I plan to play a one shot campaign with a few friends soon, and to break the monotony, I'm rolling up a martial character, (A Phalanx fighter to be precise), I was looking at the plethora of feats looking for feats that would fit the concept of this character, so I stumbled upon the old whirlwind attack, then I looked at all the requirements for it, and here I was thinking to myself, why a so-so feat has so many requirements? it requires 4 feats (not including itself) 13 int, and 13 dex, and all for this? do you think it is worth it? Am I missing something that makes this feat worth taking 5 total feats?
It does have a bit of synergy with the phalanx fighter, since he can attack with a reach weapon, (and add lunge at level 6 for more range), but the cost is too much when I can take Power attack, Cleave and Greater Cleave for 2 less feats (granted Greater Cleave takes 2 armor class away and can only hit adjacent targets, and Whirlwind attack can hit 360 degrees).
So in short, I want your opinion.
It WAS worth it in 3.5 if you had PHB 2- Bounding Assault had the same preqs (basically allowed pounce) so you might as well have grabbed it anyway.
I don't think it's worth it on it's own merits.
One thing I liked about 3.5 was TOB. despite it being a pre 4th edition test it did give some damn good stuff, comparable to spells for martial characters.
Mithral tornado was a better version of Whirlwind attack and Adamantine Hurracane was awesome.
I hope Ultimate Combat brings out some fighter only feats on this power level. Simple fighter level requirements would make better preqs. Needing 4 feats just to take Whirlwind sucks. If it just had a level requirement it would be nice.
IMHO the feat is useful with lunge + guisarme (you would take combat expertise for improved trip anyway).
Otherwise, not so much.
Never understood why a full round attack has a spring attack (so mobile tactic) as a prerequisite (you can play around that contolling without being engaged, but is situational).
Another idea could be use the "assault2 line, mainly dazing or stunning. force and AOE stun save is neat. The problem is the full round action (mobility fighter 20 makes it awesome, but is very high level).
I'm trying to work out a combination of feats and class talents that would allow you to leap into the middle of 24 enemies and sneak attack them all with a spiked chain and whirlwind attack.
Anyone got any ideas? (The two problems are a) getting 24 enemies to stand in the right place and b) getting the 'move' before a full round action).
I agree, though, that WW attack is 'overpriced' for what it does. House rule it?
I'm trying to work out a combination of feats and class talents that would allow you to leap into the middle of 24 enemies and sneak attack them all with a spiked chain and whirlwind attack.Anyone got any ideas? (The two problems are a) getting 24 enemies to stand in the right place and b) getting the 'move' before a full round action).
I agree, though, that WW attack is 'overpriced' for what it does. House rule it?
Isn't spiked chain 5feet now instead of 15?
I plan to play a one shot campaign with a few friends soon, and to break the monotony, I'm rolling up a martial character, (A Phalanx fighter to be precise), I was looking at the plethora of feats looking for feats that would fit the concept of this character, so I stumbled upon the old whirlwind attack, then I looked at all the requirements for it, and here I was thinking to myself, why a so-so feat has so many requirements? it requires 4 feats (not including itself) 13 int, and 13 dex, and all for this? do you think it is worth it? Am I missing something that makes this feat worth taking 5 total feats?
It does have a bit of synergy with the phalanx fighter, since he can attack with a reach weapon, (and add lunge at level 6 for more range), but the cost is too much when I can take Power attack, Cleave and Greater Cleave for 2 less feats (granted Greater Cleave takes 2 armor class away and can only hit adjacent targets, and Whirlwind attack can hit 360 degrees).
So in short, I want your opinion.
Great Cleave takes one less feat, only requires a standard action and to all intents and purposes does the same thing as whirlwind attack. Whirlwind attack itself is good if you have something like a vorpal blade against tough foes, and it does work out slightly better than Great Cleave if you are facing multiple things that take a couple of hits to down - a few Whirlwind attacks can take them all out rather than demolishing them one at a time.
However, on the balance of things the Cleave path is better for multiple attacks on multiple foes. If you are going to take Power Attack anyway, it's a no-brainer.
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Anything which has not one but two "garbage" feats (Dodge and Mobility when you're not a AC 40 halfling rogue who is always deliberately daring AoOs) isn't worth it. Great Cleave is cheaper (two prereqs rather than three) and its prereqs are very useful (especially for two-handed use, and especially with polearms).
And....
The main problem with Whirlwind Attack is that very few GMs like running hordes of enemies. So, by the time you get the feat, you're usually just fighting a few big nasties at once, and the feat is crummy for that.
^^^ This.
Yar!
The real answer to any and every "is it worth it" question is this:
It's situational.
There are situations where [insert ability here] is great.
There are situations where [insert ability here] is useless.
There are situations where [insert ability here] is better than [some other ability], and vice versa.
As for Whirlwind specifically, people have already mentioned that Cleave/Great Cleave often finds more use, as it's only a standard action and takes less feats to gain, but it is really not a replacement for whirlwind.
Why?
Cleave/Great Cleave MUST be made against adjacent targets.
Whirlwind is against any/every creature you can reach.
If you are flanked on all 4 sides, but not completely surrounded, cleave/great cleave is useless, but whirlwind can hit them all.
If you add Lunge into the mix, your options for hitting multiple targets that are not adjacent to each other increases tremendously.
Please note: I'm NOT saying that this is the only example of how whirlwind can be better than Greater Cleave. There are many individual situations that make one feat choice better than another, both for whirlwind and against whirlwind, for G.Cleave and against G.Cleave. However, this is one that many people either don't consider, or do but don't say that they do. (personally, I find I’m in situations where I face multiple opponents who are not adjacent more often that not, mostly because the opponents I face often try to flank as well, so they spread out, making cleave less useful and whirlwind more useful).
In the end, it's about options. Great Cleave opens some options doors, and whirlwind opens some option doors. Some of these doors opened are the same, but some are different.
~P
Creative Director
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While I actually think that, in some cases, Whirlwind Attack is a pretty handy feat to have (especially when you're surrounded by lots of mooks—not every fight in the game has you facing off against one foe at a time, after all), it's probably a much more useful feat for monsters and NPCs to take—especially if that monster or NPC has a single deadly natural attack. Like, say, a hezrou that makes a bunch of bite attacks!
Personally, find Whirlwind Feat to be rather useless as written, but it does have encounters where it can g@%+&~n shine like nothing else, the Fighter wading right into the middle of the scrum then 'bang' Whirlwind with a Keen Holy Falchion, enemies get pounded, and thanks to his high AC, he's still relatively safe. Next round, 'bang', again, and that g&&~&@n Falchion crits again and a good many of those mobs are now hurting pretty badly, and some want to leave, but are being pressed back in by their allies.
I've seen a house-rule where Whirlwind could be used in a charge or over-run attack, allowing the user to make attacks at every enemy within range as they moved, to the limit of their BAB, which made it quite powerful, possibly game-breakingly so.
Whirlwind attack is really cool and works really well in Pathfinder thanks to feats like lunge. It's situational, but when you find yourself in the right situation, surrounded by a whole horde of enemies... oh boy.
Which makes me pretty bummed that I'll probably never take it. The prerequisites are just way too steep and they don't even have synergy. Combat expertise reduces your attack, which is something you don't want when making an attack against a lot of enemies. Spring attack requires that you move, which is something you can't do when you need a full-round action to perform the whirlwind attack. Dodge and mobility don't help it at all, either.
I wish there'd be some sort of errata to remove the massive (and redundant) feat tax so we could see this as a viable option.
Whirlwind attack is really cool and works really well in Pathfinder thanks to feats like lunge. It's situational, but when you find yourself in the right situation, surrounded by a whole horde of enemies... oh boy.
Which makes me pretty bummed that I'll probably never take it. The prerequisites are just way too steep and they don't even have synergy. Combat expertise reduces your attack, which is something you don't want when making an attack against a lot of enemies. Spring attack requires that you move, which is something you can't do when you need a full-round action to perform the whirlwind attack. Dodge and mobility don't help it at all, either.
I wish there'd be some sort of errata to remove the massive (and redundant) feat tax so we could see this as a viable option.
Yes that's my sentiment right there, the feat is ok, not bad, not overpowered either, but like you said the prereq, makes no sense and don't sync well, would it be a no brainer for any martial class if it had less feats and/or the pre-req feats had a bit more synergy with the feat?
Which makes me pretty bummed that I'll probably never take it. The prerequisites are just way too steep and they don't even have synergy. Combat expertise reduces your attack, which is something you don't want when making an attack against a lot of enemies. Spring attack requires that you move, which is something you can't do when you need a full-round action to perform the whirlwind attack. Dodge and mobility don't help it at all, either.
Are in fact the huge amount of odd prerequisites the real problem. A standard action whirlwind would be awesome, but not mandatory in the current game mechanics with full attacks and stuff.
But 4 feats not necessarily (at least the spring attack line) according to the tactics or flavour of the feat are too much. I create a lot of encounters featuring a large amount of mooks, but my players still avoid to take it.
Which is a shame because is a pretty awesome view on the battlefield and quite good with the aforementioned tactics.
I have a fighter in my game using a variant that lets him take a move action and attack every enemy he passes, using one die roll for all attacks.
He has never successfully used it due to low rolls causing him to miss almost every target.
This mobile version, barring the unluck of your player, is stll pretty awesome - a sort of improved mobility fighter full attack.
ironically, spring attack would make more sense as a prerequisite for this version than of the original one :D
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It's terrible, and it's pretty much always been terrible. Much like Cleave, Whirlwind Attack is best at low levels when there's weak opponents that will actually be afraid of it. It should just be removed completely, or modified so it combos into Mighty Cleave Great Cleave, or whatever it's called now.
If the rest of your party wants to help you maximize this feat exclusive, then it's worth it. They can lure them in, cast Enlarge Person, use a reach weapon, etc.
yar!
If you are flanked on all 4 sides, but not completely surrounded, cleave/great cleave is useless, but whirlwind can hit them all.Bwa...? If four enemies are flanking a medium creature, they are all adjacent to two of the other three, great cleave is PERFECT for this.
Sorry, I meant to say flanking corner to corner.
[x][o][x]
[o][c][o]
[x][o][x]
x=foe
o=empty
c=character
(that's what I get for posting when in a rush)
~P
Pirate kicks my enemies ass with whirlwind all the time. Especially when utilized with lunge, his character becomes an elven blender.
One of the big problems with whirlwind is that yo basically have to get yourself surrounded by enemies to use it.
If you are getting yourself surrounded by enemies, you've already messed up.
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Rd, it depends upon what your AC is.
-- One of the funniest RP-moments in an APL4 Living Greyhawk mod I ever saw was an "All AC/nothin' but AC" rogue who, since he was saving his cash up for something big, fought exclusively with a soup-ladle (and wore a soup-pot on his head as a helmet).
PCs (a bunch of 2nd- and 3rd-level squirts foolishly "playing up" in LG) are cornered in a dead-end alley by four thugs with spiked chains (which, in 3.5, had reach). We had no spells to blind or befuddle them, and they probably had Power Attack (which they'd use on anyone prone from being tripped). And they weren't interested in talking -- they were gonna kill us.
....we were all creaming our drawers envisioning a TPK; but then the little runt rogue walks right up to the first bad guy, laughs off an AoO, then keeps walking right down the line (laughing off an AoO from each), then circles around and readies to Sneak Attack on a flank when the PCs charge--which they then do.
He had an AC of 26 with Mobility and Prot-evil at 2nd level; and the DM was furiously trying to roll 20s to try and hit him on the AoOs. Effin hilarious. Rogue totally pOwned it.
One of the big problems with whirlwind is that yo basically have to get yourself surrounded by enemies to use it.
If you are getting yourself surrounded by enemies, you've already messed up.
If you have a reach weapon, or lunge, and are facing an oncoming horde, it can still be very useful even if you aren't surrounded. As it's best against lower-level mooks, and as their chances are best if they flank you, very often the enemy will put themselves right where you want them.
If it were a standard action, you could use mobility to jump in the middle of some mooks and go all blender. What a glorious move!
Proscribing most other feats while using it makes it too situational.
It's amusing if you have the right set-up. Personally, I would have made it a standard action, as barring the lunge+enlarge person combo, you are stuck hitting just the ones adjacent to you, which rarely comes down to very many opponents.
Absolutely worthless for anyone except 2h fighters with huge bonuses to damage though. And then only if you are running with a point-buy that allows you to have high INT, which is kind of a dump stat for front-line fighters.
I made a rogue/fighter with lunge, and gave him a shocking/frost sword. When he is able to find a good position and hit off with sneak attack against flat-footed foes (combo with the Court Bard) as well, he does some decent damage. But compared to a real hard-hitter, he is kinda meh.
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+1 to the sentiment that Whirlwind does best against hordes of low-CR guys, who you are less likely to be fighting by the time that you attain the feat (especially if you're not a fighter).
That said: as a GM, I enjoy throwing hordes of low CR mooks at the party. The players get to feel like Gods of War, and with enough mooks you eventually hit a critical mass where they moderately threaten even high-level characters.
I just cobbled together an 8th level Fighter with the WW tree and Lunge. If I were actually playing this PC, I think I'd be looking for ways to capitalize on Combat Expertise.
The BEST thing about WW attack compared to cleave/great cleave is the fact that no matter what, you get an attack at every mook you threaten. With Cleave if you miss one your done, your turn is over. For one extra feat that increases your survivability I believe it is hands down more powerful than Great cleave.
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I just cobbled together an 8th level Fighter with the WW tree and Lunge. If I were actually playing this PC, I think I'd be looking for ways to capitalize on Combat Expertise.
Threatening Defender trait -- with CE, it's a free +1 AC.
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(Half-orc, human or half-elf w/STR bump)
STR+16
DEX:14
CON:14
INT:14
WIS:12
CHA:08
Level..: Ba Ft Rf Wi HP AC
00 base: -- 02 02 01 00 Traits: Threatening Defender,
01 barb1 01 04 02 01 14 move+10, Rage 6r/d, Combat Expertise
02 cler1 01 06 02 03 21 1st, Domains: Strength, Travel (spells: Enlarge, Longstrider)
03 figh1 02 08 02 03 29 Dodge, Mobility
04 figh2 03 09 02 03 37 STR>17, Spring Attack
05 figh3 04 09 03 04 45 Whirlwind Attack
06 figh4 05 10 03 04 53 Power Attack
07 figh5 06 10 03 04 61 Vital Strike
08 figh6 07 11 04 05 69 STR>18, Lunge
That said: as a GM, I enjoy throwing hordes of low CR mooks at the party. The players get to feel like Gods of War, and with enough mooks you eventually hit a critical mass where they moderately threaten even high-level characters.
I think this kind of fight is underrated and underutilized -- it always struck me as unrealistic that, as characters advance in level, they stop encountering the low-level creatures that logically ought still to be as common as they ever were, relative to the higher-CR creatures that a higher-level party recognizes as serious threats. It strikes me as excessively gamist, and also unimaginative, as large numbers of weak creatures can still represent a significant threat if they use intelligent tactics. Grappling and piling on is pretty good; some of them can bypass the party's melee combatants while others engage them, in order to get at the lightly armored ranged-combat types and squishy spell-casters; and boosting each other's attacks with flanking and Aid Another actions can overcome high ACs.
Remember, combat bonuses from Aid Another stack with no limit except the number of creatures that threaten you -- so a bunch of first-level hobgoblin warriors can surround your full-plate armored 10th-level fighter, with sword wielders in the eight adjacent squares and longspear (or other reach polearm) wielders in the sixteen squares outside those. Twenty-one of them using aid another to give the remaining three a +14 attack bonus each makes a formidable threat, especially if the champions the rest of them aid are a bit tougher to begin with -- second-level fighters with Power Attack, say, or third-level rogues getting 2d6 sneak attack because you're flanked. If I'm the fighter in that scenario, I'd be very grateful for Whirlwind Attack -- or a "pat on the back" from the party's mage. There are worse things than being at the center of a friendly fireball....
Whirlwind effective, do you like spring attack? Do you like mobility? then on extra feat gains you whirlwind. Great for inquisitors with the conditions that bane can target all the targets you whirlwind. But that is one example that really shines.
I just cobbled together an 8th level Fighter with the WW tree and Lunge. If I were actually playing this PC, I think I'd be looking for ways to capitalize on Combat Expertise.Threatening Defender trait -- with CE, it's a free +1 AC.
- - -
(Half-orc, human or half-elf w/STR bump)
STR+16
DEX:14
CON:14
INT:14
WIS:12
CHA:08Level..: Ba Ft Rf Wi HP AC
00 base: -- 02 02 01 00 Traits: Threatening Defender,
01 barb1 01 04 02 01 14 move+10, Rage 6r/d, Combat Expertise
02 cler1 01 06 02 03 21 1st, Domains: Strength, Travel (spells: Enlarge, Longstrider)
03 figh1 02 08 02 03 29 Dodge, Mobility
04 figh2 03 09 02 03 37 STR>17, Spring Attack
05 figh3 04 09 03 04 45 Whirlwind Attack
06 figh4 05 10 03 04 53 Power Attack
07 figh5 06 10 03 04 61 Vital Strike
08 figh6 07 11 04 05 69 STR>18, Lunge
Interesting choice in Level Dips, Mike. That looks a pretty neat build.
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I think this kind of fight is underrated and underutilized -- it always struck me as unrealistic that, as characters advance in level, they stop encountering the low-level creatures that logically ought still to be as common as they ever were, relative to the higher-CR creatures that a higher-level party recognizes as serious threats...
...Remember, combat bonuses from Aid Another stack with no limit except the number of creatures that threaten you...
I'm totally with you on this. Also - in large enough numbers, even goblin archery becomes threatening.
I think people are leery of huge encounters like that because they think it will take forever. However, since the combat options of low-CR mooks tend to be limited to Basic attack, Combat Maneuver, or Aid Another, the math tends to be pretty simple and you can roll handfuls of dice at the same time. It goes a lot quicker than one would think.
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I think this kind of fight is underrated and underutilized -- it always struck me as unrealistic that, as characters advance in level, they stop encountering the low-level creatures that logically ought still to be as common as they ever were, relative to the higher-CR creatures that a higher-level party recognizes as serious threats...
...Remember, combat bonuses from Aid Another stack with no limit except the number of creatures that threaten you...
I'm totally with you on this. Also - in large enough numbers, even goblin archery becomes threatening.
I think people are leery of huge encounters like that because they think it will take forever. However, since the combat options of low-CR mooks tend to be limited to Basic attack, Combat Maneuver, or Aid Another, the math tends to be pretty simple and you can roll handfuls of dice at the same time. It goes a lot quicker than one would think.
near the end of a 3.x scenario that had seen the characters advance from 1st to 20th that ran for almost 2 years, one battle consisted of 50 or so Magmin, all with Improved Flank, Distracting Attack (a feat from the Miniature handbook, all allies get a +1 bonus to attack any creature that you have attacked), so the little guys ran up, clogged squares and would all begin to strike out, eventually the last guys would get into the +30's through flank, distracting attacks and what not, with each doing a d6 of fire damage. Players got pretty surprised and the danger of that encounter. Still they slaughtered them, but for a round or two it was pretty funny.
I think that whirlwind is misunderstood. It may be sub-optimal, but it should not be compared to Cleave.
Cleave/Great Cleave is chain made specifically for an offensive character. It gives a -2 penalty to AC to underline that you are giving priority to offense over defense. It's a standard action, because again, you are supposed to move and choose what enemy to strike. It's basically another option offered when you move+attack.
On the other side, whirlwind is actually a defensive move. It's at the end of a chain that increase your AC, it's supposed to be the choice of a defensive character. It's a full round action, because is meant to be used when your character is surrounded by enemies by their own volition. I'm not necessarily seeing a warrior using a reach weapon with whirlwind. On the contrary, I see a heavy tank with a shield and 1-hand weapon that pummel at enemies when they try to bring him down, with the occasional lunge when offense becomes a better option then defense.
The advantage of whirlwind is that you are always offered on roll to attack for each enemy. With great cleave, you must hit to gain another attack. Example:
Let's say that you have 4 enemies around you. Let's suppose that each enemy has a 50% chance to be hit. With great cleave, you have a 50% chance to hit the first opponent, 25% for the second, 12.5% for the third and finally only 6.25% to hit a fourth. The average number of hits you would get is 0.5 + 0.25 + 0.125 + 0.0625 = 0.9375 or LESS than 1.
With whirlwind, you can make one attack for each enemy so you get an average of 4 * 0.5 = 2 hits. Big difference.
With great cleave, a very good chance to hit is mandatory. Whirlwind can be decent even with reasonably good AC targets.
The reason why whirlwind is considered to be poor, is because for most people, an offensive build is better than a defensive one. I can understand that, but it's good to have options.
The reason why whirlwind is considered to be poor, is because for most people, an offensive build is better than a defensive one. I can understand that, but it's good to have options.
Myself, is the amount of prerequisites. The feat effect is not that bad, as I said above, with dazing assault or improved trip ( so you need to trip or force to save as much as enemies as possible, not nuke a single one).
Combat expertise and combat reflexes (say) as a prerequisite, and is a decent feat. Nothing bad in the effect per se.
The reason why whirlwind is considered to be poor, is because for most people, an offensive build is better than a defensive one. I can understand that, but it's good to have options.
Myself, is the amount of prerequisites. The feat effect is not that bad, as I said above, with dazing assault or improved trip ( so you need to trip or force to save as much as enemies as possible, not nuke a single one).
Combat expertise and combat reflexes (say) as a prerequisite, and is a decent feat. Nothing bad in the effect per se.
That's basically the problem, the feat itself is ok, and I admit, if it had less requirements, I would take it, but as it stands now, its too heavily taxed.
...I see a heavy tank with a shield and 1-hand weapon that pummel at enemies when they try to bring him down, with the occasional lunge when offense becomes a better option then defense.
I just had a wonderful image of just such a character surrounded by dozens of enemies, using Lunge and Shield Slam to bash a wide clearing with which he can escape to a better, more defensible location.
How awesome would that be!?
Count the feats needed and you will get the exact level of awesome :P
EDIT: removing the jerkness, yeah: REALLY awesome.
One of the big problems with whirlwind is that yo basically have to get yourself surrounded by enemies to use it.
If you are getting yourself surrounded by enemies, you've already messed up.
Seems to me, ive been planning on a barbarian build for a while that leaps into combat on purpose like this.
So question being, barb rages, mage casts speed on barb, could he not then move into combat (using the extra action) and then whirlwind?
Whirlwind rage seems like it would be ta ta tasty!
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One of the big problems with whirlwind is that yo basically have to get yourself surrounded by enemies to use it.
If you are getting yourself surrounded by enemies, you've already messed up.
Seems to me, ive been planning on a barbarian build for a while that leaps into combat on purpose like this.
So question being, barb rages, mage casts speed on barb, could he not then move into combat (using the extra action) and then whirlwind?
Whirlwind rage seems like it would be ta ta tasty!
Diablo much?
No.
Edit : I didn't see the previous answer.
Question;
Can WWA be used to perform multiple sneak attacks?
there was an epic feat that made wwa pretty nice if i remmber correctly you could fullattack with whirlwind and thats worth all the feats but yeah .... epic maybe a lower level version or something