*shrug* Start a thread asking how many people have made it through an AP. There have been threads like that in the past and the overwhelming majority of groups that start an AP don't finish it. It's possible they are all run by bad/lazy/poorly planned DMs, but that seems to be the way D&D is frequently played.
Sure games have ended because people have moved away. Or a general change of interest by the players. That stuff does happen. I did not mean to say it is the only reason why games end early. Though I am curious why youre games don't seem to last beyond level 5 much?
Though the problem with the above statement is that you are assuming that the majoity of people who play Pathfinder comes here and posts. Of the 20 something people that I play Pathfinder with only I really come here and post.
That said, higher level modules/support are items frequently requested, so it's also clear that a lot of people do have long running high level campaigns (though, again, I would submit that at some point during such campaigns, the players/DM will find themselves rolling up a new character for a one-off game, side game, or convention).
Sure one the groups I play with has a bunch of games active...at the same time. But all of those games are meant to go high level and will eventualy. Though you mentioned conventions....again out of the group I play with most don't go to conventions...again I don't think it is a majority of player who do this.
That's debatable. Paizo has not published all that many prestige classes. The vast majority of their books don't have any. As far as I know, there hasn't been a thread here yet asking for prestige classes. The public's appetite for prestige classes does not seem that large...
Of course it is debatable. If it was easy than everybody could do this. And you are right...with the PrCs from 3.5...and their use of archetypes PrCs are less needed...but there is still room for them and a need.
Heck one of the characters I just made is a Rogue with the archetype of Spy with plans to go Master Spy. I do not see this as a archetype vs PrC type thing. I think they both make the game better.
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But on the idea behind PrCs, I disagree. I think they should be specific, very specific, and not allow just any old combination to qualify.
Oh gods no, that means in order to get the PrC you have to intend from level one to get the PrC, and that means that the PrC get very limited use, which is something you saw in 3.5 there'd be a bunch of great PrCs but they were uber specific meaning you had to plan to get them from level 1 and because of that you never saw them in play. I don't want a glut of highly specific PrCs that will never get a chance to be used. and you'll have to get a glut because you need to create an barbarian witch combo, and a barbarian bard combo, because you have to have them because you made the caster barb combo so specific and some people want to play a caster barb without using the oracle.
perfect postI think it would be hard to get a better explanation. Thanks.
Ditto
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I enjoy the concept of prestige classes, in much the same way I like the advanced careers in warhammer. I particularly liked the prestige Ranger and Paladin from Unearthed Arcana, a prestige class you could get around level 3 or 4.
I also like the NPC classes, so you could have a 3 tier system. Start off with an "NPC" class, move into a "PC" class, with the prestige class being the cherry on the cake.
However, what happens when you want to be a ranger from level 1? Do you just start a level 3 campaign so the player can play the character they want to? Its the difficulty I have with prestige classes in the game. What if I want a 1st level Dragon Disciple? I have to wait until I've played 6 levels of something else.
Also most NPC's are way below 6th level. Having a prestige order of knights immediately places them around level 7+, with leaders being significantly higher...
Curious as to what people think of paragon paths for Pathfinder.
That's debatable. Paizo has not published all that many prestige classes. The vast majority of their books don't have any. As far as I know, there hasn't been a thread here yet asking for prestige classes. The public's appetite for prestige classes does not seem that large...
This maybe due to the bloat of PrC's from WotC over the years. As such the need for new ones is fairly low. If for example I want to use a few for my game, conversion, if it is even needed, is fairly easy. That whole backwards compatibility thing and all those books I previously purchased. I like PrC's but only ones that are highly specific and tied to a campaign.
Oh gods no, that means in order to get the PrC you have to intend from level one to get the PrC, and that means that the PrC get very limited use, which is something you saw in 3.5 there'd be a bunch of great PrCs but they were uber specific meaning you had to plan to get them from level 1 and because of that you never saw them in play. I don't want a glut of highly specific PrCs that will never get a chance to be used. and you'll have to get a glut because you need to create an barbarian witch combo, and a barbarian bard combo, because you have to have them because you made the caster barb combo so specific and some people want to play a caster barb without using the oracle.
But on the idea behind PrCs, I disagree. I think they should be specific, very specific, and not allow just any old combination to qualify.
It would simply mean they found an organization in play that took them in a direction they were headed anyway. This makes the most sense, imho.
YMMV
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Curious as to what people think of paragon paths for Pathfinder.
Not moved on the first look. All the problems of prestige classes with extra restrictions. Really, two feats, certain skills, and you have to enter at 3rd level for the dragon path? Hardly for organic characters.
Looking at the BAB/Saves progression, any character who takes the path will end up with a BAB one higher and saves three higher on good saves, and four higher on poor saves. I see the progressions change for other classes, but I'd really have to look at the path abilities to even guess at balance. There is literally no reason NOT to go Dragonblooded Disciple for a non-spellcasting class unless the higher level class features are a tradeoff.
Curious as to what people think of paragon paths for Pathfinder.
Conceptually, I find it quite interesting. Mechanically, I find it quite confusing.
I like the idea of picking a path and gaining one level in it every few levels instead of your regular choice. I find the mechanical changes confusing, though. Specifically: Why do the first, third, and fifth paragon levels require sacrificing a feat? Why does the fourth require sacrificing an attribute point? Why don't they have a normal BAB/Save progression that you can add to your existing totals like normal? Given how many abilities work based on your level in a class, why would an elven wizard even think of taking the elven exemplar class, when it's going to hurt their spellcasting, and their progressions for their school abilities?
There's no reason it couldn't be implemented as a 6-level prestige class with a special requirement that you have to take the 1st level as your 3rd character level, your 2nd level as your 6th, etc. Awkward, but less so.
The big things I hate with PrCs though.. or rather thing.. Is useless feat tax.
Like Low Templar
Weapon focus and mounted combat.
Weapon focus is a good feat, but if you go through what the low templar gets... Particularly the dirty fighting ability at level 2, then its kinda useless for the class.
And he gains nothing in being able to fight on a horse.
If I was designing the class, I'd have it require combat expertise and probably any improved trip/disarm type feats. If rereleasing it now, Id have that second feat be improved dirty trick.
I think Prestige classes are very good and very much needed and helps add depth to the game
I agree mechanics wise the DCs can get rediculous.
But on the idea behind PrCs, I disagree. I think they should be specific, very specific, and not allow just any old combination to qualify.I don't mind some prestige classes that are specific but I would hate it for example if eldritch knight was only available for a wizard/fighter combination that was an elf that had to have weapon specialization in longsword.
That would kill the PrC for me.
I use prestige classes to get where my character normally couldn't for his class -- getting uncanny dodge for a fighter with shadowdancer for example, or hide in plain sight... etc.
I don't want a bunch of prestige classes that shoehorn me into a specific build.
Now that said the requirements for a prestige class should make sense for the class, and to some extent should limit what can and can't get int (for example it wouldn't make sense for a straight fighter to be able to take levels in arcane trickster). But for the most part for multi-class prestige classes like the rage prophet, eldritch knight, mystic theurge, and arcane trickster I want to be able to get into the prestige class as many ways as possible so I don't have to have:
Eldritch knight for wizard/fighter
Eldritch knight for paladin/sorcerer
Eldritch knight for barbarian/sorcerer
Eldritch knight for barbarian/oracle
Eldritch knight for witch/rangerEtc...
I agree with Abraham. A prestige class should have flexibility, and I try to build flexibility when I design the class. I may have an iconic character in mind, but I also think of other character types that might go in that direction.
I remember how in the original Runequest game, for each cult, there was an entry in the write-up for "Reason for Existence". Considering a Prestige Class's reason to exist, they might want to have requirements to "keep out the riff-raff."
For example, in the Judge PrC I designed, requirements included ranks in skills Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and Profession (Lawyer). This is so that you don't get some yahoo trying to Judge with only 1 rank in Profession (Lawyer) and no ranks in Diplomacy. But the Judges are not going to be concerned with whether or not you are a Paladin vs a Monk, or whether you've planned on Judging from the day you gained your first experience point, or whether you just thought about the possibility last week Tuesday, but happened to be close enough that you could get in next level.
Even though I prefer prestige classes to archetypes, I hope to see both in future books. I just might want to use archetypes someday, and even if I don't, maybe I can get some ideas from them.
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Even though I prefer prestige classes to archetype
Depending upon the archtype, of course.
In 3.5, with very few exceptions (Radiant Servant, Sublime Chord, fighter2/paladinX), the best prestige classes or multiclasses for bard, cleric, druid and paladin were....
....straight bard, cleric, druid or paladin.
Anything else was a "munchkin-trap" which forfeited the massive end-loaded power of those classes.
90% of 3.5 prestige classes were garbage.
Even though I prefer prestige classes to archetypeDepending upon the archtype, of course.
In 3.5, with very few exceptions (Radiant Servant, Sublime Chord, fighter2/paladinX), the best prestige classes or multiclasses for bard, cleric, druid and paladin were....
....straight bard, cleric, druid or paladin.
Anything else was a "munchkin-trap" which forfeited the massive end-loaded power of those classes.
90% of 3.5 prestige classes were garbage.
Actually, 90% of everything is garbage, especially from third party publishers, which is why I need a lot of everything to get that 10% that is good.
Cept now everyone who wants to be an assassin, has to go rogue instead of having some rangers/monks/rogues/fighters etc.
Sneak attack isn't an Assassin requirement to enter the Prestige Class anymore. I was very surprised to see that myself when I was building my BBEG for a campaign.
Despite this, Sneak Attack isn't really as much of an iconic Rogue ability anymore because of the Archetype system. Off the top of my head, the new Vivisectionist archetype (for Alchemists)and the Sandman Archetype (for Bards) both grant their class a Sneak Attack progression. I think their might be more, too.
Cept now everyone who wants to be an assassin, has to go rogue instead of having some rangers/monks/rogues/fighters etc.Sneak attack isn't an Assassin requirement to enter the Prestige Class anymore. I was very surprised to see that myself when I was building my BBEG for a campaign.
I believe Ævux was referring to the suggestion of making Assassin an archetype for the Rogue. Which would prevent any other class from becoming Assassins :)
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Basically what you are describing is a very open talent system. And it works ok for very small games. The moment you start expanding them it gets very very messy, and makes building a character something of a chore. That is because there is no real structure to a character besides what you choose, everything is a choice. If there are only a few choices no big deal, but if there is a large amount, it becomes overwhelming and time consuming.It is one of the reasons my group has almost stopped playing star wars saga edition. In that system there are a couple 'classes' which for a barebones framework for a character (BAB Defences, skills and hp). Then each level you get a talent or a feat. Feats are what they are here, and talents are like class abilities. And when there was just the first book it wasnt much of an issue.
But when the system expanded, it started becoming difficult. Abilities were spread all over the place, and it takes literally hours to go through all the books and sort out which talents make sense for your concept, and then a fair amount of time after that to actually choose between them. When we got into high levels my prep time as a dm skyrocketed making npcs.
Take your example. Imagine as a dm you needed to build an npc cleric. Imagine how much more time that would take in your system then it would to build one in the current system. Now multiply that buy the dozens of npcs that appear in a typical adventure. For a player, it becomes a hassle, for a dm its a nightmare.
I've recently been having this in alot of games. In the ways RPGs are typically produced, this is indeed a huge nightmare. I'm starting to feel this way about Pathfinder at this point too. Things are simply way too spread out.
However, if things are all collected into one place, and that place happens to be a computer database searchable with keywords, it's painless and simple, and quite doable. Even if they're compiled into one big list in a PDF. As Kolokotroni said, it's not too bad in one book[list].
If the info you're looking for is spread out over several books, the DM work is a nightmare unless you only make a half-assed attempt, and even then it's a problem.
I'd like to see RPGs coming out with something like D&D4e's CB and Compendium in one product, that doesn't follow a subscription model or the package model of HeroLab, but instead lets you key in a CD-Key from inside the book to collect the updates automatically for all the books you own, which compiles everything into one giant digital rulebook *Printable of course.
When this happens, I'll be happy to switch my purchases over to digital, and I'll be willing to pay more than I am now for a PDF.
*Let this count as 'dibs' to show that I had the idea first, in case I ever release an RPG product like this, to show I'm not ripping off anyone else's idea.
I believe Ævux was referring to the suggestion of making Assassin an archetype for the Rogue. Which would prevent any other class from becoming Assassins :)
Ah, that makes a good deal of sense. I respectfully disagree with Ævux's sentiments then, as it would make the villain I mentioned impossible to build :).
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However, if things are all collected into one place, and that place happens to be a computer database searchable with keywords, it's painless and simple, and quite doable.
TOZ likes! :)
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Wait'll we get Trinam in here! Our names are even similar.
Then there's Kirth Gersen and Brian Bachman. Hard to keep track of who's talking with them in one thread.
And Gorbacz and Dragonsong. And all the other talking bags with nasty big pointy teeth.
Best avatar in the list. Great minds must think alike.
Besides, Cayden Cailean is a bro. And the coolest fantasy god ever published.
Sup TOZ! Wouldn't that be awesome? I hope that becomes the industry standard. Soner rather than later. I hate lugging 10+ books everywhere, so I bring my laptop. The books sit on my shelf. though it would be nice if I didn't have to sort through PDFs all the time.
I have a buddy who (after my suggestion) disassembled his bestiary PDFs, and dumped them in a big folder. Each monster has its own pdf, and windows sorts them alphabetically. He has google desktop too, so the text inside the pdfs is also indexed. He can find a monster to fit any purpose, and quick too. But I think it took him a good 8 hours of disassembling and labelling to get to that point. That's the closest I've seen to the DB I was talking about. d20pfsrd would be the next closest, but it doesn't include everything.
*Oh! The database would need to be local too. Sometimes we don't have net access while gaming.
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Whew, that IS impressive. I'm lucky my players don't get into crazy fights I'm not prepared for too often...
Lots of random encounter tables. I always got the impression even He had no idea where the plot was going. He does a better job at the improv than I do though.
He has it set up so he can type in something like (water OR sea OR lake OR aqua)AND("CR 7" OR "CR 8" OR "CR 9") and immediately have a relevant list of things that match. Just saying. It would be nice to have that without having to disassemble everything and build it myself. lol
That sounds like something that could be immensely useful. Suggest that he publishes it :)
(of course, then he'd have to remove all the original Bestiary artwork and so on and so forth).
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He had a harder time dealing with when we would pick a fight with the town sheriff, or some city watch, or some mages, or whatever, because he didn't have a DB of NPCs. lol. So of course, once in a while we'd go out of our way to do it, just to rib him a little. :P
That sounds like something that could be immensely useful. Suggest that he publishes it :)
(of course, then he'd have to remove all the original Bestiary artwork and so on and so forth).
Well, no custom documents at the moment though. They're all made up of pages ripped from the pdfs. And you'd need to have Google Desktop to get that search functionality.
You really think having the monsters in individual PDFs like that would be something people would pick up on like, drivethruRPG? (To the point that it would be worth actually making a bunch of custom 1 page pdfs?)
Ah, that makes a good deal of sense. I respectfully disagree with Ævux's sentiments then, as it would make the villain I mentioned impossible to build :).I believe Ævux was referring to the suggestion of making Assassin an archetype for the Rogue. Which would prevent any other class from becoming Assassins :)
Actually I think you agree with my sentiments.
Cause my sentiment is that assassin is needed as a PrC so that anyone can go into it. Restricting it to just a single class would make it suck.
Its just one of my many problems with 4e and DDO.
My personal favorite class for assassin is Ranger. They are like the base assassin really.
Also additional classes that grant sneak attack..
Just off the top of my head, there is the low templar. And I think there might also be a variant of the fighter that grants sneak attack too.
JBE has a Ranger archetype with sneak attack instead of favored enemy in our Book of the River Nations: Feats, Spells and Secret Societies supplement.
[/shameless plug]
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JBE has a Ranger archetype with sneak attack instead of favored enemy in our Book of the River Nations: Feats, Spells and Secret Societies supplement.
[/shameless plug]
Slower sneak progression? Because yeah, that's substantially better than a base ranger,
No kidding: you have more HP and BAB than a rogue, and a tough, intelligent animal companion as a flank-buddy.
Hidden Snipers – The gain SA ability, Aim(as a move action can get a bonus to hit), must take bow or crossbow weapon style, and gets poison use. Gives up wild empathy, favored enemy and hunters bond.
So...what's the downside? :)
5 die SA progression instead of 10. When you would gain favored enemy, you gain a sneak attack die. So that's no bonus to hit, no skill bonus vs certain creatures, and unless you take your personal feats for melee combat (a less optimal build since you're limited to archery and crossbow styles only), no flanking. So until you get hide in plain sight at 17th level, you are going to be doing most of your SAs in the surprise round(as a sniper should). But even then, you're going to be doing half he precision damage as a rogue.
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Dale, TOZ' avatar is of a charming rogue holding a rapier.
I'm gonna guess he knows every trick in the book for securing sneak-attacks, and there are lots of them.
D'aww shucks, I may be able to recite the rulebooks from memory, but I'm not all THAT good. :)
That being said, I do play a ranger with SA in Kirth's game when I'm in Houston...
I only just got the APG today, but I have to say I like the ability to give the players some more flavour options when they say they want to play a ninja or pirate or whatever, but they really just want to play a thief or barbarian or wizard that just acts a little bit like a ninja or pirate or whatever. It's nice to not be required to wrangle a thousand different base classes too.
When I first heard about PrCs, I really liked the idea of a character being able to become a Solamnian Knight or Red Wizard of Thay. I immediately realized I didn't actually want a Solamnian Knight or Red Wizard of Thay in my own campaign though, I wanted similar PrCs that were tailored to my own little world and organizations and that's just not something any publisher can do. A lot of the other interesting PrCs amounted to a few cool abilities I could just Frankenstein onto their characters with strings attached. Otherwise, I'd kind of like to see the really cool, but basic ideas like Arcane Trickster and Shadowdancer get full base classes. In all, I don't think it has anything to do with archetypes, I was just never big on PrCs.
Something more like Prestige Ability Templates that you could tack onto whatever else a character is already doing and snatch away if they get themselves kicked out of the club would be something I'd be really interested in from a publisher.