Harrowstone -- What do you do if the PCs can't research? (GMs Only)


Carrion Crown

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

So after many false starts we finally got our first session of the Haunting of Harrowstone and it went extremely well.

In the first encounter the Druid used Entangle and stopped the mob cold. They went back to read the will and got all the clues and understood what to do and where to go next. However ... it was only then that the PCs realized that they had no knowledge skills at all.

Other than Knowledge (Nature) not a single PC had any Knowledge skills they could use to research ... which brings me to an interesting dilemma on what to do now. They obviously want to do research on Harrowstone, WW, and the five, but with no skills to do this how should I handle this exactly?

I would guess they could use untrained Knowledge skills, but wouldn't that mean that they couldn't get anything above DC 10? Or should I just let them do research and using untrained rolls be able to get above DC 10?

The good news is that my PCs are really interested in learning more, but they literally don't have the means to do so.

On a side note none of them speak Varisian which is also going to be problematic throughout this adventure. My players build their PCs for hardcore combat ... which might come in handy later but I have a feeling they are going to have rough going for their first few levels...

Any feedback/suggestions would be welcome, thanks!


Force them to hire a sage....

1e rules again!

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
KenderKin wrote:

Force them to hire a sage....

1e rules again!

Hum, that is an excellent idea. Although considering how much people from Ravengro hate outsiders I'm not quite sure if that would work. Or even who they could hire and how much that person would cost (haven't done NPC hiring rules in a long time ... probably since 1e!)

I guess they could have Kandra help them out, but I would think she would be busy putting her affairs in order and I don't want the PCs to become too dependent upon her...

Sczarni

KenderKin wrote:

Force them to hire a sage....

1e rules again!

I havn't actually gotten to read this book yet, but here's my suggestion based on how you present it: RP it with the skills they do have. Do they have high Diplomacy? they can try to elicit help. Perception? they can help someone else find a particular book once they have help, or notice particular things about the clues that will assist in the research.

A good example of this is in the PFS scenario "The Pallid Plague" (a good read for 3.99)

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16

They're only level 1. Let them feel the stress of not knowing anything, and let them know it will be a recurring problem. They'll level up soon enough. At that point, they should pick up the hint that KnowledgeArcana will get more use than Climb, and from then on, they party should be good to go.

Parties that don't adapt to in-game situations and just have a white-knuckle grasp on to "power builds" are lame. Don't encourage it.

Grand Lodge

No knowledge at all really is a problem. I had to slow my group down to overcome the issue as they had knowledge left, right and centre.

So let's see what can be done:

A) untrained knowledge skills. If you have a library that covers a specific skill, then the DC 10 limit is removed. Rulebook p.100

So even untrained they still have a change to get some information. It takes them 1d4 hours for a single check and they need to roll high.

B) you can get all information up to DC 15 Via Diplomacy as well

Beyond that - they will struggle with DC25 until they are level 2. Let them struggle, but try to let them back and give them good reasons to research.

As my game is PBP you can read up how it worked out for me. What you like, what you would do different.

Thod

Edit: I just checked back. The Lorrimor place will count as library for the Whispering Way. They will have to get to the other places to research other topics with DC10+ Let them play it out. Each place has it's own rules to get access. Don't make it impossible for them but let them know for research they need a library or something that acts as such. There is the town hall, the wizard and the temple.

Sovereign Court

Did they not read the CC Player's Guide? I thought it was pretty good at recommending knowledge skills for each class.

--I wanna Vrock. VROCK!


Stonesnake wrote:
. . . My players build their PCs for hardcore combat ... which might come in handy later but I have a feeling they are going to have rough going for their first few levels...

This is the problem. This first adventure module is definitely a mystery story, I haven't read my 2nd book yet but I'm going to go ahead and venture a guess that the entire adventure path is going to be like this to some extent.

Also to directly answer your question about untrained, the 'libraries' in Ravengro specifically allow you to roll untrained and give bonuses. For instance, the module states:

Quote:
There are four locations in Ravengro that can be used to research— Kendra suggests all four, but warns the PCs that the locals might need some convincing before they allow strangers to use their libraries. Using any of these sites to research information about Harrowstone or the Whispering Way allows a character to make Knowledge checks untrained (although doing so negates any bonus on skill checks the research site might provide).

So

1: that means that your PCs now suddenly have the ability to roll up to a 20 on ALL of the Knowledge checks when using these sites.
2: You could also remove the last bit of the rules in (parathesis) and allow the sites to still provide their bonus.

If you don't do #2 above then definitely there's no way for the PCs to unlock the DC25 stuff, but honestly I think that stuff is there for story and not necessary. Also, if any of these PCs levels up and TAKES 1 (or 2, by that point they can put 2 ranks in - at level 2) into one of these Knowledges then suddenly the research sites again confer their bonuses. Then they can unlock them.

My PCs are almost level 2 before they have even set foot in Harrowstone Prison (which is also suggested in the module) and haven't a freaking clue that there even ARE 5 baddies that they should be researching.

Which is my way of saying, this is something that they could correct without rerolling. But that being said, I would point them at this awesome thread on how to role play horror and have them reroll into less heroes. :) But that's just me and that suggestion isn't likely to be particularly useful so ignore that bit.


Stonesnake wrote:

So after many false starts we finally got our first session of the Haunting of Harrowstone and it went extremely well.

In the first encounter the Druid used Entangle and stopped the mob cold. They went back to read the will and got all the clues and understood what to do and where to go next. However ... it was only then that the PCs realized that they had no knowledge skills at all.

Other than Knowledge (Nature) not a single PC had any Knowledge skills they could use to research ... which brings me to an interesting dilemma on what to do now. They obviously want to do research on Harrowstone, WW, and the five, but with no skills to do this how should I handle this exactly?

I would guess they could use untrained Knowledge skills, but wouldn't that mean that they couldn't get anything above DC 10? Or should I just let them do research and using untrained rolls be able to get above DC 10?

The good news is that my PCs are really interested in learning more, but they literally don't have the means to do so.

On a side note none of them speak Varisian which is also going to be problematic throughout this adventure. My players build their PCs for hardcore combat ... which might come in handy later but I have a feeling they are going to have rough going for their first few levels...

Any feedback/suggestions would be welcome, thanks!

I would have told the players that the game was filled with RP and skilled based situations before they began. If you told them this, and they refused to listen then that is on them.

If you failed to notice this then I would allow them to rebuild their characters to make up for it.


Does anyone have history or local? (i know they are knowledge skills but people dont treat them like they are)

What about diplomacy to get someone to tell them what they need to know? An oldtimer in town, properly diplomacized..."Back in my day.... Way back when..." etc etc.

In lieu of all that, couldn't you have information (like an extra journal) left in the forgotten crypt with the other stuff Lorimor left for the group? Detailing more of his own research?


Make them pay the "stupid tax" and hire someone........

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Lots of good ideas here, hopefully when they get to level 2 they start to put some points into other Knowledge skills.

Pendagast wrote:

Does anyone have history or local? (i know they are knowledge skills but people dont treat them like they are)

What about diplomacy to get someone to tell them what they need to know? An oldtimer in town, properly diplomacized..."Back in my day.... Way back when..." etc etc.

In lieu of all that, couldn't you have information (like an extra journal) left in the forgotten crypt with the other stuff Lorimor left for the group? Detailing more of his own research?

Nobody has History or Local. And one person has diplomacy, so it's not completely hopeless, and they DID use diplomacy to learn more about Harrowstone. But that will only get them so far, they can't get the "hard" stuff with diplomacy.

So it sounds like the best way to handle this is:

  • Unskilled checks but without the bonuses
  • Have them (hopefully) skill up on knowledge when they reach level 2
  • Have them hire someone to do the research for them

For the last option how much do you think the PCs should be charged for research? I know the rules for spellcasting and the like, but I couldn't find the rules for hiring an NPC for skill checks. I'm sure it's somewhere in the rules, I'm just not sure where...

Grand Lodge

10 for easy to find, commonly known stuff
50 for hard to find or not commonly known stuff
100 for Very hard stuff /Top draw stuff

As the attitude of the locals shifts away from the players, increase the cost.


What about asking your players to remake their characters, specifically reallocate skills...


Stonesnake wrote:

So after many false starts we finally got our first session of the Haunting of Harrowstone and it went extremely well.

In the first encounter the Druid used Entangle and stopped the mob cold. They went back to read the will and got all the clues and understood what to do and where to go next. However ... it was only then that the PCs realized that they had no knowledge skills at all.

Other than Knowledge (Nature) not a single PC had any Knowledge skills they could use to research ... which brings me to an interesting dilemma on what to do now. They obviously want to do research on Harrowstone, WW, and the five, but with no skills to do this how should I handle this exactly?

I would guess they could use untrained Knowledge skills, but wouldn't that mean that they couldn't get anything above DC 10? Or should I just let them do research and using untrained rolls be able to get above DC 10?

The good news is that my PCs are really interested in learning more, but they literally don't have the means to do so.

On a side note none of them speak Varisian which is also going to be problematic throughout this adventure. My players build their PCs for hardcore combat ... which might come in handy later but I have a feeling they are going to have rough going for their first few levels...

Any feedback/suggestions would be welcome, thanks!

The module states that the libraries allow pc's to make knowledge checks untrained but without the effective bonuses these libraries would otherwise provide. Other options include having Kendra assist them with research, hiring npcs to do research such as the wizard who runs the magic shop or perhaps create town hall or pharasmin temple archivist type npcs. Even in this case, you could keep the pc's involved by having them roll untrained to effectively aid another to the archivist in question.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Jon Kines wrote:


The module states that the libraries allow pc's to make knowledge checks untrained but without the effective bonuses these libraries would otherwise provide. Other options include having Kendra assist them with research, hiring npcs to do research such as the wizard who runs the magic shop or perhaps create town hall or pharasmin temple archivist type npcs. Even in this case, you could keep the pc's involved by having them roll untrained to effectively aid another to the archivist in question.

Ah, that might be the best solution of all. The PCs can hire NPCs but be "forced" to help in the research as an "aid another" action to help the NPC in the research. I think that will work perfectly as that way they get the benefit of spending time doing the research (which I want them to do rather than dump all the research onto someone else) and they can get a better roll on the charts. I think that will work out perfectly.


Do they 'have' to have the knowledge or can they just blunder through the dungeon?

Vesorianna tells the party a huge amount (alot of it redundant if already researched) plus a bunch you could never know by researching.... IF they find her early enough and don't miss her, it wont be that big of a deal.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Pendagast wrote:

Do they 'have' to have the knowledge or can they just blunder through the dungeon?

Vesorianna tells the party a huge amount (alot of it redundant if already researched) plus a bunch you could never know by researching.... IF they find her early enough and don't miss her, it wont be that big of a deal.

Sure they can do the entire adventure without learning a thing. But not only will the miss out on the excellent backstory (which I guess they can get from Vesorianna) but the bigger issue is that they will miss out on a ton of XP. The Knowledge XP alone is 3800 XP, which is not a small amount to make up in fighting creatures and the like at this level.

And if the PCs are to get to 4th level by the end of the adventure they're going to need every XP they can get as the entire adventure as by my calculations they can earn 10008 XP total, which is cutting it about as close as you can get to level 4 by the end of the adventure.

But I think through the suggestions above the PCs should be able to both learn the history and earn the necessary XP.


Stonesnake wrote:
Pendagast wrote:

Do they 'have' to have the knowledge or can they just blunder through the dungeon?

Vesorianna tells the party a huge amount (alot of it redundant if already researched) plus a bunch you could never know by researching.... IF they find her early enough and don't miss her, it wont be that big of a deal.

Sure they can do the entire adventure without learning a thing. But not only will the miss out on the excellent backstory (which I guess they can get from Vesorianna) but the bigger issue is that they will miss out on a ton of XP. The Knowledge XP alone is 3800 XP, which is not a small amount to make up in fighting creatures and the like at this level.

And if the PCs are to get to 4th level by the end of the adventure they're going to need every XP they can get as the entire adventure as by my calculations they can earn 10008 XP total, which is cutting it about as close as you can get to level 4 by the end of the adventure.

But I think through the suggestions above the PCs should be able to both learn the history and earn the necessary XP.

aLternatively you could award them the story point xp award when they deal (diplomacy) with vesorianna correctly, and have them interact, not just have her give them a soliloquy..


I did something slightly weird to deal with this problem. In addition to allowing each character to have a Lvl 1 pc class, I also allowed them to begin with a Lvl 1 NPC class.

I required that they spend their additional skill points on Knowledge, Profession and similar skills.

It's worked really well for this adventure. It buffs them just slightly (a few more HP mostly) but it gives them a lot of extra research and mystery-solving abilities.

Adept, aristocrat and expert are most applicable...

--Captain Marsh


Captain Marsh wrote:

I did something slightly weird to deal with this problem. In addition to allowing each character to have a Lvl 1 pc class, I also allowed them to begin with a Lvl 1 NPC class.

I required that they spend their additional skill points on Knowledge, Profession and similar skills.

It's worked really well for this adventure. It buffs them just slightly (a few more HP mostly) but it gives them a lot of extra research and mystery-solving abilities.

Adept, aristocrat and expert are most applicable...

--Captain Marsh

This seems like a really interesting idea, but it seems like a bit much to give them a whole extra HD, and it actually yields a HUGE amount of extra skill ranks (esp. if a character has a high INT). Maybe it would be better to say that each player gets 2 extra skill ranks -- one to spend on a knowledge skill and one to spend on a professional skill. This seems to make some sense, because Pathfinder is really pretty stingy with skill ranks. There is a logic to this in terms of advantaging certain classes in that area over time, but it makes it extremely difficult for many PCs to put ANY points into the types of background skills/knowledge that logically all characters will have. I have two PCs that would love to spend a skill point on sailing to reflect their backstory, but they just can't justify it for this campaign. In fact, I told them don't bother. But maybe with this modification they could.


I actually like to overpower my PCs a little bit so I can play my NPCs and monsters more ruthlessly...

-Marsh


I was stuck with this problem, but then I looked at Kendra thinking "She's a Diviner who's lived in this village, surely she might have the skills to help" and she does:

Kendra's skills wrote:


Knowledge (arcana) +8, Knowledge (history) +8

Which is perfect the most groups are generally friendly towards her or just her towards them as they knew her father, depending how you roleplayed it. She can easily do research of she sees the group as trushworthy, especially after finding the jurnal which is meant to interest the players and hint at something else being afoot.

Scarab Sages

My group did the bare minimum of research. So far they've been really good at figuring things out on their own. What they can't figure out, they've asked Kendra to help out with.

Scarab Sages

SPOILERS!!!

SPOILERS!!!

EVEN MORE SPOILERS:
It's gonna be a TPK. I thought they would ask Kendra do more research than on just the Whispering Way. They didn't. Instead, they ran straight to Harrowstone, found the pit into the lower level and are now fighting TSM. I described a sumoned octopus (the half-orc barbarian jumped into the pit (U11)) and now they believe that they are facing mindflayers. The ranger ran back out into the center room, the druid and the cleric found the secret door leading to the Gray Ooze, and the fighter and barbarian are about to jump in after the "mindflayer".


Sanakht Inaros wrote:

SPOILERS!!!

SPOILERS!!!

** spoiler omitted **

Hah! I don't know whether my PCs would have taken such a direct route, but I've discouraged them by making a local prohibition on entering Harrowstone without approval of the Council. I think they are still going to sniff around, but I think they've been deterred from overly charging forth. Please tell us how this all turns out!

Liberty's Edge

Voomer wrote:
Sanakht Inaros wrote:

SPOILERS!!!

SPOILERS!!!

** spoiler omitted **

Hah! I don't know whether my PCs would have taken such a direct route, but I've discouraged them by making a local prohibition on entering Harrowstone without approval of the Council. I think they are still going to sniff around, but I think they've been deterred from overly charging forth. Please tell us how this all turns out!

There IS always the option of taking 10 or 20. Given a character sitting down and spending far more time than normal, they coul;d take 10 or even 20. They could even assist each other and gain a few bonuses.

My players had the knowledge and diplomacy skills but seems everytime they rolled they fell flat on their face. So I let them take 20 when they got to research in the City Halls and they gained all the information about the 5 convicts in doing so. Now they have the information that will help them on there way plus the XP they gained, they made 2nd level

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Money talks.

No seriously, I don't care how much the townsfolk hate outsiders.

Consider using a rule of thumb about bribes for information.

5 GP for a +1 to Knowledge rolls.

I'm not sure, is there such a variant rule in the GM Guide?

Scarab Sages

I've all but hit them over the head with the idea of doing research. When they asked Kendra she gave them several leads and when they came back to down to remove some shackles and rest, she stressed the importance of doing the research. They ignored her and went back in anyway. We meet again on Saturday and with the party split, even if I pull punches, I think we'll be starting on new characters.


Sanakht Inaros wrote:
I've all but hit them over the head with the idea of doing research. When they asked Kendra she gave them several leads and when they came back to down to remove some shackles and rest, she stressed the importance of doing the research. They ignored her and went back in anyway. We meet again on Saturday and with the party split, even if I pull punches, I think we'll be starting on new characters.

I'm a GM who tends to be pretty sympathetic to the PCs, but your group seems like they need to be taught a lesson. If they are going to succeed in this AP, they need to be a little afraid...


Sanakht Inaros wrote:
I've all but hit them over the head with the idea of doing research. When they asked Kendra she gave them several leads and when they came back to down to remove some shackles and rest, she stressed the importance of doing the research. They ignored her and went back in anyway. We meet again on Saturday and with the party split, even if I pull punches, I think we'll be starting on new characters.

Sometimes you just have to lay the smack down.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
wraithstrike wrote:
Sometimes you just have to lay the smack down.

Well, yes and no. If you lay out the expectations ahead of time using the Player's Guide it might prevent such...painful situations.

I've often had to stop mid game and reassess what the players are focusing on.


TheLoneCleric wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Sometimes you just have to lay the smack down.
Well, yes and no.

That sounds likes sometimes to me. :)


Sounds like an excellent opportunity to introduce NPCs that you can use throughout the campaign.


wraithstrike wrote:
Sometimes you just have to lay the smack down.

+1

My PC's have so far avoided all possible encounters by travelling -individually-. Unfortunately if they continue Ima have to deal out some pain. GM's gotta do what a GM's gotta do :(


DanQnA wrote:
My PC's have so far avoided all possible encounters by travelling -individually-.

What does this mean? That they have "avoided encounters by traveling individually"?


TheLoneCleric wrote:

Money talks.

No seriously, I don't care how much the townsfolk hate outsiders.

Consider using a rule of thumb about bribes for information.

5 GP for a +1 to Knowledge rolls.

I'm not sure, is there such a variant rule in the GM Guide?

There is see GameMastery Chapter 7, City. Lucky guess, Ravengo is Corruption +0 so no mods to the check.


Voomer wrote:
What does this mean? That they have "avoided encounters by traveling individually"?

Well, at level one when they go everywhere on their own (they claim "maximum efficiency") it's hard to throw CR-appropriate encounters at them.

I 'may' have asked them on their preference to face a lich or death knight on their own...and they 'might' have subsequently got back together. :)


DanQnA wrote:
Voomer wrote:
What does this mean? That they have "avoided encounters by traveling individually"?

Well, at level one when they go everywhere on their own (they claim "maximum efficiency") it's hard to throw CR-appropriate encounters at them.

I 'may' have asked them on their preference to face a lich or death knight on their own...and they 'might' have subsequently got back together. :)

I would tell them that the world does not adjust to them. Whether there are 4 of them or 1 of them the same monsters will be there.

Scarab Sages

Results from yesterday: The fighter out of frustration attacked his name. Then he and the barbarian went to town and brought the walls down. They had one round of healing before TSM appeared. They ran after one round of combat against TSM. They decided they needed to do research. They took Kendra along and spent a couple days doing research. They also read through the Prof. journal and decided to check out the crypt he was talking about. It did take three attempts for them to beat him. So far, it's one down, four more to go.

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