This is still pertaining to my zen archer question earlier but let's take a look at the base monk flurry of blows wording.
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
When he is making his flurry of blows he is doing it "as if using two weapon fighting", "as if using improved two weapon fighting" and "as if using greater two weapon fighting".
Now, my questing is is he actually using the Two Weapon fighting feats or is it just using the Two Weapon fighting feats as an example? My DM is saying a level 8 zen archer monk can only flurry of blows making two attacks where as a level 8 monk can flurry of blows and make 4 and it is all coming back to the flurry of blows mentioning two weapon fighting.
Wow, are you kidding? Your GM only allows 2 attacks? I hope they're at least at 8/3 instead of 6/1, given you don't have the Two-weapon fighting penalty. But seriously, its pretty obvious that the ZAM is supposed to be able to make as many attacks as the flurry of blows class feature indicates. It's *like* two-weapon fighting in terms of penalties and such, but not actually two-weapon fighting.
This is still pertaining to my zen archer question earlier but let's take a look at the base monk flurry of blows wording.
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
When he is making his flurry of blows he is doing it "as if using two weapon fighting", "as if using improved two weapon fighting" and "as if using greater two weapon fighting".
Now, my questing is is he actually using the Two Weapon fighting feats or is it just using the Two Weapon fighting feats as an example? My DM is saying a level 8 zen archer monk can...
Your DM has no idea what he is talking about. There is even a chart that shows how many attacks flurries get.
|
Yep. The monk entry could just have easily gained the twf feats instead of bonus attacks. That's just there to explicitly remove the questions about whether twf and flurry are stackable.
It's the same reason the zen archer cannot take rapidshot or manyshot. Because he's still making the attacks.
Let's put this a different way for your dm.
If the zen archer wasn't supposed to get all the attacks from the flurry table, the zen archer wouldn't have given him flurry of blows in the first place. The zen archer would have just make the bow a monk weapon, and removed all other monk weapons instead.
The ONLY reason to make it a flurry of blows is to allow the additional attacks from flurry of blows.
Because the entry allows you to flurry with the bow:
"Starting at 1st level, a zen archer
can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only
when using a bow (even though it is a ranged weapon)."
The monk can flurry with a bow, which includes the bab change and the additional attacks.
Yes but this still isn't giving complete clarification to rules as written. A monks flurry treats him as having two weapon fighting with flurry. Just saying "oh well go by the table in the base book" isn't good enough. Why does it go by that table? That table was for the base book, before the APG's zen archer was in mind. What are the rules as written that say a zen archer monk gets the same attacks as any other monk who can actually attack with two hands where as a zen archer monk only has one hand to attack with
Can you explain his reasoning more thoroughly? Cause it sounds like he's just making up a reason to nerf it. I really don't get his argument.
EDIT: Ah you posted while i read/wrote this.
Nothing in the flurry of blows states that you actually have to use anything other than a single fist to make all of the attacks.
And that table is for the base book. And the archetype is for the base class. If the table were different it would say so.
Why would it still call it a flurry and not specify that it's so different from the original, when it would have been just as easy (and far less confusing) to just call it something else for the zen archer?
yar!
I believe that his DM's argument is this:
Because flurry of blows "acts as if he was two-weapon fighting", he must, therefore, use two weapons to gain any benefit from it.
Therefore, even though it says that you can "flurry with your bow, even though it's a ranged weapon", because it's only one weapon and not two, you can't gain extra attacks by flurrying with it, because it is "as if using two-weapon fighting", which requires more than one weapon.
I guess that means, to your DM's eyes, the only benefit to "flurry" with a Zen Archer monk is the increased BAB on those attacks.
However, this would also mean that a normal monk would HAVE to use two weapons in order to flurry. He would not be able to make all of his flurry attacks with unarmed strikes. He would have to combine it with some other monk weapon as well, or always have two monk weapons in hand if he wasn’t using unarmed strikes.
I would go into more details about how and why, by RAW, I think this is incorrect, and that a Monk should be able to make every attack in his flurry with a single monk weapon (or combination of any monk weapons he has), along with links to the rules and links to other threads where this has been discussed (and it has been discussed in other thread, they do exist, I recommend searching for them), but alas, I don't have the time for that right now.
Good luck! ^_^
~P
That is nice, it doesn't state that you have to use anything more than a single fist for the attack BUT at level 8 the monk is treated as using improved two weapon fighting to get his additional attacks. How do you apply improved two weapon fighting to a bow? You eventually get in to off hand attacks. Your bow is a two handed weapon, you do not have an off hand. (to davicks post)
That is nice, it doesn't state that you have to use anything more than a single fist for the attack BUT at level 8 the monk is treated as using improved two weapon fighting to get his additional attacks. How do you apply improved two weapon fighting to a bow? You eventually get in to off hand attacks. Your bow is a two handed weapon, you do not have an off hand. (to davicks post)
The salient feature of ITWF is that you gain an additional attack at a -5 penalty from your normal main attack and that all of your attacks still come in at a -2 penalty. That's all this is indicating by comparing it to Improved TWF. Greater TWF gives another attack at a -10 penalty from your main attack. That's it.
If you are attacking with a weapon, you would get +15/+10/+5
If you are attacking with two weapons, you would get +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3
If you are attacking with a bow, you would get +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3
But again, two weapon fighting does not work with a bow. It is a two handed weapon. You can't off hand a two handed weapon. Is there somewhere specifically saying that the bow is treated as a one handed weapon for the purposes of the zen archers flurry?
twf does not need to work with a bow. the zen archer gets the full benefit of flurry. if he didn't they would have removed it and let him use rapid shot like every one else.
so your dm is essentially saying no to any benefit from flurry and likely also denying him rapid shot and manyshot.
the benefits of flurry reasonably mimic the feats the zen archer cannot use. he is not actually using twf.
Ok, yes. TWF does need to work with a bow. This is the whole issue. You are just saying it works but giving no proof with rules as written because rules as written state Flurry of Blows is performed as with two weapon fighting. It does need to work, otherwise the APG needs an errata for the zen archer because everything is poorly worded. I am looking for an official rules as written answer, and references as to where you are getting the answers from. Books, page numbers. Maybe there is something in the Gamemasters guide I am missing because I don't actually own a GMG. What would be nice is if one of pathfinders head rules guys saw this post and made a reply on it as to how this works because no one here is really answering the question. They are just saying it works, not why it works. As I read more and more into this and talking with my GM I am actually starting to agree with him and he actually pointed out the zen archer is actually good as a character who wants to just make one really powerful attack rather than many attacks in his flurry. I am not saying it is wrong and that monks shouldn't be getting all the attacks put into the flurry chart but I am saying rules as written my GM is making more sense than anyone here so far. No one is trying to show me the rules that say a zen archer gets all those attack, they are just saying he does because he has the flurry of blows ability which still functions as a normal monk's flurry which uses two weapon fighting which does not work with bows.
You aren't comprehending. Flurry of Blows mentions TWF ONLY as a shorthand way to describe the effects of the later feats. You aren't ACTUALLY using TWF when you flurry. You don't need two weapons, you aren't getting only half your Str bonus on your off-hand attack (because you don't HAVE an off-hand attack), you don't have to decide which weapon to attack with, because you are only attacking with one weapon.
The writers used TWF as a shortcut to saying that you gain an additional attack at your highest base attack bonus -5 at the same -2 penalty as your other flurry attacks, and then another attack at a -10 at the same -2 penalty as your other flurry attacks. That's it.
Further, Zen Archer says that you get Flurry of Blows without specifying that you lose 2 of the extra attacks that Flurry of Blows. If you were to lose those attacks, it would surely point that out. The fact that no one here but you is disagreeing on these points should tell you something, even if none of the other presented evidence does.
I'll see if I can rephrase this. flurry works with the. ow because the archetype says it does. however going beyond that. I'll give an example.
lvl 6 monk 18stat flurries for 8 8 3.
lvl 6 fighter with twf and imp twf is ... 8 8 3. 3
lvl 6 ranger with bow rapid shot and many shot is 8 8 3 but his first hit his 2 arrows so if all hit it's 4 arrows, notice this is the same number of hits the fighter gets. just I'n 3 attacks.
zen archer monk is 8 8 3. flurry mimics rapid shot.
now move to l lvl 8. the zen archer flurries for 10 10 5 5. this is 1 more attack but the same number of arrows the ranger was firing at lvl 6 ( 2 levels ago)
just treat the zen flurry as In stead of twf he is.... and this may be repetitive rapid shot and many shot.
nothing I'n the monk flurry requires using two weapons many players flurry with a single weapon. the flurry just mimics twf I'n how it raises your number of attacks and that line stops players from using it with the feats.
|
Starting at 1 st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon
any combination. like shoot shoot shoot shoot
the any combination line means you can use 1 weapon + 0 others for all the attacks.
Ok, name violation got the closest thing so far. But then it comes to the issue where a zen archer monk is only becoming proficient with the bows. it never calls them a monk weapon. And when you flurry you effectively have two weapon fighting. That is what the "as if" means. you basically gain those feats for a moment but then lose them again.
Ok, name violation got the closest thing so far. But then it comes to the issue where a zen archer monk is only becoming proficient with the bows. it never calls them a monk weapon. And when you flurry you effectively have two weapon fighting. That is what the "as if" means. you basically gain those feats for a moment but then lose them again.
No, it doesn't, as I and others have explained.
You can flurry with one weapon. You cannot two weapon fight with one weapon. The two abilities don't work the same way. Flurry's wording uses TWF for two purposes: so it doesn't have to explain how two nearly identical effects work twice, and so that it is clear that you cannot ALSO take the TWF feats to stack with flurry, which was a constant debate in D&D 3.5. The writers could have done a better job clarifying all that, but that is the end result nonetheless.
It doesn't matter whether Zen Archery specifically calls a bow a monk weapon, because it says that you get proficiency with a bow in place of the monk weapons and that you can use flurry of blows with a bow.
Really, at this point to continue to argue the point is simply being antagonistic amd purposefully dense. Or maybe you don't actually want the extra attacks that are allocated to you. Some people like playing intentionally weak characters.
zulpy your dm its nerfing you... i mean me as a dm would go yeah thats what they meant and if they didn't well change it cause it makes more since... otherwise why play it
|
|
Flurry of Blows ( Ex ) Starting at 1 st level, a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a bow (even though it is a ranged weapon). He may not make a flurry of blows with his unarmed attacks or any other weapons.
a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a bow
zen archer can flurry of blows using a bow
What's the problem. It specifically says they can make those attacks.
the only problem is bows aren't being called a special monk weapon. everything else is dead now, the two weapon fighting issue that is. It is just a matter of house ruling it that for the zen archer bows are special monk weapons because that should of been put in but it wasn't. it never states they are special monk weapons at any time, only that the monk can flurry with a bow. it always comes down to the gms word in the end and because he was reading to much into how it worked he got me reading to much into how it worked.
But again, two weapon fighting does not work with a bow. It is a two handed weapon. You can't off hand a two handed weapon. Is there somewhere specifically saying that the bow is treated as a one handed weapon for the purposes of the zen archers flurry?
The correct question is does any weapon that uses FoB said to get less attacks than the others that use FoB. The answer is no. By the rules all weapons that use FoB go by the FoB rules and the chart. There is no all weapons except ______ get all the attacks.
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat
Starting at 1st level, a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a bow (even though it is a ranged weapon).
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.[b]At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks[b/] when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
[b]At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks[b/] using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
Note the the header is flurry of blows and the rest tells you how to use it. The chart does most of the math for you, except for what is on your character sheet.
Is an Zen archer allowed to use flurry of blows?-->Yes, because the APG says so.
How many attacks does flurry of blows do?-->The chart and text tell us.
Does the APG say that the bow receives less attacks than other weapons that work with FoB-->No it doesn't.
Does the flurry of blows state that the monk is using TWF?-->No. It only explains you are fighting as if you were using it. The reason is so people don't try to stack them to get extra attacks, and to explain where the penalties are coming from.
the only problem is bows aren't being called a special monk weapon. everything else is dead now, the two weapon fighting issue that is. It is just a matter of house ruling it that for the zen archer bows are special monk weapons because that should of been put in but it wasn't. it never states they are special monk weapons at any time, only that the monk can flurry with a bow. it always comes down to the gms word in the end and because he was reading to much into how it worked he got me reading to much into how it worked.
Did you read the weapon proficiencies for the class? It specifically states the Monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a bow. That should be all you need to go off of right there. As others have pointed out, FoB is a class feature, not a line of feats, so your DMs "It's twf and you have one weapon" reason doesn't hold water.
sigh look at it this way... but I'm repeating myself but here goes.
playing a zen archer unable to flurry as intended is a waste of time. the rules your dm is insisting on cripples the archetype.
rapped shot and many shot are basically twf and imp twf. the mechanics are slightly different but they achieve the same thing.
basically a lvl 8 zen archer is supposed to be able to flurry and fire 4 arrows.
why? because that's how many arrows he would be firing if he could use the two feats it says he cannot use while he flurries.
lvl 8 ranger fires 4 arrows, lvl 8 ranger attacks 4 times with melee weapon, lvl 8 monk attacks 4 times with melee weapons.
so how many arrows does the game intend for a lvl 8 zen archer to fire? it's a number between 3 and 5.
sigh look at it this way... but I'm repeating myself but here goes.
playing a zen archer unable to flurry as intended is a waste of time. the rules your dm is insisting on cripples the archetype.
rapped shot and many shot are basically twf and imp twf. the mechanics are slightly different but they achieve the same thing.
basically a lvl 8 zen archer is supposed to be able to flurry and fire 4 arrows.
why? because that's how many arrows he would be firing if he could use the two feats it says he cannot use while he flurries.
lvl 8 ranger fires 4 arrows, lvl 8 ranger attacks 4 times with melee weapon, lvl 8 monk attacks 4 times with melee weapons.
so how many arrows does the game intend for a lvl 8 zen archer to fire? it's a number between 3 and 5.
Three and a half?
Three and a half?sigh look at it this way... but I'm repeating myself but here goes.
playing a zen archer unable to flurry as intended is a waste of time. the rules your dm is insisting on cripples the archetype.
rapped shot and many shot are basically twf and imp twf. the mechanics are slightly different but they achieve the same thing.
basically a lvl 8 zen archer is supposed to be able to flurry and fire 4 arrows.
why? because that's how many arrows he would be firing if he could use the two feats it says he cannot use while he flurries.
lvl 8 ranger fires 4 arrows, lvl 8 ranger attacks 4 times with melee weapon, lvl 8 monk attacks 4 times with melee weapons.
so how many arrows does the game intend for a lvl 8 zen archer to fire? it's a number between 3 and 5.
No, silly. 4.2.
whole numbers only!!! :P
|
|
the only problem is bows aren't being called a special monk weapon. everything else is dead now, the two weapon fighting issue that is. It is just a matter of house ruling it that for the zen archer bows are special monk weapons because that should of been put in but it wasn't. it never states they are special monk weapons at any time, only that the monk can flurry with a bow. it always comes down to the gms word in the end and because he was reading to much into how it worked he got me reading to much into how it worked.
Can... Flurry... With bow. Read it. It doesn't have to be a special monk weapon. Hell, a ZA can't flurry with special weapons, ONLY a bow. I don't see why you refuse to believe the words printed.
the only problem is bows aren't being called a special monk weapon. everything else is dead now, the two weapon fighting issue that is. It is just a matter of house ruling it that for the zen archer bows are special monk weapons because that should of been put in but it wasn't. it never states they are special monk weapons at any time, only that the monk can flurry with a bow. it always comes down to the gms word in the end and because he was reading to much into how it worked he got me reading to much into how it worked.Can... Flurry... With bow. Read it. It doesn't have to be a special monk weapon. Hell, a ZA can't flurry with special weapons, ONLY a bow. I don't see why you refuse to believe the words printed.
Words don't matter. <runs away>