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The ability says it works like overrun, but then says that no CMB vs CMD check is necessary if I read it right. Does that mean that the trample ability automatically knocks enemies prone if they are trampled?
That's my current take on it, but I thought I would check and see if others knew of an official answer on the subject. I searched the rules forum on "trample" and saw several threads but none that I looked seemingly had the answer. Thanks!
Anyone being Trampled gets to choose to either use a reflex save to try avioding the damage [or at least part of it] OR have an AoO and take all the damage.
No mention of Prone in either option to my knowledge.
Universal Monster Rules
The following rules are standard and are referenced (but not repeated) in monster stat blocks. Each rule includes a format guide for how it appears in a monster's listing and its location in the stat block.
Trample (Ex) As a full-round action, a creature with the trample ability can attempt to overrun any creature that is at least one size category smaller than itself. This works just like the overrun combat maneuver, but the trampling creature does not need to make a check, it merely has to move over opponents in its path. Targets of a trample take an amount of damage equal to the trampling creature's slam damage + 1-1/2 times its Str modifier. Targets of a trample can make an attack of opportunity, but at a –4 penalty. If targets forgo an attack of opportunity, they can attempt to avoid the trampling creature and receive a Reflex save to take half damage. The save DC against a creature's trample attack is 10 + 1/2 creature's HD + creature's Str modifier (the exact DC is given in the creature's descriptive text). A trampling creature can only deal trampling damage to each target once per round, no matter how many times its movement takes it over a target creature.
Format: trample (2d6+9, DC 20); Location: Special Attacks.
Bolded emphasis mine, referencing that it works like overrun. Overrun allows for enemies being knocked prone if the CMB is 5 or more beyond the CMD required to overrun the enemy.
With trample not requiring a CMB roll, my assumption is the knocking prone is automatic but I would love to have a clarification as this may come up very soon in my game. Thanks!
My assumption would be that since no CMB roll is made, then the trampler never has a chance to win by 5 or more. Nor does it say that you win by 5 or more. It simply says you wins and do damage (as per the result for winning), but the trampler doesn't get even get a chance to access additional affects that depend on the roll.Bolded emphasis mine, referencing that it works like overrun. Overrun allows for enemies being knocked prone if the CMB is 5 or more beyond the CMD required to overrun the enemy.
With trample not requiring a CMB roll, my assumption is the knocking prone is automatic but I would love to have a clarification as this may come up very soon in my game. Thanks!
yo reefwood, i guess you're right, strictly RAW-wise, but i think that the rules for trample a very badly written and the reference to overrun does more harm than good. how far can the trampler move anyway? 5ft (rofl), its speed, twice - and if so, does the charge part come in anywhere?
from watching countless documentaries i'd say that first of all a stampede of cattle pretty much looks as if they were running and furthermore i just can't get myself to picture a person of medium size NOT to be prone after literally being trampled INTO the ground in such a case.
of course, you're not talking about a stampede here, which in terms of rules doesn't do anything except increasing the REF DC for half damage anyway. but my gut feeling suggests that there should be a fair chance for the recipient of a trample attack to go prone due to the attack.
after all, that could happen to the target of a regular overrun, even though the attacker could be smaller than the target and the target doesn't even eat hoof.
this one's ripe for errata, i'd say. an easy fix could be to have the recipient of a trample go prone when taking full damage from the trample (either because you took your AoO and didn't drop the trampler or you blew your REF save).
this one's ripe for errata, i'd say. an easy fix could be to have the recipient of a trample go prone when taking full damage from the trample (either because you took your AoO and didn't drop the trampler or you blew your REF save).
I was thinking on this a bit more last night and had come to a similar conclusion myself. It's just a house rule for now, though, until I can find a clarification of how it is supposed to work for real. Thanks!
I hate the "it works like...." line.
I've never enforced the prone aspect in my games but I can see how others would by RAW.
posting so this gets dotted. I will read it later.
The scenario I expected this to come up in happened over the weekend and I used the Reflex save for half damage to offer an avoidance of being knocked prone. As it turned out, all three people who were trampled failed their save and took full damage and were knocked prone.
I was satisfied with the way it worked in game, and will continue to run it that way as a houserule until I see something official to the contrary. Thanks!
The scenario I expected this to come up in happened over the weekend and I used the Reflex save for half damage to offer an avoidance of being knocked prone. As it turned out, all three people who were trampled failed their save and took full damage and were knocked prone.
I was satisfied with the way it worked in game, and will continue to run it that way as a houserule until I see something official to the contrary. Thanks!
You're welcome. Glad to hear it worked out for you. But I doubt your players were all too satisfied ;]
By the way, how did you handle the movement issue?
The last post above does make sense except that it is impossible for a larger creature to cause injury to a smaller creature if the smaller creature is not somehow between the foot of the trampling creature and the ground. Any other way of imparting damage would be a slam attack. If a person is standing, only ones foot can be stepped on and then one wouldn't use the word "trample".
My suggestion as a house rule until something more official comes along is to rule that if the person opts for the reflex, making the save by 5 or more means he avoids all damage and is not knocked prone. So saving by 5 or less gives you half damage, but you still got stepped on, just not in such vital places and so you still are prone. Taking the AOO means you got knocked prone, although whether the -4 is due to being knocked over is moot.
A GM of ours (who admittedly is new to Pathfinder, but not to GMing in general) had us face two of these. They have trample and Improved Overrun:
Improved Overrun (Combat)
You are skilled at running down your foes.Prerequisite: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing an overrun combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to overrun a foe. You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to overrun you. Targets of your overrun attempt may not chose to avoid you.
We figured that there was no way intended to work this way, but he put two and two together and made it so we did not get AoOs and could not avoid the damage.
I think we were knocked prone, too. It was a far more difficult encounter than he intended and almost ended in a tpk.
I would have read that as 'will take full damage, but still get a Reflex save to avoid being knocked prone', though I admit the RAW could be interpreted as your judge did. I just think it's a bit harsh.