Had an issue in game and want it cleared up. Was told one thing but can't find it stated anywhere.
Does damage reduction effect sneak attack damage separately from the weapons base damage?
Example:
Rogue hits flanked enemy.
Enemy has DR5/-.
Rogue deals 1D6+3 base damage and 2D6 sneak attack.
Does the enemy take
A: 3D6+3-5or does it take
B: (1D6+3-5)+(2D6-5)
A
AHad an issue in game and want it cleared up. Was told one thing but can't find it stated anywhere.
Does damage reduction effect sneak attack damage separately from the weapons base damage?
Example:
Rogue hits flanked enemy.
Enemy has DR5/-.
Rogue deals 1D6+3 base damage and 2D6 sneak attack.
Does the enemy take
A: 3D6+3-5or does it take
B: (1D6+3-5)+(2D6-5)
Unless Pathfinder changed DR
C (1d6+3-5)+(2d6) & if you only roll say 4 damage w/ the base damage you do no sneak attack damage, see page 561 core book.
I've always played it according to your option "A".
Unless Pathfinder changed DR
C (1d6+3-5)+(2d6) & if you only roll say 4 damage w/ the base damage you do no sneak attack damage, see page 561 core book.
This is an understandable position but incorrect. Bonus damage is always factored in the damage not the rider effects.
Rider effects include things like:
Poison
Energy Drain (rarely)
Grab
Wounding
Disease
Curses
Bonus damage on the initial hit is part of the hit itself and is not a rider effect. As such it helps you overcome the DR.
Unless Pathfinder changed DR
C (1d6+3-5)+(2d6) & if you only roll say 4 damage w/ the base damage you do no sneak attack damage, see page 561 core book.This is an understandable position but incorrect. Bonus damage is always factored in the damage not the rider effects.
Rider effects include things like:
Poison
Energy Drain (rarely)
Grab
Wounding
Disease
CursesBonus damage on the initial hit is part of the hit itself and is not a rider effect. As such it helps you overcome the DR.
Like I said "Unless Pathfinder Changed it" in 3.5 you did not get sneak attack damage unless your base damage did at least 1 point of damage above the DR. This was the case for any non-weapon damage per rules compendium (D&D 3.5). ? where did you find the Bonus vs. Rider deal?
The best line that comes even close to supporting the position that DR can prevent sneak attack is the following from 3.5:
Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury type poison, a monk’s stunning, and injury type disease. Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.
The problem is sneak attack is bonus damage as such it is part of the damage -- it would be like saying "well if DR will prevent the damage before your str mod bonus damage then you don't get your str mod bonus damage."
It just doesn't hold up. All damage from an attack is dealt at once.
If the attack fails to do damage then effects that "ride" on the damage -- such as injury type poisons, stunning fist, or energy drain have no effect.
Now I am slightly wrong on a few points, from the pathfinder core rule book:
Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury poison, a monk's stunning, and injury-based disease. Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains.
Now we see that energy drain carries through regardless (which I said it wouldn't).
As to why sneak attack is bonus damage?
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
As such if the attack hits it is weapon damage + str mod + other mods + sneak attack = total damage.
Not weapon damage + str mod + other mods = total damage - DR (if DR is overcome) + sneak attack damage.
All damage is factored into the damage when the damage is dealt.
Like I said "Unless Pathfinder Changed it" in 3.5 you did not get sneak attack damage unless your base damage did at least 1 point of damage above the DR. This was the case for any non-weapon damage per rules compendium (D&D 3.5).Can you actually post the rules for that? Because that's not true in 3.5 to the best of my knowledge; sneak attack is always applied before DR (just like Ranger's favored enemy bonuses).
Point 6 on pg 42 of the 3.5 Rules Compendium:
To deal precision damage, an attacker must be able to
reach the target’s vital spots. If the attacker can’t do so,
he can’t deal precision damage
The compendium make sneak attacks "Precision Damage", so our group took this as "base damage negated by DR - no precision damage - no sneak attack."
And
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to
pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot.
A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature
with concealment.
Pathfinder rogue
If the base attack is negeted by DR, you cannot reach a vital spot, can you??
Since 3.5 has been brought up: The 3.5 FAQ specified that both bane and the "punishing stance" maneuver can help you deal damage to a creature with DR, because of the extra damage you deal. If those types of "extra damage" are applied before DR is subtracted, then I can see no reason why sneak attack wouldn't also be. Unfortunately there was no FAQ-entry specifically regarding sneak attack vs DR, but I think these are similar enough.
Suppose I have a weapon that is bane vs. constructs and
it is not made of adamantine. If I attack an iron golem with
this weapon, does the weapon bypass the golem’s damage
reduction? In general, will a bane weapon bypass damage
reduction when you use it to attack a designated foe?The bane property doesn’t bypass damage reduction. If you
hit a designated foe, however, the extra damage you deal helps
you overcome any damage reduction the foe has. For example,
if you have a Strength score of 16 and you hit an iron golem
with a +1 construct bane longsword, you’ll deal 1d8 +1 (base
damage from the +1 sword) +2 (extra enhancement bonus
against your designated foe from the bane property) + 3
(Strength bonus) + 2d6 (bonus damage against your designated
foe). On average you’ll deal 17 or 18 points of damage to the
golem, which is enough to get a few points of damage past the
golem’s damage reduction of 15/adamantine.
Many strikes and maneuvers in ToB grant a benefit
with a successful attack. If a creature’s damage reduction
completely negates the damage from the attack, does the
benefit still accrue?As it turns out, there are four answers to this question: sort
of yes, yes, yes, and no.
If the maneuver or stance simply adds to the damage dealt
by the attack, add that damage before applying damage
reduction (which might in turn reduce or even negate that extra
damage). For example, a character in the Punishing Stance adds
+1d6 to damage rolls with melee attacks. If you hit a creature
with DR 10/— with attack that deals 8 points of damage and an
extra 3 points from Punishing Stance, that creature would take
1 point of damage.
If the maneuver or stance adds energy damage to the attack
(such as Lightning Throw), damage reduction doesn’t reduce
that damage (see Damage Reduction, DMG 291-292).
If the maneuver or stance simply requires a hit (or
“successful attack”) to apply its effect, that effect occurs even if
you don’t deal damage with the attack that triggers it. Even if
your foe’s DR completely negates the damage from your
Leading the Attack strike, your allies still gain the +4 morale
bonus on attack rolls and your Martial Spirit stance still allows
you to heal 2 points of damage.
If the maneuver or stance requires you to deal damage to
the target, damage reduction that completely negates the
damage dealt by the attack prevents the special effect from
occurring. This is similar to the Stunning Fist feat (which
functions only against a foe “damaged by your unarmed
attack”) or injury-based disease or poison effects.
And
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to
pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot.
A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature
with concealment.Pathfinder rogue
If the base attack is negeted by DR, you cannot reach a vital spot, can you??
Not true at all. The inability to reach something, and the ability to damage it are not even the same thing. If I stab you in the face, but your DR stops the damage that does not mean I can't reach your face.
The line you are quoting refers to attacking creatures whose vital organs are out of reach and nothing else. An example is if the rogue attacks a monster whose vital organ closest to the ground is 15 feet high.PS:How the heck does not reach=not penetrate DR?
edit:
Damage from Sneak AttacksThe bonus damage from a sneak attack is expressed as extra dice and it is not multiplied with a successful critical hit, or when an attack otherwise gets a damage multiplier. For example, a rogue charging with a mounted lance can make a sneak attack, but the damage multiplier for the mounted charge doesn't apply to the sneak attack.
A successful sneak attack increases the damage dealt. When you make a sneak attack against a foe with damage reduction, roll the sneak damage and add it to the damage from the hit before applying the effects of damage reduction.
Sneak attack damage is always the same type of damage as the weapon used to make the sneak attack. For example, if you make a sneak attack with a sword (a slashing weapon), all the damage from the sneak attack is slashing damage (also see the Spells as Sneak Attacks section in Part Four).
I play a druid who spends all his time in earth elemental form so he gets DR 5/- and is immune to poisons and sneak attacks. So funniest thing happened, he broke into a warehouse and their protection was a rogue hiding. So it came up to my character and tried sneak attacking with a dagger of venom. Funniest thing was my DM asking me what my character was immune to, and then goes take 4 damage, and I replied so non then with my DR. So the rogue npc goes "aww crap" and bolts.
And
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to
pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot.
A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature
with concealment.Pathfinder rogue
If the base attack is negeted by DR, you cannot reach a vital spot, can you??
Not true at all. The inability to reach something, and the ability to damage it are not even the same thing. If I stab you in the face, but your DR stops the damage that does not mean I can't reach your face.
The line you are quoting refers to attacking creatures whose vital organs are out of reach and nothing else. An example is if the rogue attacks a monster whose vital organ closest to the ground is 15 feet high.PS:How the heck does not reach=not penetrate DR?
edit:
Link provided
Damage from Sneak AttacksThe bonus damage from a sneak attack is expressed as extra dice and it is not multiplied with a successful critical hit, or when an attack otherwise gets a damage multiplier. For example, a rogue charging with a mounted lance can make a sneak attack, but the damage multiplier for the mounted charge doesn't apply to the sneak attack.
A successful sneak attack increases the damage dealt. When you make a sneak attack against a foe with damage reduction, roll the sneak damage and add it to the damage from the hit before applying the effects of damage reduction.
Sneak attack damage is always the same type of damage as the weapon used to make the sneak attack. For example, if you make a sneak attack with a sword (a slashing weapon), all the damage from the sneak attack is slashing damage (also see the Spells as Sneak Attacks section in Part Four).
Never got that "Rules of the Game" download. We took the "must be able to reach" part as "if the DR negates a stab to the heart you dont reach the heat (the Vital part)". This is easer to see this with DRs that the damage never get through as ones that heal over right away. Our Bad. Boards are fun this way!!
Does Sneak Attack damage then count as the same damage type as your attack did? IE piercing, bludgeoning, good-aligned, etc...? Isn't there a distinction made between damage and precision damage? Does that matter here?
Does Sneak Attack damage then count as the same damage type as your attack did? IE piercing, bludgeoning, good-aligned, etc...?
Yes.