So Scotland picks up the Euro and can decide for its self if it will send young men and women to die in English wars.
The SNP has my support.
Some developments over the weekend saw some concessions from Westminster on certain items that the Scottish parliament had been calling for.Holyrood now has the right to borrow up to £200 million a year for the next 10 years for public infrastructure.
Also the question of whether it would be legal for the Scottish parliament to call the referendum unilaterally has been ceeded by Westminster although there are splits showing in the coalition (oh really more splits in the coalition, who wudda thunk it) over this point.
War between Scotland and England over Scottish independence is eminent! The Scottish people need to stop bickering and start getting their military ready for a long and brutal struggle...
War between Scotland and England over Scottish independence is eminent! The Scottish people need to stop bickering and start getting their military ready for a long and brutal struggle...
Such a struggle would be more like the beginning of Gangs of New York, with each Scottish city declaring their presence, shrouded in tartan, bristling with irn-bru, bagpipage and sharpened golf clubs [shipped over by Trump to fund our rebellion]:
"The Mummers of Auld Reekie!"
"The Glasgae Patter Merchants"
"Aberdein's Dour Rowie Men"
"The Bridie Boys o' Jute City"
"The Bloody Sneckers"
...bampots and chibmen one an all...
Such a struggle would be more like the beginning of Gangs of New York, with each Scottish city declaring their presence, shrouded in tartan, bristling with irn-bru, bagpipage and sharpened golf clubs [shipped over by Trump to fund our rebellion]:
"The Mummers of Auld Reekie!"
"The Glasgae Patter Merchants"
"Aberdein's Dour Rowie Men"
"The Bridie Boys o' Jute City"
"The Bloody Sneckers"
...bampots and chibmen one an all...
Yes, and Prince William himself will lead the attack! Do not trust the English, my Scottish comrades! Prepare yourselves for a long, bloody conflict!
I think you mean imminent.
Yes, Aubrey, you understand the threat too. The war with England over Scottish Independence is coming soon, and the Scots need to be ready!
Guys..please don't rise to Leafar's bait..it only encourages him.
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As an Australian (minimalist)republican (that is a person who wants a republic not a supporter of the US republican party)I am interested.
Are the SNP pro European Union?
Are they left or right?
Are they a hodge podge of people who want an independent Scotland and are willing to set aside a political differences to achieve that goal?
Are they like the BNP and just hate everybody?
Would the SNP like to see a constitutional monarchy or a republic?
Are the SNP pro European Union?
Yes
Are they left or right?
left
Are they a hodge podge of people who want an independent Scotland and are willing to set aside a political differences to achieve that goal?
They are a consistent, long-standing political party
Are they like the BNP and just hate everybody?
Nope, not a racist/bigoted party in any sense (I'm sure they have their loonies, but the fringe appears to be very small. I've actually met more foaming-at-the-mouth members of Plaid Cymru than I have SNP supporters)
Would the SNP like to see a constitutional monarchy or a republic?
They'd keep the Queen.I hope those better-informed can correct/clarify any errors.
So essentially they want something that already exists in relation to the Dominions of Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Independent countries with the Monarch sitting at the head of a constitutional Democracy.
The impact of that on the United Kingdom would be negligible. So Scotland picks up the Euro and can decide for its self if it will send young men and women to die in English wars.
The SNP has my support.
Negligible?
It wouldn't even be the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland anymore!
The stuff about the Queen is the unimportant stuff that doesn't matter, the stuff about a massive section of a nation leaving the Union is not negligible.
This is not about the perverse charade that Scotland is some kind of dominion lorded over by the English gentry and evil characters from the 1950s. It's about a vocal minority in one part of a country campaigning for that part to split from the rest of the country.
Would you regard Western Australia's campaign for independence in such a relaxed manner?
Oh, and the bit about English wars is bit of a kick in the balls to all of the warmongering British Prime Ministers from Scotland over the years, including Blair and Brown.
Not that I'd especially mind if you kicked Blair.
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Scotland is a Labour heartland (notwithstanding the recent Scottish Parliament election, which would need to be replicated at Westminster) so arguably those "English" wars were at least as much Scottish, as plenty of Scottish MPs would have voted for it. And plenty of English (and Welsh, and Northern Irish, and others) have been killed or injured too.
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A Scottish Labour MP has sadly passed away so there will be a by election in Scotland soon. The seat should be safe (Cairns got 55% last year) but given last week's results who know what will happen.
As an Australian (minimalist)republican (that is a person who wants a republic not a supporter of the US republican party)I am interested.
Are the SNP pro European Union?
Are they left or right?
Are they a hodge podge of people who want an independent Scotland and are willing to set aside a political differences to achieve that goal?
Are they like the BNP and just hate everybody?
Would the SNP like to see a constitutional monarchy or a republic?
Are the SNP pro European Union?
Yes
Are they left or right?
left
Are they a hodge podge of people who want an independent Scotland and are willing to set aside a political differences to achieve that goal?
They are a consistent, long-standing political party
Are they like the BNP and just hate everybody?
Nope, not a racist/bigoted party in any sense (I'm sure they have their loonies, but the fringe appears to be very small. I've actually met more foaming-at-the-mouth members of Plaid Cymru than I have SNP supporters)
Would the SNP like to see a constitutional monarchy or a republic?
They'd keep the Queen.I hope those better-informed can correct/clarify any errors.
So essentially they want something that already exists in relation to the Dominions of Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Independent countries with the Monarch sitting at the head of a constitutional Democracy.
The impact of that on the United Kingdom would be negligible. So Scotland picks up the Euro and can decide for its self if it will send young men and women to die in English wars.
The SNP has my support.
Negligible?
It wouldn't even be the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland anymore!
The stuff about the Queen is the unimportant stuff that doesn't matter, the stuff about a massive section of a nation leaving the Union is not negligible.
This is not about the perverse charade that Scotland is some kind of dominion lorded over by the...
Ok the English wars thing was a cheap-shot :-)
The Yanks took the wind from the UK's sails during the Suez crisis. Since that time the UK has been the Americans little deputy in Europe it is not the great power anymore. Britannia does not rule the waves, Drake, Nelson and Jackie Fisher are spinning in their graves.
The British Empire is a faded old memory, and the Commonwealth is a club for countries that like Cricket.
The Empire abandoned its dominions economically as a condition of entering the common market. This caused some serious hard times and a lot of bitterness as it took time to forge new markets. With the Yanks dismantling old empires at the end of the world wars and the partitioning of countries, It would be impossible to put the British Empire back together.
England has only ruled Scotland for roughly 400 years of its roughly 1000 year history and has had it and lost it before.
The Scots as a people have the right to determine their own future and as part of a democracy they should be allowed to decide if they remain part of the United Kingdom. To deny them the right to self determination is tyrany.
As to my opinion of the WA separatists (all 8 of them) the East coast will happily say bugger off and do what you want - the tax payers in NSW and Victoria have been propping up WA for the last 100 years. They dont have the population and they dont have the infrastructure to make a go of it and if they did leave the Commonwealth of Australia the Chinese, Yanks, and Indians would strip mine WA from top to bottom and and spit out a battered used up failed state that would come begging to be let back in.
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As a descendant of one of the branches of Clan Stewart, I fully support a Free Scotland. I only hope that it will occur so I can someday take my children to visit the land of our ancestors that is free and independent.
As a fully signed up member of Clans Munro & MacNiel, I say go back to France you Stuart Wanabee!
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Been trying that for years now, all we get is misunderstanding of string theory.Just...go..AwayIf you thought we were competent when we didn't have the majority to get our policies through....just watch this space."Yu kan take oor Lifes but ya kanna take oor MGs!"
The first step is admitting you are wrong...well done.
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England has only ruled Scotland for roughly 400 years of its roughly 1000 year history and has had it and lost it before.
The Scots as a people have the right to determine their own future and as part of a democracy they should be allowed to decide if they remain part of the United Kingdom. To deny them the right to self determination is tyrany.
I completely agree that the Scots have the right to self-determination.
But you discussed independence and then declared that the SNP have your full support.
The SNP did not stand on an independence ticket and polling has consistently put support for independence at 25-30% in Scotland. That figure has not altered since the last election.
As others have said in this thread, support for the SNP was a vote for competence and charisma rather than independence. Scottish voters know that the SNP would have to have a referendum to demolish the union.
It is worth noting that the SNP is already beginning to sell an 'independence-lite' to try and make their cause seem more palatable and the first step has been to suggest that the British military would remain as a combined force.
I also find the notion that Scotland is a nation ruled by England to be faintly absurd. I don't have a horse in that particular race as I am a Welshman but it seems to me that since before I was born the Scots have played their part in the governance of these islands. There may be sides here (it's at least a d100) but there are no heroes and villains, goodies and baddies, just and opressed... that's not modern Britain.
England has only ruled Scotland for roughly 400 years of its roughly 1000 year history and has had it and lost it before.
The Scots as a people have the right to determine their own future and as part of a democracy they should be allowed to decide if they remain part of the United Kingdom. To deny them the right to self determination is tyrany.
I completely agree that the Scots have the right to self-determination.
But you discussed independence and then declared that the SNP have your full support.
The SNP did not stand on an independence ticket and polling has consistently put support for independence at 25-30% in Scotland. That figure has not altered since the last election.
As others have said in this thread, support for the SNP was a vote for competence and charisma rather than independence. Scottish voters know that the SNP would have to have a referendum to demolish the union.
It is worth noting that the SNP is already beginning to sell an 'independence-lite' to try and make their cause seem more palatable and the first step has been to suggest that the British military would remain as a combined force.
I also find the notion that Scotland is a nation ruled by England to be faintly absurd. I don't have a horse in that particular race as I am a Welshman but it seems to me that since before I was born the Scots have played their part in the governance of these islands. There may be sides here (it's at least a d100) but there are no heroes and villains, goodies and baddies, just and opressed... that's not modern Britain.
Fair enough. From what I can tell the Scots are looking for something like the Australian Federal system... Each former colony can make its own laws and decide on what projects the taxes raised and distributed can be spent. In exchange foreign affairs, foreign trade, the military, international and interstate transport are controlled by the Federal Government.
As Scotland has a lot of that already I cant see how huge the impact would be. I think the symbolism of the acknowledgment that Scotland is its own entity is what people want. Not the complications of nation reestablishment.
As for good guys and bad guys history is never black and white.
The Stuarts, the Auld Alliance, the Jacobites (Hello to some of my ancestors), the Clearances the breaking of Clans and so on the Scot on Scot self destruction was just as bad the some of the worst aspects English subjugation... but then the Scots did not try and destroy their own language and culture.
Being from Cymru you know how important it is to hold on to your identity and history and not be consumed by a monolithic Englishness.
Do you get a bit miffed when somebody calls you English?
As you mentioned the Scots voted for competence and charisma - but they also know full well that the SNPs cornerstone is Scottish independence. Maybe most Scots are opposed to a rapid and totally independent Scotland and are looking for a slow minimalist approach. Like I said before the symbolism is far more important than the mechanics.
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Well, if they know full well that the SNP wants Scottish independence, nevertheless independence is less popular an idea than the SNP. Bear in mind that an SNP government will not unanimously declare independence but put it to a referendum, which means you can vote "yes" to SNP and "no" to independence quite easily. Salmond's approach is gradualistic anyway - which is why he isn't promising full-on independence and emphasising a lot of continuity (like a shared Armed Forces, for example).
As for monolithic Englishness - there is no such thing. In England there is a definite North-South split which means that there are regional views, attitudes and cultures within England itself. I'm from London, my wife is from Yorkshire, and there are marked differences in our childhood experiences. Her family (while being very nice people) I would say have some marked cultural differences and attitudes to my own. So it is simplistic to say that there is "an" Englishness - there is a degree political control from London, but not necessarily a cultural uniformity. There isn't really a monolithic Welshness - the M4 corridor isn't the same as the rural north.
As for being called English - I'm English, and even I don't really like being called English. But then the only people who would call me English anyway would be foreigners. English is my language, not my cultural identity.
And the issue is anyway complicated by a shared heritage across the British Isles. I'm "English", but actually I'm 1/4 Welsh. Much of my mother's heritage is probably Scottish (my grandfather's middle names were Hamish Monteith). My dad is from Liverpool, my mum is from London. My surname is Norwegian for "hill". So what actually am I? British, actually, like a lot of people.
My surname is Norwegian for "hill"./QUOTE]
Any relation to sherpa Tenzing's friend?
Yes there was a difference and our little racist "Pestiferous Varmit" (Wodrow Wilsons opinion) Priminister Billy Huges was acting on his own.
Australia has been its own country since 1901.
"Wilson, a professor of jurisprudence and a former president of Princeton, had joined the war reluctantly and late. Not much interested in military affairs or the common soldier, he envisaged a peace based on decolonisation, disarmament and a League of Nations. Hughes, a former shearers' union organiser, had earned his law degree at 40, part-time. An eager warmonger, ‘the little digger' wanted to hang the Kaiser, reduce Germany to penury and parcel out its overseas possessions to the victors.
The bone of contention was German New Guinea. Wilson wanted it declared a trustee territory of his proposed league. It was Australia's strategic front door, Hughes reckoned, and the size of our casualty list entitled us to outright ownership. "Am I to understand that Australia is prepared to defy the opinion of the whole civilised world, Mr Hughes?" Wilson brusquely demanded.
Hughes fiddled with his hearing aid and pretended not to have heard. Wilson, dripping sarcasm, repeated the question. "That's about the size of it, Mr President," drawled Hughes.
In due course, on a glorious June day, the plenipotentiaries assembled in the Hall of Mirrors to affix their signatures and seals to the Treaty of Versailles. Australia got New Guinea, and the civilised world got the League of Nations. For the national seal, Hughes used a button from an Australian Army uniform."
If the French had had their way there would have been no WW2 because they want to break Germany up into its States like the Austro Hungarian Empire was.
Wodrow stuffed a lot of things up - I like his idealism but the US in comparison to all the other participants suffered little and made a big fat profit.
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England can take your lives, Wellard, but they cannot take your souls! FREE SCOTLAND!!!I refer you to my previous comment re the Dingo
Of course, it means that England will declare war against Scotland, so the Scottish had better start preparing themselves for a long, bloody war against Great Britain.
How they will remember the battle of vomit alley between angus's fish and chipy and mactavish's pub...
Like any good pub event, if you can remember it you weren't there.