Belt of giant strength - and perhaps others


Rules Questions


Okay, so under Belt of giant strenght it says that after 24 hours of wear the ability bonus turns into a permanent ability score increase. Does this then mean that after you wear said belt for more than a day, then you can actually get yet another bonus by having bull strength cast on you.. Normally those two wouldn't stack, but after reading that wording I'm in doubt.

Also, does that "rule" go for any magical items granting ability modifiers?


No you don't get an additional bonus. It just means the bonus is a temporary one when you first put it on.


What's the actual game difference between a temporary bonus compared to the non-temporary then?

Dark Archive

wraithstrike wrote:
No you don't get an additional bonus. It just means the bonus is a temporary one when you first put it on.

Yup. This distinction between temporary and permanent becomes really important for Int/Wis/Cha enhancing items, as they also influence spellcasting abilities (and skill points, for Int).

The ability score enhancement from the item goes away with the removal of said item.


No.

After a temporary ability bonus increase becomes permanent, it still remains the bonus of same type. In this case, an enhancement bonus.

It doesn't stack with other bonuses of same type (Bull's Strength in this case) when it becomes permanent.

Permanent bonus on strength doesn't differ much from temporary bonus, but permanent bonus on intelligence allows wizards to gain additional spells, new skills, a language and such.

Temporary bonus to intelligence: Temporary increases to your Intelligence score give you a bonus on Intelligence-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence.

That means that impact of this rule is higher for certain ability scores, in my example, the intelligence.

The rule was invented to prevent constant swapping of items that grant an increase of ability scores for full benefit.


Awesome.. Thanks for the clarification

Silver Crusade

That can be important to qualify for feats that might require a certain strength score. However if you take off the belt then you would no longer be qualified for the feat.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
HansiIsMyGod wrote:


Permanent bonus on strength doesn't differ much from temporary bonus, but permanent bonus on intelligence allows wizards to gain additional spells, new skills, a language and such.

Just to clarify, you don’t get additional skills except the ones linked to the intelligence magic item. You can’t ‘pick’ new ones.

Same applies for a new language. You don’t get a new language (or languages) unless Linguistics is one of the skills on the intelligence boosting magic item.

I’m sure that’s what you were getting at with your post, just clarifying it for the OP.


Hobbun wrote:

Just to clarify, you don’t get additional skills except the ones linked to the intelligence magic item. You can’t ‘pick’ new ones.

Same applies for a new language. You don’t get a new language (or languages) unless Linguistics is one of the skills on the intelligence boosting magic item.

Yeah, you also don't get extra languages for increasing your intelligence (say, for example, through the stat boosts from leveling). You start out with bonus languages based on intelligence, and only Linguistics ranks add more.

If the headband has Linguistics as the skill, though, does it grant languages? I don't think it does. That would make for an odd possibility to abuse it with the re-equipping and re-selecting languages (something the intelligence headbands were built to avoid). I think it would just count towards using the Linguistics skill, not granted languages.

If you ruled that it did grant languages, however, you'd have to build a list of what languages it grants at each rank, so that they can't do the re-selecting bit. And if you have one of the languages it grants already, too bad (just as if you had ranks in the skill a headband grants ranks in, too bad).


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Nigrescence wrote:


Yeah, you also don't get extra languages for increasing your intelligence (say, for example, through the stat boosts from leveling). You start out with bonus languages based on intelligence, and only Linguistics ranks add more.

If the headband has Linguistics as the skill, though, does it grant languages? I don't think it does. That would make for an odd possibility to abuse it with the re-equipping and re-selecting languages (something the intelligence headbands were built to avoid). I think it would just count towards using the Linguistics skill, not granted languages.

If you ruled that it did grant languages, however, you'd have to build a list of what languages it grants at each rank, so that they can't do the re-selecting bit. And if you have one of the languages it grants already, too bad (just as if you had ranks in the skill a headband grants ranks in, too bad).

Well, by RAW I would say it does add extra languages because as far as I know, there is nothing in the rules that says otherwise. You are receiving the benefits of the Linguistics skill, which allows for added languages for each rank. However, even though it doesn’t allow you to do the reselecting of languages, it still doesn’t avoid the screwy “Today I know Draconic, tomorrow I don’t. But wait, I know Draconic again 24 hours later. Wait, I don’t know it again.” etc.

But using common sense, I would agree with you it shouldn’t add the language(s) for the reasons you stated.

I would think it is fair for the solution you indicated, and that is having a specific list of languages linked to the Linguistics skill (that is on the magic item). However, even though it doesn’t allow you to do the reselecting of languages, it still doesn’t avoid the screwy “Today I know Draconic, tomorrow I don’t. But wait, I know Draconic again 24 hours later. Wait, I don’t know it again.” etc.

Edit: But then this is fantasy. So I guess it isn't all that screwy. At least no more screwy than one day having bonus spells and another day not having them.


Hobbun wrote:

However, even though it doesn’t allow you to do the reselecting of languages, it still doesn’t avoid the screwy “Today I know Draconic, tomorrow I don’t. But wait, I know Draconic again 24 hours later. Wait, I don’t know it again.” etc.

Edit: But then this is fantasy. So I guess it isn't all that screwy. At least no more screwy than one day having bonus spells...

I don't see how that's any more screwy than "today I'm a master ship builder, tomorrow I'm not." Languages doesn't seem more or less odd to me.

Sovereign Court

Yeah, I would figure you would create a list of languages, and don't understand how it wold be screwy since it will follow all the same rules for the headband that skills use anyway. They are permanent and set upon creation of the item.

Q: How would a headband of Int with Linguistics associated with it react with a gnome that has the Gift of Tongues racial ability.

Gift of Tongues: Gnomes love languages and learning about those they meet. Gnomes with this racial trait gain a +1 bonus on Bluff and Diplomacy checks, and they learn one additional language every time they put a rank in the Linguistics skill.


OilHorse wrote:

Yeah, I would figure you would create a list of languages, and don't understand how it wold be screwy since it will follow all the same rules for the headband that skills use anyway. They are permanent and set upon creation of the item.

Q: How would a headband of Int with Linguistics associated with it react with a gnome that has the Gift of Tongues racial ability.

Gift of Tongues: Gnomes love languages and learning about those they meet. Gnomes with this racial trait gain a +1 bonus on Bluff and Diplomacy checks, and they learn one additional language every time they put a rank in the Linguistics skill.

I would say that you build the language list for every level, and that Gift of the Tongues adds the list for every rank as the headband, but at twice the rate.

So let's say it's a Headband of INT +2 (Linguistics).
The language list for the sake of argument assumes only that everyone speaks Common, so let's give it in alphabetical order on the Languages list for simplicity...
Abyssal, Aklo, Aquan, Auran, Celestial, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Gnoll, etc.

Let's use a level 5 character.

A normal level 5 character (assuming that they have NO ranks in Linguistics to start with) would gain Abyssal, Aklo, Aquan, Auran, and Celestial. If they already had one of those languages, then tough luck, and they just have a language overlap. If they already have ranks in Linguistics, let's say 1 rank, then they start at Abyssal and only go up to Auran granted through the headband.

A Gnome level 5 character with Gift of Tongues would (assuming no ranks in Linguistics) gain at the rate of TWO languages, in order, on the list.
So they'd gain Abyssal, Aklo, Aquan, Auran, Celestial, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, and Gnome. Even if they already have Gnome, the headband list is built this way, so it's just a wasted rank language gain, but they still get the benefit of their Gift of Tongues. If they already had ranks in Linguistics, start the list at the beginning of the ranks granted by the headband.

Now, not all headbands with Linguistics as the skill will be built in alphabetical order of languages granted, but this was done for the sake of simplicity.

This is how I'd do it, if I'd even allow a headband with Linguistics as the skill to grant languages (and I probably would allow that).

Does that make sense? I think it does.

Liberty's Edge

Quote:
The ability score enhancement from the item goes away with the removal of said item.

I have a bit of a problem with this part. From a roleplay perspective at least, this makes the item worth very little by RAW. When the character sleeps or bathes or is engaged in other bedroom activities, no one is going to be wearing their gear at all times. It's just ludicrous to think a character is going to be wearing a headband or belt or gloves when they are not adventuring or just relaxing in their "safe" place.

To account for this I rule that as long as the item has been properly attuned, and remains in the characters possession (does not necessarily mean on the person) then while the item is not worn, the bonuses are not applied, but as soon as they put the item back on, they do not have to spend the 24 hours to re-attune and receive full benefit of the item.

To me, this properly reflects the disadvantage of not having the item worn, but also removes the ridiculous attunement requirement every time the item is removed.

Dark Archive

Removing as in "losing possession of". So, not wearing it after the 8 hours of sleep, not donning it after a bath, etc.
I agree with the attunement HR.

TBH, that kind of micro-management of mechanics and roleplay seems to me more punitive than useful - unless a very specific situation calls for this level of attention.
It's the "why there no rules for nature calling in my RPG" or "sorry can't cast the fireball, I rolled a 03 on the corporal functions table, my mage need to pee badly!" syndrome.

Which means that no RAW should be needed at all, that is. ;)


Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I don't have a problem w/ a Headband of Int granting access to languages. An item that allows you to speak Orc only when worn seems much more mundane than an item that allows you to shoot jets of flame from your hands or bring someone back from the dead.

One issue I have is the idea that you can qualify for feats with magic items. I wouldn't allow a player to get power attack if their natural Sta was below 13, irregardless of the belt of giant's strength he has on.

As a follow up, if you did allow the aforementioned character to qualify for Power attack using his belt of giant strength and he looses it what do you do with his feats? Can he still use Power Attack? what about feats that have power attack as a prerequisite like Improved Bull Rush. If memory serves (don't have my book in front of me) Imp Bull Rush has no strength prerequisite, so can he still benefit from it? Can he select a feat that has Power Attack as a Prerequisite if he no longer has the 13 sta needed to get PA in the first place?


j b 200 wrote:
As a follow up, if you did allow the aforementioned character to qualify for Power attack using his belt of giant strength and he looses it what do you do with his feats? Can he still use Power Attack? what about feats that have power attack as a prerequisite like Improved Bull Rush. If memory serves (don't have my book in front of me) Imp Bull Rush has no strength prerequisite, so can he still benefit from it? Can he select a feat that has Power Attack as a Prerequisite if he no longer has the 13 sta needed to get PA in the first place?

If you lose the prerequisite for the feat, you cannot use the feat, and if this feat is a prerequisite for other feats, you cannot use those other feats either. When you regain the prerequisite, you can use the initial feat again, along with the other feats built off it.

I don't know where it is stated, but I know that magic items can be used to meet prerequisites, and it can be a bit of a gamble since losing the item loses (at least temporarily) the use of the feat.

Dark Archive

HansiIsMyGod wrote:

No.

After a temporary ability bonus increase becomes permanent, it still remains the bonus of same type. In this case, an enhancement bonus.

It doesn't stack with other bonuses of same type (Bull's Strength in this case) when it becomes permanent.

Permanent bonus on strength doesn't differ much from temporary bonus, but permanent bonus on intelligence allows wizards to gain additional spells, new skills, a language and such.

Temporary bonus to intelligence: Temporary increases to your Intelligence score give you a bonus on Intelligence-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence.

That means that impact of this rule is higher for certain ability scores, in my example, the intelligence.

The rule was invented to prevent constant swapping of items that grant an increase of ability scores for full benefit.

Now this does lead to a question one of my Witches is about to have. While the +4 Int/Wis bonus Threefold Aspect Grants and the Duration it has (24 Hours) by default not letting the Witch learn new spells from that is understood but what if the Witch re-casts the spell before the duration is up to reset the duration ?

Example:
Day 1 witch memorizes 3fold aspect twice and casts it at noon for a full day of adventuring. At midnight before going to bed he re-casts it to set the Duration back to the full 24 hrs and goes to bed. Repeat this re-cast every day before bed.

Example 2: Same witch casts it with the Extend metamagic feat instead to get it to last longer then 24hrs.

Do they get the extra spells then?

Dark Archive

No, the permanent modifications (spells, skill points, etc.) related to ability enhancement are the province of magic items, not spells - which are limited to the temporary kind of bonuses.

It's not something directly tied to the duration, even if the effect covers a more or less continuous 24h span.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
karkon wrote:
That can be important to qualify for feats that might require a certain strength score. However if you take off the belt then you would no longer be qualified for the feat.

Or any other feats, classes etc. that said feat was pre-req for.


j b 200 wrote:


One issue I have is the idea that you can qualify for feats with magic items. I wouldn't allow a player to get power attack if their natural Sta was below 13, irregardless of the belt of giant's strength he has on.

As a follow up, if you did allow the aforementioned character to qualify for Power attack using his belt of giant strength and he looses it what do you do with his feats? Can he still use Power Attack? what about feats that have power attack as a prerequisite like Improved Bull Rush. If memory serves (don't have my book in front of me) Imp Bull Rush has no strength prerequisite, so can he still benefit from it? Can he select a feat that has Power Attack as a Prerequisite if he no longer has the 13 sta needed to get PA in the first place?

As already mentioned, you lose access to any feats and abilities you no longer qualifies for. Personally I have no problem with PCs qualifying through magic items... they are taking a risk. At best they've just spend their feats like everyone else. If something happens to their belt/headband/whatever, they could lose a whole feat tree for the duration. As the risk is pretty significant compared to the reward (how good is power attack really for a strength 12 character), I'd have no issue with this at all, as a DM.


Slaunyeh wrote:
j b 200 wrote:


One issue I have is the idea that you can qualify for feats with magic items. I wouldn't allow a player to get power attack if their natural Sta was below 13, irregardless of the belt of giant's strength he has on.

As a follow up, if you did allow the aforementioned character to qualify for Power attack using his belt of giant strength and he looses it what do you do with his feats? Can he still use Power Attack? what about feats that have power attack as a prerequisite like Improved Bull Rush. If memory serves (don't have my book in front of me) Imp Bull Rush has no strength prerequisite, so can he still benefit from it? Can he select a feat that has Power Attack as a Prerequisite if he no longer has the 13 sta needed to get PA in the first place?

As already mentioned, you lose access to any feats and abilities you no longer qualifies for. Personally I have no problem with PCs qualifying through magic items... they are taking a risk. At best they've just spend their feats like everyone else. If something happens to their belt/headband/whatever, they could lose a whole feat tree for the duration. As the risk is pretty significant compared to the reward (how good is power attack really for a strength 12 character), I'd have no issue with this at all, as a DM.

So if you take it the item off, even just to sleep, how would you keep the permanent bonus? This is especially important with Int boosts since that's extra skills, but temp Str lacks the boost to carry capacity, and permanent boosts are required to gain any added spells from any ability.


HappyDaze wrote:
So if you take it the item off, even just to sleep, how would you keep the permanent bonus? This is especially important with Int boosts since that's extra skills, but temp Str lacks the boost to carry capacity, and permanent boosts are required to gain any added spells from any ability.

I think you're getting a little carried away here. I would say with normal use of the belt the player gets the benefit, even if they take it off for a length of time. Would you really penalize a player for bathing? I would say if the player were separated from the item for longer than 24 hours, then it would be an issue. Anything less than that is unecessarily restrictive. Stop picking the rules apart until they fail for everybody. If you keep it general and stop trying to have rules for bowel movements, we'll be ok.


hey i have a question regarding gear upgrade, can i upgrade a Belt of Giant Strength +2 into a Belt, Minotaur?
im cheking the CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS and it only have another special ability from the bulls strength of the Belt of the Giant strength to the bull’s strength, feather step of the Minotaur belt

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Yes. The Minotaur Belt is just a Belt of Giant’s Strength with some extras. As always though check with your GM first when upgrading/customizing items.


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Six years of uninterrupted sleep.


And if i want to upgrade the minotaur belt to a gorgon belt its also posible or not?? Cus its shows as a named item but iy has the same abilities upgraded and an aditional one so i juat want to know cus the other option is going from the Belt of Giant Strength +2 to a Belt of Giant Strength +4 then to the gorgon belt.

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