AHHH! I had originally used the leonals info as a space filler when I set up the basic layouts (Leo's were the first monsters I made) but as I created each new monster I miss the vulpinal! Thanks for the catch, I just cut/pasted the correct info into it and will post a new update in a bit.
Here was the Vulpinal with its original text and conversion.
I also have the Kyton, harpy and drider on their way.
Thanks for the catch!
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Hmm.
I'm noticing there are no base racial stats, it seems to just be class levels.
Am I to assume that you force the player to take racial levels?
I can see this as a good way to de-level a monster to run a weaker version, though I'm uncertain of the use for player characters.
Is this still ongoing or is it pretty much dead?
I've done some of these things myself over the years I've been playing 3.x / pathfinder. I wouldn't mind contributing, but I'm not entirely certain of how your design style works. Mine tends to be Race + Class breakdown, balancing each level of the class against player classes to see how the power levels compare - that kind of design is more suited to player characters than Weakened Monsters though.
Still ongoing. Been awhile since I've posted an update, but have been going line by line and cleaning it up and doing recalculations and such.
So, yeah so the racial base stats are worked INTO the first level. So, if you wantedto play a Wizard Pixie - you atleast have to be Pixie racial level 1 then at 2nd level you can take Wizard 1.
Is that what you were asking?
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Still ongoing. Been awhile since I've posted an update, but have been going line by line and cleaning it up and doing recalculations and such.
So, yeah so the racial base stats are worked INTO the first level. So, if you wantedto play a Wizard Pixie - you atleast have to be Pixie racial level 1 then at 2nd level you can take Wizard 1.
Is that what you were asking?
Yeah, that answers my question.. Hmm. I could contribute, but I would definitely separate out the racial mods from level one. I mean, what if I want my first level to be in fighter or something. (That's why I don't use the "Playable Monsters" at gitp - they've done pretty much everything for 3.5 using this method, but I feel like I need to convert them and recalculated everything before I use them.)
Can I ask: Why fold the racials into a class level? Is there a benefit to it?
Are you interested in contributions still if they follow the model I mentioned instead? (Standard Race + Class Levels), or should I move along and just go do my own thing elsewhere? Obviously this method seems to satisfy a fair number of players (judging by how much traffic the 3.5 thread was getting) but I may be the only one who doesnt get it.
Darkholme, I do like the idea of the racial base + class level. I could see going through the monsters and taking my first racial level and breaking it in down into the essence of the race - which in the long run would slow down the monsters progression, which some people who are fearful of a monster PC as too powerful.
If you wanted to contribute: please feel free to break any or all of them down and I can edit the racial base into the builds.
Courrain, the level break down I have posted currently is that after 1st level as the race you want - you can interchange class levels into the character build with racial levels as you like.
exp: An under developed Pixie (Racial Level 1) with only ability to fly at 30', but is more experienced in (Fighter level 3) battle than his fellow pixies.
or just go full on Pixie with (Racial Level 4) and have the full abilities as listed in the Bestiary
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Darkholme, I do like the idea of the racial base + class level. I could see going through the monsters and taking my first racial level and breaking it in down into the essence of the race - which in the long run would slow down the monsters progression, which some people who are fearful of a monster PC as too powerful.
If you wanted to contribute: please feel free to break any or all of them down and I can edit the racial base into the builds.
Courrain, the level break down I have posted currently is that after 1st level as the race you want - you can interchange class levels into the character build with racial levels as you like.
exp: An under developed Pixie (Racial Level 1) with only ability to fly at 30', but is more experienced in (Fighter level 3) battle than his fellow pixies.
or just go full on Pixie with (Racial Level 4) and have the full abilities as listed in the Bestiary
Right. Essentially all monsters have a LA 1 type version, as well as a progression, but they dont have a LA 0 type version.
I'll see about doing up a couple at some point in the near future. Right now I'm converting some inaccessible monsters from 3.5 so I dont have to lug my 3.5 books to game every time I want to break out an illithid. So not so much publishable stuff, but personal use stuff.
@Darkholme
Right now I'm converting some inaccessible monsters from 3.5 so I dont have to lug my 3.5 books to game every time I want to break out an illithid.
Can you post here your Pathfinder conversion for 3.5 Illithid?
I'm particularly interested to see how you handle their mind blast and brain eating attack.|
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I guess I'll have to bump the illithid up in priority then. I started with a few I use more often; namely, I'm done the enforcer of dis, the beholder, and I've started on githyanki. I'll do the illithid after that. (probably wont end up putting it up until early monday morning).
Most of my adjustments have been updating the numbers to match the pathfinder numbers and trying to match it up CR wise, I've been mainly leaving the abilies alone, except adjusting the occasional DC. I'll see if I can make the illithid any better with those two powers. Because I'll admit, I'm not a fan of the mechanic for the brain eating attack. its cludgy and reeks of 2e. lol. I mean some things in 2e were great dont get me wrong (the setting fluff was nice) but the mechanics weren't very consistent.
Edit: I'm curious: What specifically is your problem with mind blast in 3.5? I have some ideas for things that might improve it, but I'm curious.
@Darkholme - even a week from now would be good.
I like Illithid's and need to convert them to Pathfinder for G3 - Hall of the Fire Giant King. I'm pulling together all the Illithid conversions I can find and will use these to construct a best fit for Pathfinder that also closely resembles the original.
I have no problem with Mind Blast at all, and it should be easy to convert. However the brain eating attack is extremely cludgy and hard to pull off. It needs to be totally rewritten for Pathfinder and will be the most significant change to the creature.
Based on your last post I think your conversion will be useful.
Cheers,
Silke
I'm not endorsing below conversions and didn't really want to post them yet in case they influence your work but they do give some idea of the variety of approaches others have taken.
Grab (Ex) A mindflare's grab works against creatures of any size, so long as the mindflare has a method of reaching the creature's head.
Extract (Ex) Each round that the mindflare begins grappling a foe, it can choose to deal 4d4+4 Intelligence damage; this ability replaces the normal grapple option to deal damage.
Dexterity Drain (Su)
The otherworldly teeth and tongue of a denizen of Leng deal 1d6 points of Dexterity drain with a bite. Constructs, elementals, and other creatures that do not possess flesh are immune to this effect. A successful DC 19 Fortitude save reduces the Dexterity drain to 1 point. The save DC is Constitution-based.
Implant (Ex)The tips of a phrenic scourge’s tendrils constantly die and regrow, much like a human’s fingernails. In any round in which the scourge successfully Strikes the same victim with both tendril attacks, the tip of a tendril breaks off in the flesh and begins to burrow, unless the victim succeeds on a DC 17 Fortitude save. The larva burrows through the host, following its nervous system until it reaches the brain. This takes 1d4+1 rounds, causing 2d4 points of damage per round. When the larva reaches the brain, the subject dies instantly. At any point in this process, the larva can be destroyed with remove disease or heal.
This ability does not function against constructs, elementals, oozes, plants, or undead, and is not instantly fatal to foes with multiple heads. Any creature with natural regeneration or fast healing resists the effects of the implanted larva. The larva is not expelled, but neither can it proceed to the brain. It does continue to cause damage every round, however, as it tries to burrow (assuming the damage it causes exceeds the fast healing or regeneration, of course).This continues until the larva is destroyed, as above, or until 2d10+1 rounds have passed, at which point it dies on its own. The save DC is Constitution-based.
@Silke
I found that too...with the limited conversion I did for this "by-the-levels" that the brain eating was not as elegant as I remembered. IF you get a path version completed I'd love to check it out.
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@Silke
I found that too...with the limited conversion I did for this "by-the-levels" that the brain eating was not as elegant as I remembered. IF you get a path version completed I'd love to check it out.
Just a funny thought. I'm pretty sure Illithids can only eat brain matter, or can't survive on regular food, which is part of why they have to eat brains. I'm picturing these gaunt, malnourished, dying, starved illithids until they hit level 8, at which point they can become healthy. lol.
@Darholme
lol yeah, was thinking that as I put at eighth level the brain extract, but thats IN combat...so you have to figure that up til that point they still have to eat brain matter, just after they've killed the victim and bust open the skull. YUMMY!
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Here's what I came across when looking for decent illithid pics (I'm working on the Illithid conversion right now, so far I have a 3.5 illithid reformatted to match the monster layout for pathfinder.
"Supplementing their basic diet, Illithids require a minimum of one fresh, humanoid brain per month (most prefer to eat weekly when possible) to stay alive. As such their tentacles exude an acidic substance that allows them to slip through skin and bone like butter...
However this is due to lacking the brain-glands needed to produce hormones, so it's possible you might be able to find an alternative." lol.
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So here it is.
Apparently I may have to take it down/take out the flavor text. We'll see how it goes.
Apparently its safer to host it off-site, and then if anyone complains the link will just die. So that's what I did.
@Darkholme
Thanks I got it. Nicely presented and much of it useful; you certainly reworked the brain eating. It may be several weeks before I pull all the variants together to write a conversion. Look for it in the G3 download.
@Darkholm
Ah, but the last line is a thing of beauty. *tips hat*
~D
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I absolutely agree. I can't take credit for that though. I just chose the location to put it.
Round 4: Eat Brains.
Silke: What do you think of the Mechanic I came up with? It's more consistent with having your brain eaten by illithid babies (and that was before I read what the mechanic they came up with for that was). It also gives them something dangerous to do when they aren't grappling your head. (Acid Damage). Clearly they dont get through your skull with strength, and since the flavor text said it was acid eating through your skull, I decided to make the mechanics support that.
@Darkholm
I like the reasoning used in your approach to tackle this. A tie-in with brain eating and larvae reproduction has nice synergy. Using acid damage to eat through the skull is plausible. The mechanic isn’t there yet though. Look for ways to streamline it and review methods used in other conversions such as by zerzix above. Also look for ways to have it more closely resemble the original attack. I need ponder an alternative while the subject is ‘hot’ so it can be posted and gain the benefit of group feedback but you will get to it before I do. Our combined input will make for a better conversion.
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-_- Internet ate my post. too long. wont retype it all.
Acid damage is what Lords of Madness explicitly says Illithids use to eat through a victim's skull, so I figured it was the best way to approach it.
In terms of rounds to kill; its almost as lethal as before (opponent is rendered unconscious instead of killed in round 3, and the brains are finished being eaten round 4. So he lives an extra round.
But the Constitution Damage mechanic is a bit cludgy.
How about this?
Acid Tendrils (Ex) At the beginning of an illithid’s turn, if it is grappling an victim using its tentacles, that victim takes 1d6+1 Acid damage for each tentacle attached to him. The Bonus Acid Damage is Constitution Based. If the illithid has its tentacles attached to the victim’s head when the acid damage is dealt, the victim must make a fortitude save against a DC of 10 + 1/2 acid damage dealt this round. Failure means he is rendered unconscious for 2d8 minutes as the acid from the illithid’s tentacles gets through the victim’s skull. Constructs, elementals, oozes, plants, and undead cannot be rendered unconscious in this manner, and for creatures with multiple heads, such as ettins and hydras, each head must be rendered unconscious separately.
It needs to be fairly quick, streamlined, deadly and involve grapple.
Here is a rough outline posted from my phone without books handy.
Mindflayers have a +2 or +4 racial bonus to grapple checks.
They make a grapple check with one or more tentacles. Next round they make a Check to continue the grapple (at +5 to the check if the opponent hasn't escaped or overturned the grapple by then). If successful they extract the brain, killing the victim (unless multiple heads etc.). Thus 2 consecutive rounds of grapple is needed to eat a brain. It's a rough draft but indicates the approach I have in mind.
Any thoughts?
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It needs to be fairly quick, streamlined, deadly and involve grapple.
Here is a rough outline posted from my phone without books handy.Mindflayers have a +2 or +4 racial bonus to grapple checks.
They make a grapple check with one or more tentacles. Next round they make a Check to continue the grapple (at +5 to the check if the opponent hasn't escaped or overturned the grapple by then). If successful they extract the brain, killing the victim (unless multiple heads etc.). Thus 2 consecutive rounds of grapple is needed to eat a brain. It's a rough draft but indicates the approach I have in mind.
Any thoughts?
Yes its quick, but It's more deadly than the original (at least 3 rounds to insta-kill unless the mind flayer succeeds on 4 attack rolls, then 4 grapple checks in round 1) and as a GM I would never use it, because it's too save or die for me.
Grapple or die is definitely worse than save or die. I converted it to damage so that you're still *LIKELY* to die around round 3 or 4, but if you have acid resist, or a high Con save, or a good grapple, you might not. And if you have decently high int wis cha and dex, or he rolls low for one of the 4, your friends may have an extra round to save you while youre helpless. You'll still be mentally handicapped from all the ability drain... but you're alive.
So yes, mine may be a little too bulky still, but what you just proposed is too deadly, and not mechanically justified (granted, the 3.5 one wasnt mechanically justified either).
How are you getting through the skull to get to the brains? Its definitely not the mf's strength. its not acid. youre killing them with grapple? that very much makes me want to ask *how* youre killing them in the grapple. If its still acid like the flavor text on mindflayers says in 3.x, then acid resist should apply. If you're crushing the skull, then make the mechanics match. etc.
just my 2 copper. I'd be more likely to use the 3.5 mechanic than what you proposed, but I don't care for either.
Plus: Didn't PF Scale back on the save or die effects?
And additionally: Why is it that every grapple the MF makes automatically grapples the head? Nobody else still even *has* called shots, let alone without penalty.
Did Pathfinder scale back ‘save or die’ effects? Absolutely...and not really. Now it’s save or gain a debilitating condition (stunned for example) and then die.
True there is no ‘called shots’ as such.
Indeed my last post is a ‘save or die’ approach. I am however consulting further back than just 3.5e. For example 1e Mind Flayers eat brains anywhere from 1d4 rounds.
Speaking from experience the original 3.5e mechanic is too complicated and takes too long to pull off (even against stunned opponents) when you’re up against a party of adventurers. Do a test fight with your approach and you should find that is extremely hard for an adventurer to die from brain extraction. Not to mention the mind flayer will be dead long before this as it’s rapidly killed by the party.
The next step is to equalise our two approaches.
I was thinking you could allow a fortitude save but looking into it that may not be best.
I agree acid is used to dissolve the skin, skull and metal helms thus acid resistance could come into play. The problem then is calculating acid damage. How much acid resistance is needed for immunity? I would like to delve further into making acid damage part of the attack form. It could be that tentacle damage is physical damage plus say 1d6 acid damage/tentacle?
I suspect a better option is to have brain eating acid damage be represented as an ability drain on intelligence. Intelligence 0 = dead. This has nice synergy with Mind Flayers preference for intelligent beings as they are more filling and satisfying (i.e. more intelligence to eat).
The mindflare attack below is an example along these lines...
Grab (Ex) A mindflare's grab works against creatures of any size, so long as the mindflare has a method of reaching the creature's head.
Extract (Ex) Each round that the mindflare begins grappling a foe, it can choose to deal 4d4+4 Intelligence damage; this ability replaces the normal grapple option to deal damage.
Maybe reduce Intelligence drain to 2d4 points per round, or something like that.
If an ability drain approach is used then the below requirement for "all four tentacles to be attached" is removed. It should be removed in any event - otherwise if a Mind flayer loses one tentacle...what it starves to death?. :P
A mind flayer that begins its turn with all four tentacles attached and that makes a successful grapple check automatically extracts the opponent’s brain, instantly killing that creature.
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Speaking from experience the original 3.5e mechanic is too complicated and takes too long to pull off (even against stunned opponents) when you’re up against a party of adventurers. Do a test fight with your approach and you should find that is extremely hard for an adventurer to die from brain extraction. Not to mention the mind flayer will be dead long before this as it’s rapidly killed by the party.
My experience has been rather different. First turn: attack, on hit: grapple check for each hit. Second Turn: Grapple Check: If the grapple check before this succeeded, victim dies. otherwise, all tentacles are attached.
I've lost 2 characters that way in 3.x. Sure they killed the mindflayer, but not before it killed me.In your scenario, why is the mindflayer not mindblasting while he noms on your head?
I agree acid is used to dissolve the skin, skull and metal helms thus acid resistance could come into play. The problem then is calculating acid damage. How much acid resistance is needed for immunity? I would like to delve further into making acid damage part of the attack form. It could be that tentacle damage is physical damage plus say 1d6 acid damage/tentacle?
From what the fluff said, the acid is very strong but immediately dissolves into nothing upon contact with air. That's why I had the creature only deal acid damage when grappling. It's worth noting that he's not making a grapple check to deal acid damage, he does the acid damage *before* the grapple check, automatically.
I suspect a better option is to have brain eating acid damage be represented as an ability drain on intelligence. Intelligence 0 = dead. This has nice synergy with Mind Flayers preference for intelligent beings as they are more filling and satisfying (i.e. more intelligence to eat).
The brain eating itself isn't acid damage, but getting to the brain to remove and eat it would be. I'm not sure how that's substantially different than my suggestion of 2d6 int, wis, cha, dex drain. They aren't just eating intelligence though. They're replacing enzymes and hormones and whatnot that they can't produce, along with psychic energy. Its said that they can eat other organs but get less nutrients from them. But I agree that ability drain is the best way to approach the brain eating. I think where we disagree is that I think they need to get through the skull before they can scoop out the brains and eat them. If you want the illithid to be able to kill you in a round once he gets to your brain, make it 3d6 (players may demand you roll for each attribute drain separately, but so be it).
If an ability drain approach is used then the below requirement for "all four tentacles to be attached" is removed. It should be removed in any event - otherwise if a Mind flayer loses one tentacle...what it starves to death?. :P
Yeah, I dropped the 4 tentacle thing as soon as I added the acid damage.
I'm not entirely certain what the best approach is, mine could maybe be more streamlines, but the save or die effect, and handwaiving how the illithid gets through the skull and whatnot are not approaches I'm fond of.
Now, I like your idea of int-drain for a mindflayer-like monster that is different, where it isn't going through the skull and eating your brains, but psychically consuming your mind. But in my opinion, tentacles aren't needed for that, and you should be able to do it at short range, no grapple check necessary, just a will save.
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Hey zerzix, great work. I have played a few of these so far and like it.
But need a clarification on something. I was breaking down the white dragon mirroring the way you broke down the other dragons and noticed that you had the size progression different then what is in the bestiary. For instance, the Black dragon at age young adult age is large in the bestiary, but you have it still medium. And at old age it is huge in the bestiary, but is not huge till ancient age in your breakdown. The Red, Gold, and Silver are different then the bestiary sizes. The blue dragon has the right size changes. I just was wondering if you changed them for a reason or they are they just need to be corrected? If it is the latter, I think I can edit and set them right and send them back to you. I have a basic PDF editor, so you might have to clean it up to add the changes.
Also once I get the white put in digital form I can send it to you to add.
Later. and thanks for your time to do this great undertaking.
Thanks for the catch, yeah I had miss read the size chart. Help is always welcomed!
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I don't really know how to do PDFs especially ones already made but here is an attempt to make the white dragon.
White Dragon
zerzix I hope you can use this to add it to your file.
I used a program to convert the other pdf to a word file then edited it as best i could and used another converter to go from word to pdf.
I have mostly edited the other dragons, but my current method of doing it makes a huge file. So can't upload it yet.
later
Wow, thanks! they are perfect!
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Here's the last of the bestiary 1 dragons
So far out of all the dragons, I think i like the copper the best. It can almost be a rogue and at 12 lvl could qualify for the arcane Trickster PRC.
I also noticed that all the dragons don't have change shape any more. Our group feels they should so I was going to propose that for a house rule any dragon could have change shape as long as it has a charisma of 19. If it's not listed as one of it's powers.
Later
OMG, I have been outta the loop on buisness for a month now, WOw! These are great! I'd LOVE them via email in word if possible? zerzix@gmail.com
Yeah, in regard to shape change the only dragons that have it - per say - is the gold and silver. I kinda like the idea that its a selective feature unless the dragon is specialized as a spell caster and can't just easily fit into any campaign.
The idea that they have to have a high enough Cha is nice though!
How about a compilation document? :D
Yeah, of course I was going to compile them all into one pdf. =P
I did some work a while back that focussed on the Pathfinder "no level adjustments" theme, and worked the monster abilities as feats rather than having 'monster levels' as well as class levels.
If anyone is interested the document is here.
OMG, I have been outta the loop on buisness for a month now, WOw! These are great! I'd LOVE them via email in word if possible? zerzix@gmail.com
Yeah, in regard to shape change the only dragons that have it - per say - is the gold and silver. I kinda like the idea that its a selective feature unless the dragon is specialized as a spell caster and can't just easily fit into any campaign.
The idea that they have to have a high enough Cha is nice though!
There was a feat in the DragonLance book Dragons of Krynn that gave a dragon other than a gold or silver the Change Shape ability.
Hey Joesk, thanks for the hard work..any chance you emailing those to me at zerzix@gmail.com
Courrain, I love the idea...now to put it into game terms. Hmm - I could add in a splash page after the the lycanthrope intro and describe the various race traits?
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That could work. Perhaps the base creature has an alternate racial trait that reflects their lycanthropy and replaces one of their standard racial traits?Hey Joesk, thanks for the hard work..any chance you emailing those to me at zerzix@gmail.com
Courrain, I love the idea...now to put it into game terms. Hmm - I could add in a splash page after the the lycanthrope intro and describe the various race traits?
Sorry it took me a little longer then I wanted to put them into word files. I just sent them to you. Hope you like em. When I finish with all the MMII dragons and Dracomonicon ones I will send them to you also.
OMG they are terrific, I replied to your email. I just about finished updating them into the full pdf. Just mainly looking for good pics of Gem dragon. lol I'll post the major update in a couple hours or so.
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OMG they are terrific, I replied to your email. I just about finished updating them into the full pdf. Just mainly looking for good pics of Gem dragon. lol I'll post the major update in a couple hours or so.
Well I was going to suggest the ones in MM 2 but they are not very good. I'll look on some of the art web sites and see if there is any free rights drawings that can be used.
Well found one on a tattoo site.