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My GM is saying that when an animal companion is reincarnated, it is no longer an animal companion. He points to an article written by the 3.5 "The Sage:"
Hmm...Found this on the wizards 3.5 archive:
Bringing back the animal from the dead reestablishes the link between the two of you, and you need not locate or bind a new companion; however, the reincarnate spell is an exception. The spell brings back the animal as an independent being and the resulting creature is no longer an animal companion.
We use Pathfinder, not 3.5, but since Pathfinder is derived from 3.5, it's not a bad source for clarification. I'm hoping these forums help to clarify it.
It makes no sense to me for a Druid to have only the Reincarnate spell and not be able to use that on her companion.
Since we are on the Plane of Fire, where there are no animals, this is vital for our campaign, as the animal companion in question was one of the big damage dealers in our party (lion).
My GM is saying that when an animal companion is reincarnated, it is no longer an animal companion. He points to an article written by the 3.5 "The Sage:"
Hmm...Found this on the wizards 3.5 archive:
Bringing back the animal from the dead reestablishes the link between the two of you, and you need not locate or bind a new companion; however, the reincarnate spell is an exception. The spell brings back the animal as an independent being and the resulting creature is no longer an animal companion.
We use Pathfinder, not 3.5, but since Pathfinder is derived from 3.5, it's not a bad source for clarification. I'm hoping these forums help to clarify it.
It makes no sense to me for a Druid to have only the Reincarnate spell and not be able to use that on her companion.
Since we are on the Plane of Fire, where there are no animals, this is vital for our campaign, as the animal companion in question was one of the big damage dealers in our party (lion).
I think this operates on the assumption that it is entirely possible that the animal companion may get reincarnated as something like a bugbear, which is unsuitable to be an animal companion.
I would argue that, while it's not necessarily automatically the character's animal companion, nothing prohibits the druid from making the new creature its animal companion again after performing the appropriate rituals, so long as the form it takes is appropriate to such.
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This is completely out of the box, but when this came up in my most recent campaign (twice in fact, poor little guy), I created a custom reincarnation chart with only animal companions on it. I figured the existing chart is custom designed for the humanoids that the spell is designed to be used on. If the spell is being used on something significantly different than your run of the mill humanoid target, why not create an equally customized chart?
In my case the animal companion was a T-rex, so I created a chart with all of the reptilian and a few avian animal companions. Just like the standard chart in the book, there were results that would be cool to get, and a few that would kinda suck.
I think this operates on the assumption that it is entirely possible that the animal companion may get reincarnated as something like a bugbear, which is unsuitable to be an animal companion.
I would argue that, while it's not necessarily automatically the character's animal companion, nothing prohibits the druid from making the new creature its animal companion again after performing the appropriate rituals, so long as the form it takes is appropriate to such.
I would think that there should be a separate reincarnation table for non-sentient beings. I disagree with what the Sage says on the grounds that an animal companion is bound to a druid through a spiritual link. Granted, one can't have a bugbear companion as was mentioned, but that's why I think there should be a separate table.
If all you are doing is transferring the spirit of the creature to another suitable body, the link should remain intact. At least see if the roll grants a suitable body before claiming the link severed.
EDIT: Ninja'd. Great minds, eh?
My GM is saying that when an animal companion is reincarnated, it is no longer an animal companion. He points to an article written by the 3.5 "The Sage:"
Hmm...Found this on the wizards 3.5 archive:
Bringing back the animal from the dead reestablishes the link between the two of you, and you need not locate or bind a new companion; however, the reincarnate spell is an exception. The spell brings back the animal as an independent being and the resulting creature is no longer an animal companion.
We use Pathfinder, not 3.5, but since Pathfinder is derived from 3.5, it's not a bad source for clarification. I'm hoping these forums help to clarify it.
It makes no sense to me for a Druid to have only the Reincarnate spell and not be able to use that on her companion.
Since we are on the Plane of Fire, where there are no animals, this is vital for our campaign, as the animal companion in question was one of the big damage dealers in our party (lion).
An animal companion that is reincarnated actually changes subtypes and types, and it does have to be an animal in order to be an animal companion so the GM is correct. I would plane shift back to the material place.
PRD:First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments (since it is no longer necessarily of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores.
The GM could also say there was some type of zoo that had things from other planes there in order to get the lion back.
An animal companion that is reincarnated actually changes subtypes and types, and it does have to be an animal in order to be an animal companion so the GM is correct. I would plane shift back to the material place.PRD:First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments (since it is no longer necessarily of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores.
The GM could also say there was some type of zoo that had things from other planes there in order to get the lion back.
Race != type. That's like saying an Elf reincarnated into a Halfling is no longer Humanoid.
Here's a more relevant quote:
"For a humanoid creature, the new incarnation is determined using the table below. For nonhumanoid creatures, a similar table of creatures of the same type should be created."
It seems the intent is largely that an Animal should be reincarnated as an Animal, though the specifics seem to be left to the GM.
I like the idea of creating a table based on the available animal companions to where the party is. Since the OP indicated that they were on the Plane of Fire, I *might* even be tempted to apply the Elemental-Infused Creature (fire) template from Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary. That is, provided that the druid in question could find a suitable place to do their ceremony/meditation/et cetera. And since they are on Plane of Fire, I think I would *NOT* include dolphins.
Of course, I would not do this without talking to the player in question first.
Using the Animal Companions found in the core rulebook only, I came up with the following chart:
01-05...Ape
06-11...Badger (Wolverine)
12-17...Bear
18-19...Bird (Eagle)
20-21...Bird (Hawk)
22-23...Bird (Owl)
24-29...Boar
30-34...Camel
35-37...Cat, Big (Lion)
38-40...Cat, Big (Tiger)
41-43...Cat, Small (Cheetah)
44-46...Cat, Small (Leopard)
47-52...Crocodile (Alligator)
53-58...Deinonychus (Velociraptor)
59-64...Dog
65-69...Horse
70-75...Pony
76-81...Shark
82-87...Snake, Constrictor
88-93...Snake, Viper
94-99...Wolf
100.....Dm's Choice
edit: Slight tweak to the numbers to even out the odds a little.
Since the OP indicated that they were on the Plane of Fire, I *might* even be tempted to apply the Elemental-Infused Creature (fire) template from Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary.
That would be an epic moment, especially if it had been ruled on the fly. Companion dies heroically in service to his druid master only to be reborn from the fires a stronger creature.
My players would have had to pick themselves up off the floor. :D
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I like the idea of creating a table based on the available animal companions to where the party is. Since the OP indicated that they were on the Plane of Fire, I *might* even be tempted to apply the Elemental-Infused Creature (fire) template from Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary. That is, provided that the druid in question could find a suitable place to do their ceremony/meditation/et cetera. And since they are on Plane of Fire, I think I would *NOT* include dolphins.
Of course, I would not do this without talking to the player in question first.
I wholeheartedliy endorse this approach, as well as applying different reincarnation tables to different types of beings as a standard.
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My GM is saying that when an animal companion is reincarnated, it is no longer an animal companion. He points to an article written by the 3.5 "The Sage:"
Hmm...Found this on the wizards 3.5 archive:
Bringing back the animal from the dead reestablishes the link between the two of you, and you need not locate or bind a new companion; however, the reincarnate spell is an exception. The spell brings back the animal as an independent being and the resulting creature is no longer an animal companion.
We use Pathfinder, not 3.5, but since Pathfinder is derived from 3.5, it's not a bad source for clarification. I'm hoping these forums help to clarify it.
It makes no sense to me for a Druid to have only the Reincarnate spell and not be able to use that on her companion.
Since we are on the Plane of Fire, where there are no animals, this is vital for our campaign, as the animal companion in question was one of the big damage dealers in our party (lion).
Your GM's ruling isn't based on whether the reincarnated creature will be an animal. It's using Skip's RotG article as the basis for the rules decision.
In reincarnating your animal companion, it will come back as some form of animal. Not necessarily a lion. Maybe a mouse. Maybe a shark. The point is that your motivation for bringing back the companion is based on the utility of his original form, which is unlikely to be repeated. Regardless, you likely will get a form you can bond with, even if not Lion of Awesome Damage Dealing.
The spell itself has a spell component that is unlikely to just be carried around; YMMV. But, if that is a non issue, let's look at your GM's ruling.
Your GM is accepting Skip's ruling in a Rules of the Game Article. The rules haven't changed much between the editions as relates to the question at hand (text below in spoilers). Here's the thing about Skip's rulings. Skip sometimes answered based upon the text of the rules. Sometimes he expanded the rules into areas that weren't covered by the rules but were logical extensions. Sometimes, he plain out introduced a new concept into the game, effectively his own house rule, without identifying it as such. I have a lot of respect for Skip's work in the RotG articles, but this latter tendency....not so much. House rules are fine, and there are many areas where the rules don't cover. But, when speaking with the voice of authority, the distinction should be made.
This ruling is one of these Skip house rules. If your GM agrees with the logic, that's up to him. But, if he is using the ruling based upon the authority of Skip as Sage, he needs to recognize that doing so is a mixed bag.
Summary: the spell probably doesn't solve your problem of wanting Simba the Lion back. You may not have the components in the first place. If all of that is a go-ahead anyway, your GM might consider looking at the spells instead of accepting someone else's house rule on the basis of that person's voice of authority in other matters.
Transmutation
Level: Drd 4
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Touch
Target: Dead creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
With this spell, you bring back a dead creature in another body, provided that its death occurred no more than one week before the casting of the spell and the subject’s soul is free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw.
Since the dead creature is returning in a new body, all physical ills and afflictions are repaired. The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature’s body still exists, it can be reincarnated, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature’s body at the time of death. The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand. This process takes 1 hour to complete. When the body is ready, the subject is reincarnated.
A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form. It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores. The subject’s level (or Hit Dice) is reduced by 1. If the subject was 1st level, its new Constitution score is reduced by 2. (If this reduction would put its Con at 0 or lower, it can’t be reincarnated). This level/HD loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any means.
It’s possible for the change in the subject’s ability scores to make it difficult for it to pursue its previous character class. If this is the case, the subject is well advised to become a multiclass character.
For a humanoid creature, the new incarnation is determined using the following table. For nonhumanoid creatures, a similar table of creatures of the same type should be created.
A creature that has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be returned to life by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be reincarnated. The spell cannot bring back a creature who has died of old age.
The reincarnated creature gains all abilities associated with its new form, including forms of movement and speeds, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary abilities, and the like, but it doesn’t automatically speak the language of the new form.
A wish or a miracle spell can restore a reincarnated character to his or her original form.
Material Component
Rare oils and unguents worth a total of least 1,000 gp, spread over the remains.
School transmutation; Level druid 4
Casting Time 10 minutes
Components V, S, M, DF (oils worth 1,000 gp)
Range touch
Target dead creature touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none, see text; Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
With this spell, you bring back a dead creature in another body, provided that its death occurred no more than 1 week before the casting of the spell and the subject's soul is free and willing to return. If the subject's soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw.
Since the dead creature is returning in a new body, all physical ills and afflictions are repaired. The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature's body still exists, it can be reincarnated, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature's body at the time of death. The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand. This process takes 1 hour to complete. When the body is ready, the subject is reincarnated.
A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form. It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments (since it is no longer necessarily of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores. The subject of the spell gains two permanent negative levels when it is reincarnated. If the subject is 1st level, it takes 2 points of Constitution drain instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can't be reincarnated). A character who died with spells prepared has a 50% chance of losing any given spell upon being reincarnated. A spellcasting creature that doesn't prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) has a 50% chance of losing any given unused spell slot as if it had been used to cast a spell.
It's possible for the change in the subject's ability scores to make it difficult for it to pursue its previous character class. If this is the case, the subject is advised to become a multiclass character.
For a humanoid creature, the new incarnation is determined using the table below. For non-humanoid creatures, a similar table of creatures of the same type should be created.
A creature that has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can't be returned to life by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can't be reincarnated. The spell can bring back a creature that has died of old age.
The reincarnated creature gains all abilities associated with its new form, including forms of movement and speeds, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary abilities, and the like, but it doesn't automatically speak the language of the new form.
A wish or a miracle spell can restore a reincarnated character to his or her original form.
The druid has eschew materials. Could she use, say, diamond and gem dust for the same amount to substitute for the oils?
Also, *I* want it to be a nice damage dealer. The druid just wants her specific companion back, in any form that she can bond with.
I would say no. But if your GM is not *too* much of a jerk, they might make the oils available as loot at some point in the next session or two.
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The druid has eschew materials. Could she use, say, diamond and gem dust for the same amount to substitute for the oils?
Eschew materials only applies to components of value less than 1gp, so is immaterial with regard to this. There is not an option for substituting one component for another as a regular matter of course. How your game deals with material components over all is another story; my experience is that this depends on the degree of abstractness or concreteness people want in their game. I could see extending ideas like meta-magic components to have the spell perform in a particular way, including a particular form of reincarnation.
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We are 11-12th level and the how and why we are there is in the Legacy of Fire AP. Suffice it to say that we want out! We're barely surviving and have had to retreat several times (three so far in two-three sessions). We also have teleport and dimension door that allows us to retreat to a sorta safe place.
And to Lord Pel:
;)
And to Lord Pel:
;)
*Whistles innocently*
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And it is ... a cheetah. :) Not as powerful as a lion, but still a feline.
My wizard cast Locate Object to find any expensive oils, since the Pathfinder spell only specifies oils, not special unguents. It took two dimension doors and a dread wraith, but we got the oils.
The fire-template wasn't a good choice for an animal companion neg strength, neg con, plus intelligence and charisma...not so great. so while that was actually rolled, the player decided against it.
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My default response to rules questions like this is:
Which ruling makes the game more fun for everyone involved?
Does ruling that reincarnating your AC breaks that bond make it more fun for the druid's player? For any player? For the GM? In other words, what benefit is there, to anyone, in ruling it this way?
Fun should be the name of the game.
In a previous game, the party druid was the main source of bringing people back from the dead. No one really wanted to come back as a stoat. There was also lots of metaphysics with the Great Wheel of Transmigration, karma, and the Chinese Judges of the Dead.
The druid then figured out she could make the reincarnation less random by casting the target's horoscope beforehand and using a huge number of powdered gemstones to jigger the astrological resonances such that she could basically pick what someone came back as. No one had to come back as a stoat or a bugbear unless they wanted to.
The limiting factor was that this jiggering was slightly more expensive than Resurrection items.
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This is the random table(*) that was used:
01-07 Cat, Big (Tiger)
08-14 Camel
15-21 Monitor Lizard
22-28 Bat, Dire
29-35 Roc
36-42 DM's Choice
43-49 Cat, Big (Lion)
50-56 Hyena
57-65 Roll Again, Apply Fire Template
66-72 Cat, Small (Leopard)
73-79 Cat, Small (Cheetah)
80-86 Ram
87-93 Rat, Dire
94-100 Snake, Viper
The player rolled twice on the table, and I rolled once. The player was then given the choice from among the 3 results. In this way I hoped to keep it fun for the player by giving them some choice in the matter so they were not forced to have an animal companion that they truly did not want. The player rolled a Monitor Lizard and the cheetah with the fire template, while my result was a repeat of the monitor lizard.
The player also had the choice of expending a hero point to change the result of their roll by d6 in a chosen direction (without knowing the table in advance).
(*)The table was created by collecting all the animal companions that came from temperate/hot climates, filtering out ones that did not make sense from an AP theme perspective (ie dinosaurs), and randomizing the positions on the table.
Fun should be the name of the game.
In a previous game, the party druid was the main source of bringing people back from the dead. No one really wanted to come back as a stoat. There was also lots of metaphysics with the Great Wheel of Transmigration, karma, and the Chinese Judges of the Dead.
The druid then figured out she could make the reincarnation less random by casting the target's horoscope beforehand and using a huge number of powdered gemstones to jigger the astrological resonances such that she could basically pick what someone came back as. No one had to come back as a stoat or a bugbear unless they wanted to.
The limiting factor was that this jiggering was slightly more expensive than Resurrection items.
This sounds awesome. I envy people who get to play in creative and unique games like this. I live in a creativity-vacuum. :(