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Hi all! I'm new to the forums, so forgive me if I failed to find a thread that already answered these questions. Anyway, being new-ish to Pathfinder (and with no 3.5 experience, which I'm actually starting to believe is a blessing, but I digress), I've recently built my first fighter, a level-1 human who likes to do combat maneuvers (current feats are Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, and the less-relevant-to-this-post Dodge). While examining possible options for the next few levels, I've come up with some questions that I hope can be answered here. Thanks in advance for your help, and here we go:
1. Certain combat maneuvers, including Disarm and Trip, can be made "in place of a melee attack". Once I hit level 4, if I get Whirlwind Attack, I can make a melee attack against every adjacent enemy. Does that mean what I think it means? I.e., I could use W.A. to make a disarm or trip attempt against every adjacent enemy? I can't find a reason to think it *doesn't* work, aside from "too awesome to be fo' realz".
2. Regarding fighting with two weapons: suppose I have a main-hand flail and an off-hand sickle (light weapon) and the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, making the penalties -2 each. Assume my BAB is still under 6. Now, the CR says in one place that you need to make a full-attack action in order to get your off-hand attack. It says elsewhere that you can make one attack first, then after seeing the result, decide whether to continue with further attacks or take a move action instead. However, if I have a weapon in each hand as described above, wouldn't I need to decide *before* I made the first attack roll, so I would know whether or not to apply the -2 penalty to it? The only thing I can think of to reconcile this is that perhaps you take those penalties constantly just for *carrying* a second weapon, regardless of whether you actually use it that round or not. However, that gets you into trouble with shields and the fact that you *could* do a shield bash - using two-weapon fighting rules - but until you decide to do so you're not taking the related penalties... are you? Or did I just find a tiny wording "glitch" in the CR and if I decide to carry two weapons around but not always use both, I need to "commit" before each attack?
3. Exactly when do AoO's occur in relation to the actions that provoke them? Specifically, say I disarm someone and they attempt to pick up their weapon, provoking an attack from me. Would they have the weapon in their hands by the time I attacked (thus allowing me to use the AoO to re-disarm them)? Or would I hit before they got their weapon, making trip a better option for my attack?
4. I was fighting a boss character, and had disarmed her. The GM said she used a "combat trick" (and I saw him roll a d20) to kick the weapon back up to her hands without provoking an AoO. I couldn't find such a thing in the CR or PRD. Should I be skeptical? Or is it likely that an enemy has such a move? Note that this was Pathfinder Society, so no house rules. Not that I'm upset - rather, if my character inspired "fudging", then I might want to minimize the frequency of my combat maneuvers (which will affect future feat choices) so my GM can have fun too.
Sorry for rivaling War and Peace in my verbosity. I just like to be clear. :D
Thanks!
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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(3)No, you can't disarm-loop, or trip-loop.
Could you perhaps elaborate/be more explicit on that one? From your answer (especially the "no", as I didn't ask a yes-or-no question exactly), I don't feel like I really understand the AoO timing that I was unsure about in the first place.
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Could you perhaps elaborate/be more explicit on that one? From your answer (especially the "no", as I didn't ask a yes-or-no question exactly), I don't feel like I really understand the AoO timing that I was unsure about in the first place.(3)No, you can't disarm-loop, or trip-loop.
AoO occur a split instant BEFORE the event that triggers them. This is what allows you to disrupt spellcasting. But it means that you can't trip someone as they stand up from a trip as when the AoO goes off they're still considered prone. Of course, that does mean you get a bonus to hit them.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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AoO occur a split instant BEFORE the event that triggers them. This is what allows you to disrupt spellcasting. But it means that you can't trip someone as they stand up from a trip as when the AoO goes off they're still considered prone. Of course, that does mean you get a bonus to hit them.Could you perhaps elaborate/be more explicit on that one? From your answer (especially the "no", as I didn't ask a yes-or-no question exactly), I don't feel like I really understand the AoO timing that I was unsure about in the first place.(3)No, you can't disarm-loop, or trip-loop.
Then this would mean that if I disarm him first, and then when he reaches for his weapon I do an AoO trip, that would work? Or the reverse: if I start by tripping him, then as he gets up, I could use the AoO to disarm him? Am I understanding this right?
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For item 2, you do have to decide to take the penalty before attacking. If, however your attack hits and kills the target, you are not stuck. You can not take your second attack and move instead. (as long as you only made the one attack and did not move earlier, even 5' foot step)
For item 3. As wth the explaination for trip, it is the same for a disarm. You get your attack right before he grabs the weapon, so you are not able to use the AAO to disarm him. (Might want to look at ready option though)
Item 4, I do not know of any published rules that allow this. The only thing I can thing of is the general rule of a combat maneuver. When you try to do something in combat againt a foe, pitting your CMB to his CMD (Even if you are not intereacting with him, like using acrobatic to avoid AAO). It a player asked for a way to get his weapon, I could see a DM using that mechanic to simulate it. As I said earlier though, I don;t think there is trick in the rules that allow that particular task.
Then this would mean that if I disarm him first, and then when he reaches for his weapon I do an AoO trip, that would work? Or the reverse: if I start by tripping him, then as he gets up, I could use the AoO to disarm him? Am I understanding this right?
Yes, both of those situations work fine.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Okay, so to sum up:
1. Yes, I can whirlwind-maneuver.
2. I decide whether or not I'm in two-hand "mode" before making any attack rolls.
3. AoO's happen right before the triggering event, so I can't loop just one maneuver, but I could follow up one with the other (between disarm and trip).
4. May have been a GM contrivance, so I should be careful of killing his fun in future sessions.
Thanks everyone!
Regarding 4, I've seen various forms of combat actions handled as opposed CMB vs CMD checks. However, if he used a move-action to pick up the weapon, it's conceivable that you could make a check similar to a tumble check to avoid AoOs (which itself is also opposed by the CMD, so much like a CMB vs CMD check).
I think a GM is perfectly in his rights to do this, provided that PCs can do it too at his table. Any action that normally provokes AoOs should be able to be performed in a way that does not provoke. If my hero can flikflak somersault passed 10 enemies, he damn well also be able to pick up a stupid item off the ground infront of him.
One other comment on the "weapon trick". Since this is society play it may have been a bit of "DM story telling".
But it is not uncommon for boss type fights to have abilities that are not normal... but are written into the adventure. Many of the Paizo Adventure Paths have bad guys that get to do something based upon their write up. I know rogues have a "Kip" talent that lets them stand up without provoking... it could be that if this character was a Pirate/Swashbuckler type of rogue that he had a special talent along those lines letting him retrieve a item without provoking.
And finally welcome to the game and have fun!
In my game, we are pretty liberal with the use of acrobatics since it lets you move in a threatened square without provoking an AoO. For example, you can stand from prone with out provoking an AoO with a successful Acrobatics check. In our game, we'd allow you to foot your weapon like that with an acrobatics check.
1) Yep, you can Disarm and Trip on a whirlwind attack. You might be able to sunder too, but there's an ongoing debate on that which I don't want to re-open in this thread. All other combat maneuvers are standard actions, so wouldn't qualify.
2) You need to make a full attack to get both attacks, but after making the frist one (and taking the -2 penalty to it), you can choose to move instead of making the second one. If you make attacks of opportunity, you can choose which weapon to make them with, and you do not suffer the -2 penalty if it isn't your turn.
3) The AoO occurs right before the action, so they're still prone if re-tripped, still weaponless if re-disarmed, or still haven't cast the spell/drank the potion.
4) Nothing I know of that's society-legal would allow this. There are weapon tricks in the Adventurer's Armory, and skill tricks in 3.5's Complete Scoundrel, but neither book has one which would let you retrieve your dropped weapon. There are weapon cords, though, but those are automatic as a swift action. So I suspect fudging. As a GM, I will certainly admit it's irritating when a PC takes a major enemy out of the fight immediately, but I usually just roll with it - they built their character to be able to do that, at the expense of being able to do other things, so I shouldn't penalize them for it.
3) The AoO occurs right before the action, so they're still prone if re-tripped, still weaponless if re-disarmed, or still haven't cast the spell/drank the potion.If you mean you can use your AoO to retrip or redisarm, that is wrong.
No, I just wasn't clear. I meant that they're still prone when you attempt to trip them (so you can't re-prone them) and they still haven't rearmed themselves when you disarm (so you can't re-disarm them).
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Regarding 4, I've seen various forms of combat actions handled as opposed CMB vs CMD checks. However, if he used a move-action to pick up the weapon, it's conceivable that you could make a check similar to a tumble check to avoid AoOs (which itself is also opposed by the CMD, so much like a CMB vs CMD check).
It seems relevant, then, that the GM never asked me for my CMD.
Based on your and others' comments, it sounds like it's pretty likely that he didn't want the boss being so easily defeated and fudged to counteract my character. (If anyone's curious enough and has access to it, it was the boss at the end of Shades of Ice Part 3.)
So what do I do now? I mean, I don't want to call him out on it and have tension with the only Society GM anywhere near where I live (and who also is a nice guy in general, one with whom I'd like to be on good terms just because). Relatedly, I also don't want to make PFS un-fun for the GM. But on the other hand, I don't want to play a character who's essentially got 2 fewer feats than he's supposed to because I spent them on something I don't actually get to do.
Any suggestions?
Any suggestions?
If it was just the boss, don't sweat it. It's not going to happen that often.
Also if it's been made up, ask about the specifics of the rulings, so you can know how to plan for it. Not so unreasonable since your character has now 'seen it in action'. Greater Disarm send their weapon flying, so that's an option.Also, if you like the idea, ask if you can use it yourself :)
Also also also wik: If the battle was fun and challenging, applaud your GM for the fight. Balancing the fight to the combatants so that it's still FUN is as difficult as it is rewarding.
IF, however, you felt like your character is being shut-down (which it doesn't sound like, but I wasn't there), you should sit down with the GM and try to figure out a balance.